"1/72, 1/76, 20mm- more or less all the same?" Topic

Title says it all. Newcomer to this period and a bit confused over the "scales" and sizes of figures. Vehicles seem to be described in terms of 1/72 or 1/76, but figures as "20mm". By my calculations, a 20 mm figure should be equivalent to about 1/87 scale and a 1/72 scale would give a figure around 25 mm high. Anybody throw any light on the subject?

Scale is the eternal question on TMP. What is the definition of scale? TMPers have argued the point for years. If you really want to go insane try reading some or all of the links – which only go back a couple of years.

Public health warning: This subject is a definite health risk.

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IMO as long as all of your infantry figures are the same scale you can use slightly larger or slightly smaller vehicles depending on availability, price, personal preference, etc.
Manufacturers also vary in what they consider the scale to be. So be very careful mixing infantry from different producers.
If you use 20mm infantry you can easily get away with 1/76 or 1/72 vehicles. 1/87 will be a bit too small and 25mm too big.
Here is a table for reference. I left off the decimals and fractions, this is close enough. I hope this helps.
1/87= 18mm
1/80= 20mm
1/76= 21mm
1/72= 22mm
1/64= 25mm

1/72 was orginally a model aircraft scale (1in to 6ft)
1/76 (4mm to 1ft) was orgianlly a model railway scale ("OO scale"), specifically for British outline trains running on 16.5mm (OO/HO) track.
1/87 is the "HO Scale" or 3.5mm to 1ft for European and American outline trains running on 16.5mm track.
The reason for the differences between British outline trains and the rest is that the British railway loading gauge is significantly smaller than the others and so the models could be made slightly bigger.
20mm is the wargame equivalent of 1/76.

You will apreciate that if models are accurately scaled then 1/72 scale models will be slightly bigger than 1/76 models which wil in turn be slightly bigger than 1/87

Depending on how much of a purist you are will determine whether you feel you can mix and match the three different scales. IMHO there is too great a disparity between 1/72 and 1/87, but I will use 1/72 or 1/76 but not in the same unit.

Be aware that you can't always go by the manufacturer's scale designation. Sometimes 1/76 models are described as 1/72 or "OO/HO" or vice versa. The only way to check what they really are is to measure or compare with other models.

An old Minifigs catalogue states that 25mm = 6!, scale is a very malleable concept. Lots of figures over the years have been known to migrate from, for example, 20mm to 25mm without changing size.

What a figure SHOULD be and what it actually is usually different. Do the math yourself: To figure what a size a figure SHOULD be at 25mm to the inch, 6 feet of measurement= 1800 mm. Divide 1800 by the denominator of the "scale"= the size of 6 feet of measurement in mm.

1800mm divided by 25mm= 72 or 1/72nd scale

it works the same in reverse: 1800mm divided by 72 (as in 1/72th scale)= 25mm

1800 divided by 15=120th scale, etc.

Due to many factors (if the master figure is sculpted to the expected fished -production size it will usually be smaller in all 3 dimentions, mold shrinkage from generation to generation, choice of materials used for molds, casting medium, etc,)

Sculptors would need exact shrinkage data and the manufacturer would always need the same batch of mold rubber, etc to have a chance to remain "true to scale" by making the master larger to compensate for shrinkage from master mold to production mold to finished product, in all 3 dimentions.

While there are a lot of great sculptor out there, very, very few can consistently produce designs that will remain true to each other in all 3 dimensions. So best bet is to measure for yourself what is compatible in you eyes or accept that different manufacturers are "close enough" to have fun with.

After all, one size of a figure does NOT help you roll the dice any better than another!

Yes, more or less the same thing.

As Major Bumsore has said above, correctly scaled 1/72 vehicles may look funny next to correctly scaled 1/76 vehicles.

Figures marketed as 20mm are designed to match 1/72 and 1/76 vehicles.
Soft plastic figures like those reviewed on the excellent plasticsoldierreview.com/Index.aspx
site, though often of slightly different heights, are also designed for these scales, though will generally be less bulky than metal miniatures.

