"A scale question" Topic

Hi everyone,I am used to scales being in metric like 1/72 , 1/56, 1/43 and so on.
The 1/43 one is usually refered to as 40mm.
Would 15mm be 1/100 or 1/110 ?
Thanks in advance!

1/100.

15mm is about 110th scale. PP decided to make it's vehicles to 1/100th because it "looks nice" rather than any claim that 1/100th is 15mm. Assuming an average infantry man is 170cm high (5ft 8") ,then 110 comes out nicely (simple maths). So 15mm is not not not 1/100th. As always however, there is "scale creep". There are some sculptors making 1/100th figures (17mm) if you need to match with 1/100th. This may well be the future, with 15mm disappearing to be replaced by 17mm, then 18mm, then 19mm etc. etc…and hey we have 20mm.! If you want to go as far as 19mm, then 1/89th comes into play.

The last line would be to use the correct scale or a scale that looks good to you. It is going to be your game after all.
I remember when Laing started it all off(1974?). They were very true 15mm!

martin

Good point,and my thoughts are similar,indeed its a problem that derives from using "mm" instead of an actual scale!
Now if most or ALL 15mm vehicle manufacturers use 1/100 for scale so be it…

I prefer 1/100th. Keeps things nice and tidy.

And, like "Royale wit' Cheese," it dovetails nicely into the metric system.

Best,
JBR

This old chestnut again. Most folks will measure 15mm from base to eyes so your 15mm figure will usually be 17mm tall. This works out to 1:100 if you use the same benchmark of a 1.7m tall man that martin uses. Perhaps this will not apply to all manufacturers but it certainly applies to PP and plenty of others.

Khurasan also seems to scale to 1/100, and his minis are on the taller end (up to 18mm tall, boots-to-top-of-head), at least for moderns. Then again, average adult male height in the US seems to be 180cm.

I certainly use 1/100 as much as I can for "15mm" vehicles.

Then again, average adult male height in the US seems to be 180cm.

But weren't people shorter on average in previous centuries?

15mm is only 1/100 if your folk are all 4 1/2 feet tall! AND that chestnut about folk in olden days being shorter is rather strained. Certain times periods, yes. Up to the industrial revolution only the big and strong survived childhood, except the nobility. they never seem to have had trouble filling the ranks of grenadier compnaies!

What scale 15mm is depends on what 15mm actually is. The really old 15mm stuff is often 15mm to the top of the head, so 1/120. There's a lot of current 15mm stuff that's actually 18mm to the top of the head and that is pretty much 1/100. So it really depends on what range your using, and more importantly, how it looks compared to the minis.

It's pretty much the same issue as with 28mm and 'Heroic' 28mm or even 30-32mm…

For me 15-18mm is pretty much 1/100, 28-30mm is 1/60, 6mm is 1/300, etc. Any variation is due to different sized humans…

15mm is only 1/100 if your folk are all 4 1/2 feet tall!

You need to check your maths. 15mm at 1/100 is 1.5m. As 1m is approx 39" that works out at 4'10.5". As most 15mm aren't 15mm and by the time you add the figure base and a base under that they are a lot taller than 15mm – around 18mm. 18mm at 1/100 is 1.8m which works out at 5'10.5", quite a bit taller than the average height of UK males during WW2, which was 5'7.5". Here's the reference for anyone who is interested.
PDF link

@ Fred Cartwright. While I don't dispute your maths, I personally don't think taking the base thickness into account is relevant at all. Some people base vehicles (I don't unless it's really small, unstable or fragile) but – on that basis (pun intended) I ignore bases on both figures (which I keep as thin as possible) and vehicles.

But yeah: my money's on 17.5mm tall figures and 1/100th.

John T

But weren't people shorter on average in previous centuries?

That only seems to be true for the past ~300 years. When industrialization started really taking off, people's nutrition went to hell in a handbasket and resulted in a lot of stunted growth.

But the archaeological finds from the 1200s in the UK show average heights on par with modern humans.

I was certainly shorter in the last century!

I was taller in the last (20th) century. Have lost about an inch since then.

The short answer is most 15mm is only roughly to scale. One brand of PzIV will be different in size from another. Same for figures:

link

I am 1m 94cm so nearly 20mm at 1/100. I have know idea how tall I am feet to my eyes. I understand figures wear hats, helmets etc but measuring someones height to their eyes always seems bizarre.

It does seem odd doesn't it Paul. Yet it was an attempt to bring some sort of consensus with figures of varying periods. For example one may be in no helmet or one which conforms to the head and really isn't an issue. But, for example, how to measure say British Napoleonic infantry in a shako. Does one just guess where the top of the head would be? But we all know trying to enforce any sort of standards on most gamers is akin to herding cats.

It's worth noting that people were on average shorter in the past, but that's "on average." There were still plenty of 6' tall people. Check out this photo from WWI;

link

It's worth noting that people were on average shorter in the past, but that's "on average." There were still plenty of 6' tall people. Check out this photo from WWI;

A very good reason for buying from different manufacturers to take account of variety in people!

15mm's stated scale is 1/100th. Generally the acknowleged standard figures for 15mm in Science Fiction are a Mix of the old Rafm/Citadel Traveller figures, Ground Zero Games SF figures and TableTop's line for Laserburn, in that these three line match well and where prolific across a wide time frame. (Heck for years they were all that really existed in purchasable quantities).

