"Australian Prehistory Conspiracy?" Topic

This idea came up as we discussed the complete absence of Dingos and Australian Aboriginals for 28mm gaming in this TMP thread on early canids:
TMP link

As you can tell, we are dying to game and learn more about the area and its history:
TMP link

But, what gives?

Besides, if anyone at all were to do such a range, I would think it would be an Australian company, right?

CC
link

This sounds like one for the Eureka 100 Club. If there is any actual demand for early Australiana (do I sound doubtful? I mean to sound doubtful)this would be the place to turn a wish into actual small metal figures.

Interesting topic. I was expecting a completely different topic.

The american companies do native americans and UK companies do early britons and europeans regularly. Would it require special requests for australians to do <<early autraliana>>? Thank you.

I stand corrected. Eureka does have some scheduled for some time in the future:

link

Sorry, no pictures.

CC

I am unfamiliar with their system. What does the <<1+>> mean? Thank you.

I just submitted the following questions on them:

1) Do you have any information on how many variants are being planned or requested?
2) Will they have pre-firearm weaponry only?
3) And will these be 25mm figures or will they be larger (28-30mm)?

CC

1+ means no-one has actually pre-ordered any yet. Someone has put up the idea but did not follow up with an order commitment.

They need 300 figures pre-ordered for 25/28mm to put the metal lads into production. 600 for 15mm.

I put Australians in Vietnam up for production in 15mm and committed to 100 figures. Which are up 300+ now. So everyone feel free to help the cause.

I'm surprised no manufacturer has ever produced a line of figures for colonial Australia. There have been figures done for other "obscure" periods such as the Maori Wars. Many Aboriginals resisted "White" expansion into their lands and skirmishes were common. In many ways Colonial Australia was far wilder than the "Wild West" and presents endless possibilities for gaming.

As an Australian I suggest that one reason their might not be much demand in Australia for aboriginal miniatures is because of the atrocius history Australia has in dealing with its native population. It is still a sensitive topic in Australia today and many Australians (including our Prime Minister John Howard) have difficulties recognising this rather sordid aspect of Australian history. Up until the 1930's the Australian Government (and it's colonial predecessor) predicted the complete elimination of the Aboriginal population with the combination of disease, armed conflict, slavery and land deprevation whiping out entire communities. In Tasmania, an island state bigger than the UK, the entire aboriginal population was destroyed. When it was realised that the aboriginal population might survive, forced assimilation was used to make Aboriginals more like "whites." Aboriginal children were stolen from their parents and placed into State care or put up for adoption. This policy continued into the 1960's (some say the 1970's). When you combine this with the plight of many Aboriginals today who live in third world conditions, you can probably see why their hasn't been a huge demand for Aboriginal miniatures in Australia.

Greg Blake of Cannon Fodder has sculpted some really excellent indigenous Australians, but has never released them, afaik. I got one from him only by begging to be allowed to purchase one, and it is a very nice sculpt. Greg needs to be encouraged to expand and release his long-percolating "Bushrangers" line.

Chick

The Eureka system (and others – especially Nic Robson – can answer it better than me) is that once a commitment is made by at least 10 customers to buy a total of 150 (was 100, now gone up) figures, Eureka will have them sculpted and cast. Thus, if 10 commit to buy 15+ figures of one type will do as well as 50 who promise to buy 3 each. I imagine that if there are less than ten sign-ups, that's a sure sign of low commercial viability. Nic explains it here eurekamin.com.au/custom.php

If the status is 25+ or 50+, for instance, it's attarcted more interest thus far than a 1+ item.

It's a great scheme, and ideal for projects like this, which must surely be unlikely prospects for a manufactuer who hopes to cover his costs (as they must)

300???

eurekamin.com.au/custom.php

"As soon as the total number of figures requested reaches 150 for the 100 Club and 600 for the 300 Club (the number Eureka needs to break even), and at least ten (10) customers have registered interest, each person who has made an order will be contacted by e-mail to confirm the order is still required.

Once the confirmations have been received, the figure will then be added to our In Production schedule."

Was the 100-Club initially 100?

CC

I guess it would not be such a freak figure request after all, since the figures could pass for natives from . . .

* Australia
* New Guinea
* Andamans

. . . and many others, from prehistory all the way to near-recent times!

If someone with more knowledge on that region and the natives came up with a reasonable proposal that involved only pre-European contact weaponry and attire, I know of a few caveman afficionados who might easily go for a band of 25-30 each, as long as they were made using larger 28-30mm masters.

CC
link

Why not simply add a few throwing sticks to these guys?
link

Or were they THAT different?

"300???"

Opps, sorry about that!

Yeah, it was 100, and the 15mm was 300.

They usually do a good variety of variant figures once it roles into production. I would be interested in a mixture of firearm/spear carrying aborigines.

Not sure, as my knowledge of the area and its peoples is very limited. But I venture to guess, less attire would probably work best.

More importantly, the figures would have to represent entire family groups, not just the warriors.

I am at a loss. Any experts out there?

