Help support TMP


"Crocodile Games Jackals As Early Dogs?" Topic


13 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

Please be courteous toward your fellow TMP members.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Ancients Discussion Message Board

Back to the Prehistoric Message Board


Areas of Interest

Ancients

Featured Hobby News Article


Featured Link


Featured Ruleset


Featured Showcase Article

28mm Babylonian Spearmen from Castaway Arts

We look at spearmen from Castaway Arts' new Babylonian line.


Featured Profile Article

The Simtac Tour

The Editor is invited to tour the factory of Simtac, a U.S. manufacturer of figures in nearly all periods, scales, and genres.


Current Poll


Featured Book Review


2,179 hits since 3 Jun 2006
©1994-2025 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Cacique Caribe03 Jun 2006 12:58 a.m. PST

Thanks to input on threads like these, I now have an amazing number of canines for 28mm gaming.

TMP link
TMP link
TMP link
TMP link

MY QUESTION IS THIS . . .

Could these Crocodile Games jackals work as the first canine companions of early Sapiens?

link
link
link

The stand about 15mm at the shoulder, if that means anything.

Thanks.

CC
link

Cacique Caribe03 Jun 2006 1:00 a.m. PST

Sorry. That would have been "they stand about 15mm".

CC

Sane Max03 Jun 2006 1:44 a.m. PST

They look nice…. but I would imagine primitive dogs to look less 'impressive'. These look like a rather cool new pedigree dog to me. Just my IMHO. have you hunted for African Wild Dogs, or Dingoes? Something along that line would look really good to me.

That being said, I do not know if modern Dogcestors were wolves of African Wild Dogs, so feel free to ignore me with a sneer of disdain.

Pat

Lowtardog03 Jun 2006 2:34 a.m. PST

I think they are nice but look a bit like Foxes, I agree with Sane Max, I think early dogs in my eyes would be more short haired mongrel looking such as dingoes but there is a case and a good one for them looking like wolves.

and those Jackals do look very nice

Alxbates03 Jun 2006 5:02 a.m. PST

The jackals are great, excellent sculpts, and could be used as coyotes or large foxes pretty easily… but they don't look much like pictures of wild dogs that I've seen. I think that early domestic dogs probably looked pretty much just like the wolves they were bred from.

Cacique Caribe03 Jun 2006 9:27 a.m. PST

Other than just getting outright wolf miniatures, I would like to get figures that represent the very earliest canid companions . . .

But, from what I gathered in your posts, I guess it all depends on where the dogs were first "domesticated" by early Sapiens (in Europe, Asia or Africa) and where those first dogs came from:
1) Wolf pups, or
2) Wild dog pups

———————————————————
IF we think the African WOLF
(Photos)
These are pictures of the often-forgotten Ethiopian wolf, a much smaller cousing of the wolf (the only wolf species in Africa really):
link
(Description)
link
Names: English: Ethiopian wolf, Abyssinian wolf, Simien fox, Simien jackal, Ethiopian jackal, red jackal. Amharic: ky kebero. Orominiac: jedalla farda, arouyaé.

Description: The Ethiopian wolf has long legs and a long muzzle, resembling a coyote (Canis latrans) in conformation and size. It has an elongated skull with a slender protracted nose and small and widely spaced teeth, especially the premolars. The adult pelage is soft and short, of a distinctive bright tawny rufous colour with a dense whitish to page ginger underfur. The coat is lighter in juveniles, and turns to yellowish in females in during the breeding season.

The throat, chest, a band around the ventral part of the neck, the underparts and inside of limbs are white, with the outline between the red coat and the white markings sharp and well defined. The ears are pointed and broad, their dorsal surface red fringed with long white hairs growing inward from the edge. The tail is a thick black brush with the proximal third white underneath.

Male Ethiopian wolves are significantly larger than females in the Bale Mountains National Park (BMNP) males were 20% larger than females in body mass and 7% . Adult males have a mean mass of 16.2 kg (14.2-19.3 kg) and females 12.8 kg (11.2-14.15 kg). For a detailed description of the species' morphology and craniometry refer to Sillero-Zubiri and Gottelli (1994).
————————————————————————
IF we think the African WILD DOG
(Photos)
link
link
(Description)
link
Names: dsEnglish: African wild dog, Cape hunting dog. French: Lycaon, Le cynhyène, Loup-peint. German: Hyänenhund. Afrikaans: Wildehund. Atese: Apete. Kalenjin: Suyo. Kibena: Liduma. Kibungu: Eminze. Kichagga: Kite kya negereni. Kihehe: Ligwami. Kijita: Omusege. Kikamba: Nzui. Kikuyu: Muthige. Kikuyu, Kimeru: Mbawa. Kiliangulu: Eeyey. Kimaragoli: Imbwa. Kinyaturu: Mbughi. Kinyiha: Inpumpi. Kinyiramba: Mulua. Kisukuma: Mhuge. Kiswahili: Mbwa mwitu. Kitaita: Kikwau. Kizigua: Mauzi. Lwo: Sudhe, Prude. Maiai: Osuyiana. Samburu: Suyian. Sebei: Kulwe, Suyondet.

Description: Unmistakable colour patterns with splotches of yellow, black, white and grey covering the entire body. Some regional variation in colours, but intraspecific variation is large in all places. Large rounded ears, long legs, broad bushy tails, with tips usually, but not always, white. Head-and-body length: 76-112 cm. Tail length: 30-41 cm. Shoulder height: 61-78 cm. Weight: 17-36 kg (monomorphic—mean 25 kg), somewhat larger in the south.

