"IF Mankind Was Forced To Live Underground?" Topic

IF, for some reason, humans were at risk of capture and death if caught on the surface of the planet . . .

. . . based on today's technology, could communities of regular civilians survive below ground?

What would they live on? Mushrooms, hydroponics, UV greenhouses, or what?

Vitamin D deficiency would also be an issue, wouldn't it?

CC
PS. By the way, I am not asking about real (or speculated) government facilities.

Considering ground water levels here – about three feet above above ground level if we'ld ever decide to stop pumping – I think breathing might be a prob.

It'd have to be hydroponics or UV greenhouses. I don't think there's enough nutrition in a 'shroom to sustain folks for long.

Why couldn't we live above ground? Who or what is supposed to capture and/or kill us?

I'd expect to see hunter/gatherers becoming greatly revered, as they'd risk capture or death to bring down food to their communities. Thrill seekers would probably try growing tiny patches of crops, scattered over a wide area. Harvest might only happen after dark, or during the twilight hours, but there'd be some one out there doing that.

Biospheres would be cool.

one question with this very interesting idea – who is enforcing capture or death for going onto the surface? Surface dwellers or "our own" government?

I hope the morlocks would let us live underground in peace too :-)

just so long as we dont need to share housing with the Chuds…

"Why couldn't we live above ground? Who or what is supposed to capture and/or kill us?"

Dragons. Aliens. Terminators. Any of these, or something I haven't thought of yet.

I suspect you are right about the scavengers/gatherers that returned successfully from missions topside. They would be considered heroes, if they shared their findings.

But, after a few years, any undestroyed stockpiles would likely run out, making it absolutely necessary to seek out another source of nutrition . . .

CC

I didn't know this about mushrooms . . .

"NUTRITION OF THE WHITE MUSHROOM – back to top
FOOD VALUE per 100g
Energy 13 kcals (55kJ)
Protein 1.8g
Carbohydrate 0.4g
(of which sugars) 0.2g
(starch) 0.2g
Fat 0.5g
Fibre 1.1g
Sodium 5.0mg"
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"Edible mushrooms are used extensively in cooking, in many cuisines (notably Chinese, European and Japanese). Though commonly thought to contain little nutritional value, many varieties of mushrooms are high in fiber and protein, and provide vitamins such as thiamine (B1), riboflavin (B2), niacin (B3), biotin (B7), cobalamins (B12) and ascorbic acid (C), as well as minerals, including iron, selenium, potassium and phosphorus. Mushrooms are getting a higher profile for containing antioxidants Ergothioneine and Selenium."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushroom

And this one is an even better link:
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I guess mushrooms could be a big part of our intake after all!

CC

This might end up being a planet of ant-people!

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CC

As long as it isnt a planet of the apes or a logan's run kind of a deal, although i will accept a mad max or a amtrak war setting.

Hmm what about the "omega man" – surface dwellers are mutant cultists in monks robes. They would be cool enemies.

Turkish Underground Cities:

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rdricketts.com/uncity.html

One of favourite authors Stephen Baxter, wrote a book that relates to this topic. Basically, he postulated that mankind's evolution would change drastically if we were forced to live underground.

Great read! Highly recommended!

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Can anyone say Cleopatra 2525? link

That's what it'll be like. I know, 'cause it was on TV.

Coelacanth1938,

Were those cities just their living quarters when they retired to sleep, or did they live entirely underground? Any information out there on that question?

CC

I can imagine something looking like a cross between the Mines of Moira and the Las Vegas Strip being built down there.

This was a fun film too: imdb.com/title/tt0092532

It could be done. An extreme heat source coupled with a cold area would provide electricity. The trick would be to compute a balance. Give me 50 million dollars, and I could create a balance between animal, plant, and human exsistance. (Biosphere not included).

I read a book, Cities in Flight, I think, where they manufactured food from petroleum. Is that possible?

yeah i think they make velveeta from petroleum

You can use bacteria to convert petroleum into carbohydrates (i.e., sugar). Then you can eat the carbohydrates yourself or feed them to something else you plan to eat later.
You can also add yeast to the mix and you can will have proteins. If you mess with the mixture enough, you can make beer :)

And as long as there is beer, there is hope. ;)

You'd need a source of vitamin D such as sunlamps. kThe great film "A Boy and His Dog" has some interesting insight into subterranean living.