CC

The "100 club" system is certainly a better way to gauge popularity than "Time to make the 6th Regiment of Silesian Landwehr, I guess. We've already done 1-5…" [ Sorry if I have offended any Prussian Napoleonic geeks. 8^) ]

I've always assumed local Australian manufacturers are driven a great deal more by overseas demand rather than local demand. Local demand being a tiny market compared to the rest of the world. Hence very little Australiana.

I'm unaware of what is taught today about our history, but in my day a good deal more emphasis was placed on our european heritage rather than our colonial past. So it is difficult to have an interest in a past that I know so little about.

"I would be interested in a mixture of firearm/spear carrying aborigines."

Open-handed then, for versatility's sake? I would think the more generous and generic the specifications, the greater the chances of the first set ever being made. After the first packs are out, then the demand will justify additional ones suitable for smaller periods. :)

CC

<<I've always assumed local Australian manufacturers are driven a great deal more by overseas demand rather than local demand. Local demand being a tiny market compared to the rest of the world. Hence very little Australiana.>>

I wonder if there is more demand for native american figures outside of the states. Even if not, local pride would have demanded some ranges made, even if they did not sell as many of them, I would think. Am I looking at this right? Thank you.

Eureka does make Ned Kelly riding a Penny Farthing.
I, a Yank, bought one. I don't know what that proves, if anything.

Eureka's Aboriginals – I had ordered a batch but now I see the count is the starting 1+. I've sent them an updated order, please feel free to join in so we can get these up & running.

I am slowly assembling Australian colonial in 25/28mm, sometimes some of our manufacturers do it as a novelty I think. I actually found some Ned Kelly & police from Mike Broadbent, one of Eureka's main sculpturers. I think the comments above hit it on the head; we are all a little nervous about saying 'aboriginal' out loud, never mind gaming with them.

Iceaxe,

When you ordered the "batch", was there a description of what was initially intended? Thanks.

CC

CC,

An Australian company has the same risks as any other when it comes to deciding which miniatures to produce. They also have a few others to contend with.

Inherently, there is the problem of picking a product that will sell enough to gain back the costs of payroll, utility costs, rent, mold making, alloys, adequate storage space(for product both before and after packaging, as well as the molds), promoting the product etc..

Eureka ran into this with their 100 and 300 club. Even when they secured the pre-orders and payment, they ran into the problem of some of the figures selling so poorly, after the the initial run to satisfy the club participants, that they couldn't justify maintaining the capacity to produce them. Because of this, the requirements for the clubs changed to accommodate. The minimum orders requirement went up, and they reserved the right to not produce figures they felt wouldn't sell well enough, regardless of the pre-orders.

Foundry's solution to this quandary is their adoption of temporary retirement of entire lines and periods. When demand is sufficient, they bring them out of retirement for a while. Kind of an "absence makes the heart grow fonder" principle, while they wait for the saturation of their market to diminish. If a range was not a best seller, in it's previous runs, it's less likely to see the light of a new day.

In the specific instance of the Australian Aboriginals, there is a potential public relations problem. Some of the same clashes of culture occurred, in Australia, as did in America with the Native Americans. Some of the native tribes had the annoying habit of eating people, along with the usual resistance to getting pushed off the good land so some white people could have it. In at least one Australian state, it wasn't until 1939 that legislation requiring justification for shooting an aboriginal was passed. Australia has, to this point, managed to fend off some of the more inane standards of political correctness, but, by selling in markets with less common sense, a company still risks claims of racism and the attendant backlash.

It doesn't matter that the focus of a potential gamer might be to successfully repel the white invader. Nor will it matter that your august group plans to game in a period that white men were a mere wisp in the dream of a shaman. Some people wish to forget the poor treatment we gave one another over the centuries, rather than confront it, game as the downtrodden side, and, perhaps, gain a sliver of insight as to their plight.

It sounds unlikely that this might happen, but consider the experience of several American sports teams and universities. The Florida State University adopted the Seminole as it's mascot, or more accurately, it's identity. This wasn't done to degrade that nation. It was done out of admiration for a tribe that resisted with great tenacity, courage and fighting spirit. If the school wanted to degrade the Seminole Nation, they would have named their team "The oppressive white exterminators" or something similar.

Professional sports has the Braves, Blackhawks, Indians, Chiefs, Redskins and others. Again, the naming of these teams was not done to diminish them, it was done to associate the team with the greatness of the Native American. While to more modern ears, the use of Redskins and Indians is racist, when they were coined as the names of teams, they were part of common language of the era. If a new team opted to adopt those names, I would be leading the protest, but forcing those established teams to change their name reeks of the same type of oppression visited on the Native Americans. If a team wanted to insult the Native American people, they would invoke a derogatory stereotype like "Drunken Injuns" or some such nonsense.

The above ramble is intended to illustrate that one doesn't have to be racist to be labeled as one. Being so labeled can be a fiscal disaster, none the less.

There is also the added distance to market thing to contend with, meaning the selected line will have to be even more popular to convince the distant market that the added cost of the long distance postage is worth it. That alone is enough to exclude a large portion of the war gaming community, who simply can't afford the extra cost.

