"Could 800,000 Years Produce 'Morlocks'?" Topic

Maybe it will take 800,000 years for someone to produce "proper" 28mm and 15mm Morlocks:

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Or does anyone know of any in the process of getting produced?

By the way, I love that line in the 2002, "who are you to question 800,000 years of evolution?" (5:50 minutes into clip):

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Ralph: "To get a super long tooth that the Morlocks display, you will need a series of mutations that govern tooth size, tooth eruption rate, embryonic tooth formation rate, etc. Now add to the fact that they have lost 2 fingers. How many mutations are responsible for that? What about their lovely facial features? How many mutations account for those? And then you have 800,000 years to do this? As stated before, that time period would account for a .3% drift in the genetic material from us today."

Just re-read your last post and had to ask . . .

Since that .3% drift is in relation to our current state (and that of time travelers going there from our time), the "Eloi" would have had their own .3% drift as well, right?

Wells seems to describe them as much shorter, and with child-like voices, which is odd, as some of the current predictions also indicate a loss in height:

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I guess living in environments like this for generations prompts such drastic divergence:

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Great discussion. What about potential atmospheric changes due to global warning or differing levels of sun radiation.
Wouldnt this escalate a normal evolution?

Food supplies, the evolution of food sources would also affect mans growth.

I dont think we live in a naturally evolving world when you consider medical breakthroughs, genetic manipulation, atmospheric changes, pollutants, etc.

Considering this, there could be anything walking around in 800,000 years or nothing at all.

Actually, global warming would reduce the amount of solar radiation getting through to the ground in the long term.

The Vitamin D issue has been covered to some extent, but I need to point out that *bone strength* is partially governed by vitamin D absorption: Morlocks would have brittle bones.

Evidence in europe is suggesting that prenatal care and childhood food availability is a great determinant in the final height of the people. This is further backed up by evidence from Asian expat's children growing up in the US. It is highly likely that a poorly-fed group of subterranean dwellers would be short.

I don't know where the key part of a cat's night-vision (the reflective layer on the backside of the eye) is genetically, but it's unlikely to be something that humans could evolve naturally. Is there any ape with 'glowing' eyes like a cat or a dog? However, a change in the proportions of rods and cones is likely. I think you'd also end up with a tendency towards color-blindness.

"Is there any ape with 'glowing' eyes like a cat or a dog?"

The only ones I can think of are some nocturnal primates, which are very removed from us:

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But, who knows, we may have "junk" genes that may click on in prolonged adverse conditions.

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PS. Check out the eyes on the Tarsier:
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Ever been to Wisconsin?

I have a background in Anthropology and Archaeology. If we consider the future "human" races as types of animals:
If the Morlock's diet consisted almost entirely of Eloi meat (delicious), the Morlocks would most certainly be larger and more intelligent, capable of hunting as a group and laying traps (as they did). This is due to the large amount of protein and hypothalamus stored hormones in their diet. If you need a modern day example: compare a US citizen to someone from australia. US peeps are HUGE in comparison because of protein and hormone rich diets.

If they had "evolved" eugenically from modern humans as is implied they would be called something like Homo Sapiens Subterranus, as you said before, but its important to have the Sapiens in there because despite our prejudices against cave dwellers, if the Morlocks could harvest crude oil and use machinery they are most definitely "wise".

Though they might be pale, there is no reason for complete albinism. Vitamin D can be provided by eating yummy eels or even Eloi livers. Calcium from cracking Eloi bones, (mmm can taste it now).
Now for kookyness…some people…not saying who…say…that…Bigfoots and Yowies have glow in the dark eyes…Shh!

RodgeyDodge,

I think you'll like this:

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Ever met an Australian girl?

Australian girls?

Hmmm. I guess elf-like Natalie Imbruglia would play an awesome Weena:

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Though I did like little Yvette Mimeux as Weena too:

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ulujain.org/films/tm

These look interesting:

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Interesting.

While watching a film called "The City Of Ember" tonight, the first thing that came to my mind was . . . "early" Morlocks!

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Very similar to this:

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While we need Vit D from sunlight, a race forced to live underground would select for those requiring less vitamin D- broken bones would limit reproduction.

I love the eyes on these:

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Cool article here:

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But . . . what IF we have already been visited by Eloi . . .

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Is this cool, or what?

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Dan

In case anyone wants to sculpt Morlocks as ape-like, but mostly hairless, here's what the great apes look like under their hairy coats:

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Dan

I know that picture from somewhere. Neither of those sites give the original credits.