Ah, Doctor Strangeloves Dream:

Not very many humans or not for very long. The energy needs to keep humans going even in the most minimal state is very high.

If you mean for long term living you are limited to places with free energy. A few geothermal sites, Maybe hardened water power sites. All our power systems need lots of watching over (which we do on the surface now). If forces underground Oil and Nukes systems would fall apart in no time (a few days). With energy you can make food. Most likely in tanks of algae grown with UV lamps.

If people can make it to the surface to maintain things from time to time. Nuke power would allow many more sites, But these will not go for too many years before it would have to shut down.

Getting oil to people would be out except where it happens naturaly. And even there the process of conveting to food would be hard.

No matter what you are talking about very very few people could be kept going for more then a month. A sustainable system completely underground with todays tech is very hard. We are very luck to live on the surface with the sun doing so much work for us.

DyeHard
15mmvsf.bagofmice.com/index.html

Given enough time before the 'disaster' hit… couldn't they build nuclear power plants underground… with vents to the surface?
I'm leaving out the need to hide from some topside-dwelling force… and picturing something more like the complex in 'Paranoia'… not that I have a clear picture of how big that was, or what it's limits were… but I remember it seemed to be mostly subterranean.

Wikipedia? We all know how reliable a source that is.

Uh, we all become Dwarves?

Or Dwarfs according to some authors…

Gracias,

Glenn

"What would they live on? Mushrooms"

Mushrooms aren't actually a good thing to grow in a sealed environment -- they inhale oxygen and exhale CO2.

You want something which goes the other way. And grows well under artificial light. So that'll be drugs then…

You know… It really wouldn't be all that hard to accomplish building cities underground.

People could adapt easily to the lack of sunlight with simple UV lights… There are many other sources of power than nuclear (Geothermal would be best, but a simple induction system using the variations between surface and subterranean temperatures would be easiest… Nuclear would be much easier to hide underground, but would have to come up with a solution for dispensing with the spent fuel (heck, if you are underground, and do not need to worry about what is on the surface, just ship it back up topside far enough away from where you live.

Most plants and animals can be raised underground. The japanese have extensive Hydroponic gardens all over their cities. We already know that Chickens can be raised in little cages. It would probably not be much more difficult to raise cows, pigs and goats this way (not too ethical from some people's standpoint, but aren't we talking survival of man here?)

We might actually get bigger if we lived underground. We have better tools to dig with and geology is one of humanity's best subjects.

Are you sure we are not going to be like these?

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CC

Much of this question depends on how little access to the surface humans would have. While it is true the a lot of food can be grown hydroponicly or animals in big sheds, these both depend on a huge input of energy, water, air and the free disposal of waste. Underground these would all be very hard. If teams can go to the surface for a day or two then things open up a lot. But full sealed systems are very very hard. Consider "Biosphere II", see: link
and:
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Not too promising! and that was with lots of solar energy input. If fact 3.15 Acres of input or the equivalent of 17.5 mega watt source and that was for a max of eight people for two years. With a world total of only 340,911 MW for all the existing surface nuke reactors. If we could keep all of those going it would support only 19,480 people at that rate. Now looking at other energy sources we get:
All Carbon Fuels: 68,931 people
Hydro: 21,354 people
Nuclear: 19,480 people
Geothermal +Other: 424 people
Total for all sources on surface as of today: 110,190 people

Very very few of these source will work for more then two days without human care. Now Biosphere II was silly in that it included animals other then humans, some 200 to balance the air. If we eliminate those we could increase the load of humans by perhaps 20. So, now we are looking at something like 400,000 people. This is still assuming all the power generation of the entire world! Now if the underground dwellers can exchange air, water and heat with the outside surface world this number can go up. But that is really just "sheltering" underground, not "living" underground.