-Kosta

I game primarily in historical 20mm…WWII, 1980's (Grenada, Falklands, etc.), Modern, Vietnam, and Zombies (are coming soon!). If you stick with 20mm figures, you can mix them with 1/72nd vehicles and 1/72nd plastic infantry. Personally, I don't mix in 1/76th vehicles because they do look noticeably smaller, and pretty much anything you could need, exists in 1/72nd or 20mm. (Though, I'm still waiting on a 1/72nd Scud Launcher model!)

Also, for civilian vehicles, you can use an assortment from any of the Hotwheels and Matchbox vehicles, especially modern games. There are some other diecast manufacturers out there with other 1/72nd civilian vehicles (Corgi and etc..). I have a box of diecast Hotwheels and Matchbox cars representing 1950's-1970's cars (made since 2000) strictly for my Vietnam era games.

Whatever you do, don't mix in 1/87th vehicles and such, as they are way too small.

David G.
gamerarchitect.blogspot.com

1/72 scale is mathematically 1 foot equals 6 inches, or 1 foot equals 25mm.

Metal figure manufacturers do not as a rule measure human figures the way the IPMS or scale plastic model manufacturers would go about it. The later measure from the top of the head to the bottom of the feet not counting headgear or (ideally) footwear. Metal figure manufacturers measure to the figure's eye level as a rule of thumb, and do not include the headgear.

This is tangled mess started because sculpting figures was for most of my lifetime until relatively recently done with lost wax, and the technique is a difficult one to master, and in smaller scales not so fine tuned as it is today with 3D modeling, etc.

So the metal figure manufacturers all decided to do pretty much their own thing, and no standardization took place in any formal sense (and despite the effort of one lone voice of reason, John McEwan, who tired to get figure manufacturers to standardize their scales the way the model railroading industry had done theirs, and that was back in the 1970s!).

The rough rule of thumb is that what passes for many "20mm scale" figures in metal are close enough for government work to look good with 1/72 scale vehicle *or* 1/76 scale models, but not *both.* You have to compare, and settle on a particular style and size that you like, and proceed from there.

A 1/76 scale model will look distinctively smaller than its 1/72 scale counterpart, so unless you're not too fussy about such things, you're going to have to do some detective work, perhaps buy a few sample figures here and there and decide which manufacturer's sizing of figures you like, and which scale of vehicles you prefer, and build your wargame armies accordingly.

For my part I prefer 1/72 scale, as there is a vastly greater variety of plastic kits available in this scale, with more coming down the pipeline. The plastic figure manufacturers are increasingly producing excellent 1/72 scale figures as well, in a growing diversity of subjects and periods, so building up a war-game army especially for the two World Wars and the Spanish Civil War (Thank You Miniairons!) is becoming both easier and more affordable then when I started historical gaming in these periods about 25 years ago.

Hope this all helps!

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

1/56 = 25mm to the eyes, supposedly, which is how I'm told many figures are measured today (added for completeness).

In the prehistoric era (Pleistocene, I think), the figures used to be measured in total height, and not just to their eyes.

it's worth watching out for plastic vehicle kits to. I've seen Airfix kits labelled as 1/76 and 1/72 over the years and the same vehicle by different manufacturer's be different sizes when both labelled 1/72.

1/72 scale is mathematically 1 foot equals 6 inches, or 1 foot equals 25mm.

Um … no. 1/72 scale is mathematically 1 IN equals 6 FT (1 IN equals 25mm).

1/56 = 25mm to the eyes, supposedly, which is how I'm told many figures are measured today (added for completeness).

Except that "25mm to the eyes" is usually referred to as 28mm !!!

Do the math yourself: To figure what a size a figure SHOULD be at 25mm to the inch, 6 feet of measurement= 1800 mm. Divide 1800 by the denominator of the "scale"= the size of 6 feet of measurement in mm.