Reproduction: Time of mating: very variable. In the Serengeti, mating starts in November, with 75% of the litters born between January and June. In Kruger National Park, mating occurs April-May. Gestation 69-73 days. Litter size 2-21 average 10-11. Lactation: 10 weeks. Age at sexual maturity: females disperse and approximately 18 months (Frame and Frame 1976), but due to suppression of breeding in all but the dominant male and female, actual age at first reproduction much greater.

In most wild dog packs, a single dominant female in the mother of all the pups, although two or even three females may breed on some occasions. However, all pack members are involved in caring for the pups. Such additional care is vital if pups are to survive: packs rarely manage to raise any pups if they contain fewer than four members.

The pups are born in a den, where they remain for the first three months of life. The mother is confined to the den during early lactation, and relies on other pack members to feed her at this time. Wild dogs deliver food to the mother by regurgitation; later on, they regurgitate to the pups as well. Some pack members also 'babysit' the pups, and chase predators away from the den.

Perhaps because so many helpers are available to assist, wild dogs' litters are enormous: litters number 10-11 pups on average and occasionally contain as many as 21 pups. Pup mortality may be high. There is some evidence to suggest that more pups survive in packs where there are more helpers to assist with their care, but this is certainly not always the case.

As well as a dominant, breeding female, each pack also has a dominant male. Both mating behaviour and genetic analysis indicate that the dominant male fathers most (but not all) of the pups. However, dominant males are usually no more assiduous in caring for the pups than are other males in the pack.

Since wild dog females cannot breed without assistance, in most cases the pack, rather than the individual should be considered the basic unit within the population.

Nice additional links here (including other African canids):
link
——————————————————

So . . . WHERE do you think Sapiens got his first pups (Europe, Asia or Africa), and WHAT pups were they (wolves, wild dogs, etc.)?

CC
link

Cacique Caribe03 Jun 2006 11:27 a.m. PST

For Africa also . . .

I know these came much, MUCH later, but these might provide additional insight on the overall look of the ancestors (the earliest canid companions):

picture
link
link

However, this article says I should be looking at Asian types instead:
link
Yet, this one says Europe (Russia/Germany):
link

I am so confused now!

CC

Roberto Cofresi03 Jun 2006 11:53 a.m. PST

Northern wolves are much bigger also:
link
<<They vary in size based on where they live; the colder the climate is, the heavier they are. The average length of the male wolf is 5.0-5.5 feet from nose to tail, while females are typically 4.75-5.25 feet long. Each stands roughly 2.5 feet off the ground, males being slightly taller. Males can weigh anywhere from 30 to 80 kg, the average being 55 kg; females range from 23 to 55 kg, with an average of 45 kg (Smith, 2002).>>

The Ethiopian ones you mentioned above are much different:
<<Male Ethiopian wolves are significantly larger than females in the Bale Mountains National Park (BMNP) males were 20% larger than females in body mass and 7% . Adult males have a mean mass of 16.2 kg (14.2-19.3 kg) and females 12.8 kg (11.2-14.15 kg). For a detailed description of the species' morphology and craniometry refer to Sillero-Zubiri and Gottelli (1994).>>

African wolf are more like coyotes:
link
link
<<The largest come from northern environs where individuals weighing up to 75 pounds (34 kg, the size of a small female gray wolf Canis lupus) have been recorded. Those from the arid regions of Mexico, on the other hand, average 25 pounds (11.5 kg). Coyotes average 20 inches (51 cm) at the shoulder with a body and tail length of 3-1/2 feet (1.07 m).>>

Thank you.

Cacique Caribe03 Jun 2006 12:01 p.m. PST

Africa, Europe, Asia . . . so many options!

To quote the illustrious Ace Ventura . . . "Aaaalrighty then."

So . . . WHO MAKES "DINGOS" FOR 28MM GAMING? :)

link
link
link
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingo

CC

Sane Max03 Jun 2006 2:36 p.m. PST

Nobody makes Dingoes CC. You are gonna have to buy the jackals, sand them down, reposition the ears…..

Or you can just use them as they are – I will stand and giggle inside 'hahahaha CC couldn't get realistic wild dogs hahahahah' but I doubt anyone else will notice…. or at least VOICE their disdain….. honest they won't.

So. WHY does nobody make a Dingo? They are way cool looking criiters, and would have uses in many a game.

Pat

Cacique Caribe03 Jun 2006 3:21 p.m. PST

Hmm . . . Very interesting indeed.

Is there some sort of conspiracy preventing manufacturers (many of them in Australia itself) from making Dingos and Australian Aboriginals for 28mm gaming?

Things that make you go "Hmm".

CC
PS. True. I don't think I could survive the embarassment of using the wrong canids for the wrong situations and locales. :)

Cacique Caribe03 Jun 2006 3:36 p.m. PST

Let's get right to the source and ask the chaps down under:
TMP link

CC

Cacique Caribe04 Jun 2006 10:31 p.m. PST

It might please some to know that I have just submitted an Eureka 100 Club request for the following:

Dingoes (suitable also as Carolina Dogs – for those needing canine companions for their early Americans)

Description of Figure:

4-6 Dingo dog variants (suitable also as Carolina Dogs, for those who may want to have canines for their early Americans), in various poses (at least these four poses: walking, running, standing alert, sniffing ground)

References:

Please use the following links as a guide:
link
link
link
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingo

Very similar (in general build, size and appearance) to the Carolina Dog:
link
link

Is anyone else interested?

CC

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.