With a strong enough selection bias, you can have significant change within 7-10 generations.

Some of the locals on Meth look like they are well on their way to becoming Morlocks.

What about underground people inbreeding?

The white hair could be a genetic defect, there is obvious malformation in the skeletal structure and bone weight by prolonged inbreeding, Congenital glaucoma could be caused by the prolonged period underground as well as genetics and their temperament the signs of high testosterone leveled males beating the lower testosterone males.

The problem for me is the intelligent thought behind feeding the Eloi. Where would a species that is predominately ran by testosterone find the means of higher brain functions necessary to crawl out of a subservient role and become masters through the pacification of their masters?

Also things like the bottleneck effect could speed up the process. You just have to imagine a situation where being short, hairless, white, evil, fanged, etc would help to pass your genes on to the next generation at a better success rate than other non-short, hairless, etc genes. Survival of the fitter (not the fittest, no such thing as fittest) and all that.

Short answer is yes, something like that could happen in theory in 800,000 years.

Something like this, perhaps?

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Dan
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Something like that could happen in MUCH FEWER than 800,000 years.

Considering that nearly the entire Hominin to Hominoid tree evolved in that time, I would say that Yes…

And considering the divergence to Morlock is much less drastic than Hominini to Homonoid, it is likely that it could occur in as few as 100,000 to 50,000 years (maybe even less if we have an active retrovirus working to shape the genotype/phenotype)

The theory used to be that evvolution happend slowly over a long time. More currently it has become more of a sprint and drigft idea. As long as the enviroment doesnt change, the species wont change much, no reason to. But, once there is a major change in enviroment, either the species will make a rapid change to adapt, or it will die out and something new will replace it. And it can happen in 50000 years or a bit less.

So sure you can have your morloks. and eat them to i suppose. Just have to invision the right underground conditions.

Owen

Another thought, you dont even need a rational reason. All the Morlock women think white hair is very hot. And they go polygamos at the same time. so the white haired guys take over pretty quickly. The smaller the base population, the quicker you can achieve this.

So where did gamers evolve from? What women picked for those traits?

Owen

This may be waaaaay off base, but something occurred to me recently. Wouldn't semi-intelligent social creatures who lived underground over time be likely to grow smaller and less violent, more timid and wary of outside disturbances, literally frightened of their own shadows, and therefore increasingly less predatory? Wouldn't it be the Eloi who would be more likely to have evolved underground? I'm not sure how ultra-aggressive Morlockian beings could survive as packs in cramped quarters for long without either (i) fighting each other to the point of extinction, (ii) evolutionary selection for patience and social tolerance that would eventually trend toward timidity and retreat from conflict to the safety of the barrow, or (iii) subordination of the individual Morlock's aggressiveness into a sort of antlike social networking in which subgroups of the Morlocks function as hunters and warriors to forage and defend the colony while others are passive workers, etc.

Something to think about (if not for very long).

Mulligan

Something like that could happen in MUCH FEWER than 800,000 years.

Considering that nearly the entire Hominin to Hominoid tree evolved in that time, I would say that Yes

I'm not sure what you mean by that. The Hominidae family began 25 million years ago when they separated from the Hylobates. Genus Homo split with Genus Pan (the Chimpanzees) about 6 million years ago. Modern Homo came about 2.5 million years ago from Australopithecus. Homo Sapiens separated from Homo Neanderthalensis between 350 and 700,000 years ago. This number will be calculated more accurately now that both genomes have been mapped. The inference is for the low end.

The differences between all the Homo genus skeletons indicate a somewhat less impressive change than from Homo Sapiens to Morlock.

I would say a definite, maybe!

Don't forget human genetic engineering. There might be deliberate attempts by the eloi to create a more tractable servant caste. Such a caste would be high on practical capabilities (math, engineering, physical strength) but deliberately crippled on social skills, looks, etc.

Works great while the Eloi are competent and in charge, but given time they devolve (even if it's just culturally) and suddenly the morlocks through selection become more aggressive again.

Poof! That could happen in much, much less time than 800k years, since most of the work is done by geneticists in a span of a generation or two. Eloi decadence could happen in 500 years or less (the typical lifespan for most empires). All they're waiting for then is a single gene they switched off to switch back on, and it'll spread through the morlocks like wildfire.

40000 years created space marines

No. No, they didn't.

Ever been in a Walmart?