1800mm divided by 25mm= 72 or 1/72nd scale

it works the same in reverse: 1800mm divided by 72 (as in 1/72th scale)= 25mm

1800 divided by 15=120th scale, etc.

Which is all fine, except for the slight snag that MOST humans are not 6ft tall …

The scale issue in 20mm can make you nuts. To make matters worse manufacturers especially wargames manufacturers can make their models in either scale and sometimes a combination between the 2. Ready to Roll,Old Skytrex and Britannia are 3 such examples but all make decent models .

I don't mind mixing 1/76th scale and 1/72nd scale vehicles together but not of the same family groups. For example my Shermans(including Achilles) are all 1/72nd but my Stuarts are all 1/76th . They look OK together .

One canard that often comes up in this kind of discussion is the remark that "people are of different heights so it's ok to mix scales".

When you look at a wargaming table you are typically looking at figures 1 to 2 metres away, which is a scale 76 to 152 metres away. If you look at real people standing 150m away from you, however, they all appear to be the same height. Average male human height is about 1.75m (5'9") and everyone, especially in an army, is grouped closely about that mean height. If you have figures of perceptibly different heights from 150m viewing distance, then you have an army of freaks. At that distance the actual differences should be invisible.

Here's a photograph of a London street.

The photo was taken in Old Compton Street, just west of the Prince Edward Theatre, looking east.

The people in the foreground appear to be of different heights. The people at the back, around Ed's Diner, appear pretty much the same height. They are less than 50m away from the photographer. Triple that distance and their heights will appear almost exactly the same.

Equipment should be the same size throughout from figure to figure because Arisaka rifles, shovels and steel helmets don't vary in size within the same army. Boots should be the same size unless you think you can tell somebody's shoe size from 150m away.

It follows from this that figures, whatever the nominal scale, should all be the same height.

There's width as well as height to consider.
Some ranges are very chunky with cartoony weapons, some are more anatomically correct with thinner weapons which are therefore more fragile.

For vehicles, I have 1/72 and 1/76. So long as you don't mix the scales next to one another it's not too obvious usually. There are unusual variations within ranges though. EG the Hasegawa Sherman is very big and would look a bit weird next to other makes.

There is an age factor in all of this – our own and that of the kits. I started modeling in the 60s and wargaming in the 70s – when it was ALL 1/76 (Airfix setting the standard). When metal figures became more available, they tended to call themselves 20mm. Why? because they were already used to talking about 25mm and 30mm as sizes!All us punters just treated these figures as being 1/76. In fact almost all WERE and ARE – eg Dixon, SHQ.

Aircraft kit manufacturers now saw a lucrative market. As someone wrote above,THEY usually produce in 1/72.
Meanwhile the concept of 'heroic' sizes was emerging. (or 'cartoon' as some would call it.)Hoorah! Heroic 20mm happens to come out nearer 1/72. So we got the chunky Britannia style with chunky Britannia vehicles, many 1/72 – or larger.(Their Bren Carrier is more like 1/62. All their Panther based models exactly match 1/72 plastic ones. Their Sdkfz 11 is at least 1/72.)

The 1/72 firms were mainly Japanese. The 1/76 ones were British. Japanese manufacturing squashed British. Then the world changed again. Chinese firms arrived (like Dragon). European firms revitalised (like Revell and to some degree Heller). The latter change saved all Airfix and many Matchbox 1/76 moulds. Both vehicles and figures were promiscuously labelled as 1/76 or 1/72 to suit marketing requirements.

Meanwhile Italeri took this 1/72 thing seriously with figures – and we get their 'monster' plastics, which are usually nearer 25mm in height. In summary – the older the smaller! (I believe some other things work the same way.)

I leave you with a fact. EVERY vehicle you could possibly ever need can be found in 1/76. 1/72 is NOT the most comprehensive scale, just the most easily available. 1/76 has had more time to expand. 1/76 modellers are older and typically wealthier. Also, the less common vehicles are as expensive or more so in 1/72 now. Milicast 1/76 seemed expensive when they were 20% above the injection moulded 1/72 equivalent. They and other 1/76 producers are now cheaper. They and others will give you an excellent resin 6 to 20 part model for £12.95 GBP than costs exactly the same as a dodgy pile of plastic from Ace, or for £15.95 GBP the equivalent to one that costs £17.99 GBP as 200+ parts from Dragon.

