"U.S. And China Exchange Harsh Words Over Territorial..." Topic

… Disputes In The South China Sea.

"U.S. President Barack Obama said Washington is concerned China is using its "sheer size and muscle" to push around smaller nations in the South China Sea, drawing a swift rebuke from Beijing which accused the United States of being the bully.

China's rapid reclamation around seven reefs in the Spratly archipelago of the South China Sea has alarmed other claimants, such as the Philippines and Vietnam, and drawn growing criticism from U.S. government officials and the military.

While the new islands will not overturn U.S. military superiority in the region, workers are building ports and fuel storage depots and possibly two airstrips that experts have said would allow Beijing to project power deep into the maritime heart of Southeast Asia…"

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Amicalement
Armand

China will demand an apology … and get it, via an envoy.

China is NOT about to stop:

One more:

Simple. Either we give in, and let them do what they want, or they'll collect on our debt:

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We better start learning Mandarin!

Dan
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Example, Subi Reef

November 2014:

March 2015:

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Another map :

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Dan

"Simple. Either we give in, and let them do what they want, or they'll collect on our debt:"

You could also go for: Simple, either they give in or we don't pay back those debts… Works both ways you know :-)

China owning US debt isn't a real issue. The majority (65%) of US national debt is owned by Americans. Of the remaining 35% owned outside of the USA, China only has 7%. In comparison Japan also owns 7%.

Also, the USA cannot simply refuse to pay on our debts, as it would also affect the debt owed to American investors.

Witteridderlu: "You could also go for: Simple, either they give in or we don't pay back those debts… Works both ways you know :-)"

Easy:

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And we won't know until after our funds have suddenly and mysteriously vanished. Yet, somehow, the trail of breadcrumbs will always strangely and conveniently lead to N Korea.

Just Google the following to see a few of the incidents we have been told about:

China hacking US

That will then be followed by our Second Great Depression. But we won't have anything to trade with other nations with by then, because we don't manufacture much. We'll just all work the big breadbasket for them.

Dan
PS. Kyote, yes! Get yourself some 15mm present day or near future Chinese and U.S. troops. And, in the meantime, learn Mandarin!!!
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I've got some M1s, AAVs, and Sea Cobra Helos in 1/144th scale, and some T-55s which could be pressed into service for the Chinese.

Still want some Chinese jets in 1/600th scale, from TD, or OO.

I've got a few in 1/300th, but none of the newer, sexier models, like the J-10. Would love to see that in 1/300th, along with a few of the Chinese stealth jobs.

15mm would probably be better for the infantry skirmishes.

Mako11: "15mm would probably be better for the infantry skirmishes."

And for taking over those instantly overnight "platforms"!!!

Subi Reef:

Johnson Reef:

Early phase, on Fiery Cross Reef – Nov 2014:

Now, on Fiery Cross Reef:

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Dan
PS. Call me Dr. Evil but, how many nukes would be required to spark a giant tsunami in that area? And could the tsunami be directed specifically toward those "islands"?

how many nukes would be required to spark a giant tsunami in that area?

More than would ever be practical. Good-sized tsunamis come from 9+ Richter scale earthquakes. The total energy release in such quakes is orders of magnitude higher than what could be achieved with undersea nukes.

Very interesting looking structures.

Many thanks for the pics Dan!

Amicalement
Armand

The platforms look much prettier than oil platforms to fight over. I might have to buy some 20mm Chinese. I have a couple of 1/144 Chinese FAC.
For littoral naval I need some 1/700 PLAN corvettes and frigates and landing craft and…… anyone know who makes them?

Possession is 9 / 10 of the what passes for the law here.

If they can maintain and expand those structures long enough without meeting any actual opposition, they win.

Who's going to force them to take them away? Realistically, only the USA ever could, and equally realistically, they won't.

The question is whether China will stop there, or try to push other claims until they do meet some serious opposition.

For camo ideas, check out this Chinese guard on Johnson South Reef:

NOTE

Collins Reef (aka Johnson North Reef), next door, is currently occupied by Vietnam:

Dan

Thanks for the photos!

Hope they help a little …

… To understand a little better the aggressive nature of the construction projects, and;
… To plan what figures to use and what terrain to make for them

Dan

Figures will always be 15mm, CC. It looks like that Chinese guard on South Johnson is wearing a US Fritz helmet, and I think QRF has some modern troops with AKs and "Russian" webgear with US kevlar helmets.