But with all that, when using/finding models a large range of Scales have utility with 15mm, many brands of HO scale vehicles work well (the cheaper ones tend to be on the smallish size often). Large Vehicles in the Matchbox and Hot Wheels standard packages often work well, the cars not so much as the models are scaled to fit the packaging.

On last bit on 1/100th it is a great ground scale, all my terrain is build to 1/100th at the ground scale but tend to be a little taller to match the forced perspective of the figures.

But, for example, how to measure say British Napoleonic infantry in a shako. Does one just guess where the top of the head would be?

The short answer, for me at least, is 'yes': I guess. I've spent over half a century on this planet looking at humans and I've never, at least to my recollection, been out by more than a very small percentage when I look at real people in real hats (motorcycle crash helmets, military head gear, beehive hair do's etc) and estimated where the actual top of their cranium was.

So I guess and I'm pretty much always right. Or at least right enough to be comfortable with my estimations. I've also come to the following conclusions:

That people with big hair or tall hats often seem taller than they really are. This is an illusion.

That some people are actually taller than others, anyway. This is not an illusion.

That I don't overly care.

Oh, one other thing: I've also deduced that, hat, head and body size aside, their AK47s are always the same size!

I honestly wish that – like the model plane people (for example) – us wargamers had got our heads around scale issue back when and just stuck to saying 1/48th or 1/100th. I genuinely think that the toy like miss match of scales we often use, and overly cartoonish figures, detracts from our hobby being taken 'seriously' outside of our own peer group.

I've spent time over the years doing press, radio and TV interviews (mostly to do with promoting Salute) and not presenting ourselves as a bunch of total children playing with toy soldiers is an uphill struggle (and one, I'm sure, many within the hobby, don't consider worth fighting).

But the cartoon approach and missmatched scale of figures – for me at least – adds to the (for want of a better word) 'credibility' issue.

I don't ant perfect scale figures or models: they're too difficult to paint (too difficult for me, anyway). I'm happy to accept 1/100th and '17.5mm to the top of the head from the soe of the feet' little men with, I grant you, legs that are slightly too short and less neck than they need.

I also think that – as the scales get bigger – I'm less happy with the cartoon approach to figure sculpting.

Just my two penn'orth.

John T

Sorry – typos in the (almost) last para. It should read:

I don't want perfect scale figures or models: they're too difficult to paint (too difficult for me, anyway). I'm happy to accept 1/100th and '17.5mm to the top of the head from the sole of the feet' little men with, I grant you, legs that are slightly too short and less neck than they need.

I hate my keyboard…

@nd it h@tes m£…

John T

Part of the problem is talking scales, it is very imprecise and leads to many of this issues. As has been demonstrated by this thread there is no agreement on what "15mm" for example even means! Is it 1/100th, is it 1/108th, is it 1/110th. If we stuck to a standard of say 1/100th and not 15mm would be less problems. For vehicles and equipment, since presumably taken from real examples, all manufacturers items should "play" together well. The dimensions of say a Sherman tank are well known. If using 1/100th as the industry standard then all Shermans would pretty much match.

However the cat is pretty much out of the bag. That's one of the reasons I like this board so much. Can come here and ask which companies pretty much match when it comes to figures and equipment and which ones don't.

I agree but it is a very unfair way of "tilting the scales!",some companies will do figures in a smaller scale then call it 28mm or 15mm so they wont match with other brands.

The solution/answer might be people start to produce a standard 15mm or 28mm in a way it mixes well with other brands like say making them not all that big nor that small…someting in the middle.

Now in terms of human sizes we all know it varies although lots of us do like to pretend all soldiers have thick hands,Ork faces and the same heigth (today this tendency is changing thank the Lord).

It hits the fan when it comes to vehicles : why can people realize it would be better for everyone!? I mean we have people producing 1/60 and calling it 28mm !!! it is not!!! 1/56 is the adopted/correct/chosen scale for 28mm by most of us…Just place a vehicle on 1/60 next to a 28mm figure and take a look!

It is funny isn't it. One of my other hobbies is 1/35th scale armor. The hobby industry here has settled on certain "scales". What is amazing is that you can actually take parts from one kit in 1/35th and use them with a bit of modification on another companies kit since they all scale out correctly. The same is true of figures. Folks will routinely swap say the head from one figure from one company with that of another companies figure. But note they all settled on sizes like 1/35th or 1/48th not say 28mm.

I think too many wargame companies have too much invested in their figures now to change. Perhaps in the future but I do think you may have hit on the fact some do NOT want to have their figures match other companies figures seeing competition.

It's all art…

Many of the figures are not 'true-scale' anyway. They are an almost cartoonish amalgm. Chunkiness originally came about from brittle white metal on small figures, we could overcome this but many of us like the look. Would I rather something 'true-scale' or something that matches my GZG and ArmiesArmys? To that, GW produce something that has an iconic appearance – do their legions of fan boys actually want them to produce figures that have realistically proportioned shoulders / breasts / biceps? I think not…

Let's be honest 1/56 might be the same across a lot of manufacturers, but certainly not all. I've seen cheap (and not so cheap) die cast models with scales printed on the packaging that don't fit at all with reality. The produced a model that fit the standard packaging and still put on a scale label.

Also, everyone knows that the correct scale for 30mm models is 1/60! ;-)

The problem with miniatures compared to scale models is that the proportions are often way out of… Well, proportion. Miniatures that sell well look cool, instead of accurate. I've had some proper 1/100 scale models with proper proportions and those don't fit at all with the general scifi 15/18mm 1/100 miniatures from all of the (scifi) manufacturers…