An item to think about. US nuke subs, the "Boomers" they would like them to stay under water for a long as possible. This would be the place to test living isolated for the rest of the surface, yet they only stay under for three months or so. They do not grow their own food but have to bring it in. They flush waste heat (and other waste I assume). To close that system is really hard or all that government money would have found a way for this application.

We are talking about something like 0.005% survival rate here. And that is with all the electrical power of the entire world. I am not sure that would be enough people to run all the power plants, much less drill and refine the oil, mine the coal, maintain the pipelines for gas and oil.

Not too hopeful, this is why these ideas are still Sci/Fi!

DyeHard
15mmvsf.bagofmice.com/index.html

"Not too hopeful, this is why these ideas are still Sci/Fi!"

Wow, DyeHard. Great information! Eye-opening too.

If that is the case, then yes . . . only in sci-fi scenarios would that be possible.

Thanks.

CC

What about tapping into thermal vents and other underground sources of energy?

Could this allow the long-term (sutainable) artificial growth plants and fungus for a population of survivors?

CC

A lot of valid points here: The point is, underground habitation is difficult and takes a lot of technology to keep running, and will therefore be reserved for either emergency situations, high profit areas or for other big priority reasons.

Emergency situations or reasons are covered nicely by a Philip K Dick novel, "The Penultimate Truth"; Humanity lives a squalid existence underground while nuclear war rages above . . . Or so they are told – All the governments of the world have found it simpler to have the populace in total control, while the planet heals from decades of pollution.

Profitable areas are of course deep mining operations: Some homes in opal towns in Australia are actually the old mine workings, since they are cool in summer, warm in winter and are protected from dust storms. On planets with unsuitable climates but hugely valuable mineral wealth one could imagine such facilities being built: Perhaps even the conditions there are better for our purposes, such as extremely hot worlds – Tempertaure differentials between the surface and deep below can be exploited for energy using the heat pump principle.

This might not be a help, CC, but I thought I'd add it.

I postulate on some foreign planet that might be bombarded by radiation there would be a need to live underground. Almost normal greenhouse farming could be done if enough sunlight was gathered in dishes on the surface and piped down to the underground rooms.

Overlooked something that has recently been happening in science; The old idea of the carniculture vat, that is a system of growing meat as a large tissue culture has been around for a long time ( Notably in H.Beam Piper's and A Betram Chnadler's stories ) but apart from the unappetising real-world example of Helen Lane* it was considered a bit far fetched; Even as late as a decade or so ago, tissue culture was considered an art form and technicians were chosen to be trained through more a magical talent than knowledge.

Now however the state of the art as it were is different; More biologically compatible plastics for containers, a better understanding of growth regulators in cells, and purer chemical substrates for nutriets has made it possible now to consider tissue sculpture – The making of organs based on biodegradable scaffolds, as in the human ear on the mouse so often seen/misrepresented in the news or the regular making of bladders in vitro – as the growth of the tissues is very reliable.

In fact, a report on this is the "New Scientist" also commented on a trend in studesnt in the field, mostly among vegetarians; The suggestion being to take a biopsy of one's own liver, and culture it as a source of high-grade, iron and mineral rich and more importantly(?!?) ethical source of protein. Leaving that aside, the concept of a large scale prioduction facility for meat ( muscle tissues ) graown in a solution of sugars amd minerals , with traces of fats and simple proteins, could well be feasible within a decade; Indeed, blocks of fish muscle have been grown up to double their original size in vitro in a NASA study as a source of protein for long-endurance missions.

So there is another option for food production in an underground facility.

*Helen Lane was a young woman who died from a particularly odd form of lung cancer in the 1920s; the oddity in these cells was that unlike many cancers they would adhere to an artificai surface and could be cultured for study into anti-cancer treatments and being immortal, the cells continue to survive in culture. If all the cells called HeLa for short currently under study were gathered together, the erstwhile Ms.Lane derived tissue would weigh around 2 metric tonnes.

Interesting.

While watching a film called "The City Of Ember" tonight, the first thing that came to my mind was . . . "early" Morlocks!

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Very similar to this:

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CC
TMP link

I wonder if this modular cave/mine system could be used for underground shelter corridors too:

TMP link

Dan