There's no doubt China will continue pushing, since they've not met any resistance thus far.

Would love to take over one or three of those islands, and open a diving resort.

That clear water, and proximity to nice reefs (which hopefully haven't all been destroyed by their sand-bottom siphoning) looks perfect for shore-based, and small-inflatable diving.

Looking at the photos my inner tree-hugger was thinking about how bad those spots were being ruined. If how the Chinese treat their own homeland is an indicator, I doubt much will be left of the clear water or the reef in short order.

I guessed they one upped the Japanese empire. No need to take atolls when you can make your own.

I have paid my fist "mandarin" lesson…! (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

Great pics ! Love the PRC "Aqua-flage" !

Looking at the photos my inner tree-hugger was thinking about how bad those spots were being ruined. If how the Chinese treat their own homeland is an indicator, I doubt much will be left of the clear water or the reef in short order.

Inner tree-hugger, nothing!

Wanna bet that those sites are going to be devoid of fish to catch in less than 5 years?

To punish them for the reclamation we should withhold releasing any more 'Transformers' or 'Fast & Furious' movies in China.

If we get them to add more chemicals in the air …

Maybe none of what they are doing on the reefs will really ever matter.

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They might eventually get tired of having to make those islands taller and taller.

Dan
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Whoa.. wait… what Eureka Chinese??? Russians, Chechans, and Aussies yes. But modern Chinese? Are you sure you're not talking QRF?

As for gaming this. Well, I guess if you like building buildings on really small tables. It would be a pain moving 15mm in these small spaces.

Also, why bother taking them? Toss a few SSMs or bombs at them to wreck them then interdict anything coming to help them. That would be a lot easier then taking them the old fashion way.

Besides, these aren't serious military bases. They are flag waving forts that are little more than targets for a modern enemy. I'm sure they could bully the light forces that the Philippines and so on could field (the Filipinos don't even have jets or SSMs, and their ships only have light guns! Yikes!).

But they would be in serious trouble if a US Amphib force came rolling in. Their only hope is that the navy and air force can repel a US force. Once the US establishes control over the air and sea forces that would support them their garrisons are in serious trouble.

TGunner: "Besides, these aren't serious military bases. They are flag waving forts that are little more than targets for a modern enemy."

Any of the other contestants (Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei) would have been able to take this early September 1988 flag post from China. Easy:

Nowadays, I think Taiwan might be able to, but they only claim one island and they won't push it and give China any additional reason to put into place an all-out invasion of Taiwan.

I think this might be a picture of Taiwan's only claim, and it's also from a while back:

This is who occupied the disputed Spratly area back in 1996:

In 2009 China declared openly its intention to occupy all of the Spratly area, plus lots more:

My confusion is why this "Disputed Area" in this last map was never simply officially designated to be international waters, by the UN or someone with some such "authority"? Or was it?

Dan
PS. I think the real fault lies on the 16th century person who decided to name that entire area the "South China Sea". So Portugal should be to blame for this mess, don't you think? :)

But Global Warming proponents shouldn't be too concerned about this dispute. If, as they claim, we speed up pollution, then the whole issue will soon become irrelevant:

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For fans, this is the area that will become disputed by just about everyone. This is the future Spratly islands:

Dan

I don't see them. Hey Kyote, could you post a link? Or are they "coming soon"?

TGunner,

Here, you might remember these from 2010:

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But I thought the Eureka 300 club line up was a thing of the past.

Dan
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As far as China owning a lot of US debt goes, the US loaned previous governments of China several billion dollars. About as much as the US owes China, in fact. While the PRC does not want to accept that they owe this debt, if they refuse to honor it (in violation of international laws and standards for loans given to previous governments), they will destroy their own credit.

So if the Chinese attempt to call the US debt they hold, the US could simply tell the Chinese, "we're forgiving all the debt you owe us, and every other nation on Earth will back us on this. Have a nice day."

So what 15mm could serve for Taiwan's military?

Dan

There is no mechanism for 'calling US debt back'. The bonds have maturity dates. They can be sold before then, but if China dumps them all for a low price, they have just done themselves a lot more damage than the USA.

The US does not seem about to default on any debt. And if it was, what's that old saying, 'If you owe $10,000 USD to the bank and cannot pay, you are in trouble. If you owe 10 trillion to the bank and cannot pay, the bank is in trouble.' The figures change over time of course.

In this adage, China is the bank.

Weird!

Dan