Long live SHQ, Milicast and MMS! (ably supported by the numerous artisan outfits with a few models.)

My head hurts………

I blame a lot of this on PSC. Jokingly of course:) However I wonder what would have happened if they opted for 1/76th instead of 1/72nd?The answer is probably the most complete list of plastic vehicles/troops in any one scale if you add their products to existing 1/76th ranges. For reasons only they will know they decided to go for 1/72nd possibly looking at the global market.

Anyway all said and done its just all 20mm as a certain Mr P would say :)

My revival of interest in WW2 has lead me to stick with 1/76 for vehicles, purely because that's what I already had lots of; as Beaumap says above it's therefore partly an age issue. I have some 1/72 interlopers, but mostly it doesn't look right. I am getting fussy in my old age.
I am also inconsistent as I should be using only SHQ for my infantry as they are on the small side, but I don't.

I'm with Cerdic!!!!!
Beginning to wish I had never asked. As far as I understand the above "20mm" figures are actually not 20mm high, but go OK with vehicles scaled to 1/72, although figures at that scale should actually measure 25mm. And it's all the fault of the Japanese, or the Italians or somebody.

Its all 20mm to me…

"although figures at that scale should actually measure 25mm"

Only if they are giants, like the Valiant '1/72nd' scale offerings.

My original Airfix OO/HO figures aren't much bigger than modern '15mm' figures. Newer figures are a tad taller.

The average German prisoner takn in Normandy was 1.6m tall. That's 5' 4". That's what growing up in a depression after losing a war does to you.

In 1/76 scale such a soldier should be 21mm tall.

I'd use 1/72nd with 1/76th without blinking.

"20mm" is a generic term as far as I'm concerned, and covers those two scales.

I have used 1/87th mixed in, but only for vehicles I couldn't get in the other scales, and they look a bit small. Generally I'd avoid doing it.

I agree, Major Bumsore! People are not always the same height! It really strikes home when you see the size of uniforms and shoes that date back just 300 years(+)! A 6 fott high person was almost a giant to the average sized human! So, for all those sticklers for scale accuracy out there, I guess (tongue in cheek) it's OK to use 20mm ancients for the 28mm scale battles and be more historically correct! (Insert smiley here!) 8>)

I'm with Beaumap, but then I'm older than dirt.

All that I care about is the infantry equipment (rifle, helmet, gasmask canister, etc) being the same size. I don't mix vehicles from different manufacturers, either. Whatever the source for that particular chassis is, I use it for ALL the vehicles of that type.

I will happily mix 15mm, 18mm and some small 20mm minis:

From: link

Sure, it's the very rare exception (Kraut is 7'6", Brit is 5'6"), but it illustrates the point quite well.

'Beginning to wish I had never asked.'

I did warn you.

I agree, Major Bumsore! People are not always the same height!

I think you slightly miss my point. Yes, humans vary in size, but as 4th Cuirassier points out, from a distance they mostly look the same height.

So to say that a 1/72 scale figure should be 1in (25mm) tall is to assume that the AVERAGE height of a human is 6ft, when you yourself point out that in fact the average was quite a bit less. At 1/72 scale a 20mm high figure would equate to a real human 4ft 9ins tall (which seems a bit short!). So at 1/72 we really need figures at about 22 or 23mm high. Interesting that a lot of plastic figures come out around this size.

it's OK to use 20mm ancients for the 28mm scale battles and be more historically correct!

Except that in a game using 28mm figures, they represent men of average height, which works out at a scale of (roughly) 1/61.

All that I care about is the infantry equipment (rifle, helmet, gasmask canister, etc) being the same size.

I will happily mix 15mm, 18mm and some small 20mm minis:

But then of course, if the figures are different sizes, then the weapons usually are as well …

I really should have listened to Garrison Miniatures!

I have Matchbox, Nitto and Hasegawa Panther which are 1/76 (Matchbox and Nitto) and 1/72 (Hasegawa). Wondrous to relate they are exactly the same size. The Hasegawa Sherman 76 E8 on the other hand is horrendously overscale. In short, scale is not consistent even from the same manufacturer………..

1 IN equals 6 FT (1 IN equals 25mm).

Typo! Silly me!

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

To follow up on what monoPhagos said. Don't worry about scale. The same manufacturer rarely produces different sets in the same size (esci were notorious for this). Basically, stick with one manufacturer for a certain thing and you'll do fine. If you're getting vehicles, get all vehicles of that type from one place and it will look fine. Putting two tanks next to each other that are different sizes could look weird. Model soldier review is a fantastic resource to check the size of foot before you buy. Most work fine, but there are a few giants. Remember that most older plastic figures were originally designed as toys so exact scale wasn't seen as a concern.

monophagos wrote:

scale is not consistent even from the same manufacturer

Scale is not consistent even within the same model. Tamiya's venerable 1/35 Panzer II (#35009) is a different scale in each axis, and none of them is 1/35.

Airfix's La Haye Sainte likewise is a different scale in each dimension, though excusably so. La Haye Sainte is 50m by 65m, so if it were correctly scaled, it would be 67cm by 90cm in 1/76 scale (and hence a lot less useful).

IIRC it's 1/87 in height, 1/144 in one axis and about 1/200 along the other.

FWIW, the collectory range of Napoleonics Hinchliffe used to sell as 30mm – RHA gun battery, French Old Guard artillery, etc – are now a perfect fit in size alongside Elite Miniatures 28mm figures.

Monophagos – thanks for the Panther tip!

Steaming Dave – a straight answer. NO, the 3 are often not the same and it can really show. The bottom line is that we can all do what we like. However, for me the very idea of, for instance, using Roco Minitanks 1/87 when there are in-scale alternatives makes me want to throw up!

Plastic Soldier Review does a great job for actual height of figures. I just avoid the really tall ones, because they look so stupid next to metals.(4th Cuirassier's photo is the most telling factor here. Averages average out! Extremes stand out in a way that many find 'silly'.)Personally speaking, vehicle mismatches bug me more than figure ones.

The vehicle modelling forums can be very helpful with their comparative reviews. Just don't believe their constant assertions that a model is useless because it lacks those awful link by link tracks. Very old posts on this site can also help. Ironically, when there was less choice, people were more careful!

Thanks everyone for your input and advice. I think that buying one line of figures and one of vehicles may be the way to go, may get some consistency that way. Really prefer metal to plastics, so that may limit my choices.

Yes, it's tricky sometimes.

But then of course, if the figures are different sizes, then the weapons usually are as well …

So you'd think. Sometimes it's even true!

Though I admit I re-armed the 20mm trooper I'm using with a spare weapon from my bits box.

Beaumap – you are most welcome!

steamingdave47
As you're probably beginning to realise after the barrage of information this will drive you mad! I would advise really focussing on what you are wanting to game before buying anything. Then look at which SINGLE manufacturer that makes the most of what you want that is within your price range and produce the kit that you like. Are you a solo gamer? If so then you make all the decisions. If you have opponents lined up then see what they use. In my opinion 1/76 vehicles can't be used with most 1/72 vehicles so stick to one scale for the vehicles. However, slimmer and more proportionate 1/72 figures such as TQD, Pegasus work well with 1/76. And as the other posters have said even the same manufacturers vary. My SHQ Red Army infantry are dwarfed by the newer SHQ Red Army infantry in greatcoats so it can be mightily frustrating. It does depend on how pedantic you want to be. As stated above this is the perennial question on TMP for WW2 in particular. However, there's also a lot of good info that TMP posters have put up, you just need to search for it. Welcome to the asylum my friend.