If you think the market will support the miniatures you want to see, gather the funds to hire a sculptor, a mold maker, a mold cutter, contract with a casting company and give a production run a go. Your Yahoo group has already given you a head start, as you already have an interested potential market.

You just have to prepare yourself for the outcome, whether it is a wild success or a flop. Or, more likely, somewhere in between. Just don't venture what you can't afford to lose. That is what faces each of our favorite miniatures companies each time they contemplate a new release, and more crucially, a line or new setting/era.

I'd personally like to see prehistoric Australia aboriginal and animal miniatures, but I can't commit to purchasing any at this time, as I'm perpetually broke. Many companies find themselves in a similar situation. There is a lot of things they'd like to produce, but can't risk the necessary capital. One of my favorite companies(and families, I love you people!), Hasslefree, went out on a limb to get the magnificent pirate Tom Meier auctioned off. It remains to be seen if the venture pays off. I can't imagine how it wouldn't, but I'm wrong a lot these days.

Recent events in the families of Both the Whites and Meiers are indicative of their humanity. Tom and Carin had a baby, and to help pay off the medical expenses, put the pirate up for auction. While the Whites paid a princely sum, it is far short of the baby doctor's bull, er…, I mean bill. This makes me think that new Thunderbolt Mountain releases will be few and far between, while Tom plys his skills in the more lucrative toy sculpting field to pay off the medical costs. It's not what any of us like, it's just a fact of life.

Sally White has been very open with us about her ailment and hitches arising in the running of Hasslefree. I believe some of us were as heartbroken as the Whites were when we learned of the theft at Salute. I know most of us were as angry. The people that run the companies we love, are just that; people. They have all the problems we run into, plus the passion and daring to run a small company in an increasingly corporate world.

I ask we, the consumers, to contemplate the leap of faith the all-stars of our hobby take with each release. Consider what doing it yourself would entail. I'm not saying don't ask for a particular item or line. They need that to know what we like so they can make it for us. But they have to be able to make a living at it. Just try to understand the amount of effort it takes to get a miniature from an idea in the designers head to a blister pack on the wall of your local game store. Sometimes, if they don't think it will sell well, they have to let a good idea lie.

Ken

When I started to write my latest tome, no one had yet responded. Sorry to those I repeated.

Ken

For those interested in 15mm, Feudal Casting produce a range of Australian Aboriginies titled Koori (a name some Aboriginies call themselves):
link
And here is a link to a Aboriginal HOTT Army (more pictures)
link
There was a series written in Miniature Wargames some years ago about the Kalkadoon Wars in the 1860's. I think Greg Blake wrote it. There have been a few article on Colonial Australia over the years. Wargames Illustrated published one about the Eureka Stockade and another about the Kelly Gang.

I remember seeing some 25mm Ned Kelly figures advertised on rec.games.miniatures.historical a few years ago. Probably the same ones as iceaxe is refering too. iceaxe Are they still available or do you need to ask?

Cheers,

Barry

I guess that, without turning this into a CA or PC issue, this is what needs to be resolved:

1) Is there a demand for them in 28mm?
2) Since Eureka has not even gotten to the point of sculps, what happened to the Greg Blake (Cannon Fodder) sculps?
3) If Blake's sculpts will never be produced, is Eureka still a viable option or are any other Australian and/or non-Australian companies willing to contend with current and/or potential obstacles in order to produce them?

On the demand issue (#1), I think that anyone interested in gaming Australia, New Guinea, the Andamans, and many other geographical areas, from prehistory to near-recent times (including colonial period), would want them to game past periods (however politically incorrect they may seem today).

On items #2 and #3, I have absolutely no idea.

CC

I guess any research on the subject could start by doing a simple image search:

link
link
link
link
images.google.com/images?
svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=new+guinea+headhunters
link
link

CC
PS. If political sensitivities did not get in the way of producing those 15mm examples (above), I don't see why 28mm gamers could not get theirs too.

Let's re-submit that misbehaving link:
link

CC

YES!!! I want a few of these in 28mm:
picture
picture

With these weapons:
picture
picture
link

Not an expert, but they had spears and throwing sticks, and of course the boomerang. And clothing? It depends on what part of Australia they came from and what time of tear it was. This link may help link

An interesting bit of trivia for those who have heard of Woomera a place in the desert of South Australia that was developed in the 1950's for rocketry testing and even launched 2 satellites. It was called wommera after the aboriginal word for spear thrower. Basic picture of a woomera

picture

To answer the above Q's posed to me:
The Eureka 100 club order was by someone else, I jumped on it when I saw it. My order of 20 seems to have disappeared so I have sent an email off to the guys there to add it back on.

Perhaps if any range is billed as 'prehistoric' rather than 'colonial' we may fend off a few of the political/racial/etc upsets. Given that for 60,000 years the figure would look much the same, apart from tribal styles, it would be the most usable range ever produced!

I have 11 of Greg Blake's (Cannon Fodder) aboriginals, all the one pose. I tracked them down having see a photo of one on the web somewhere. At the time, about 3-4 years ago, Greg said they were his last ones. They come open handed. Seeing as he is starting an Australian Colonial range, I'm hoping they will appear again. (Greg, if you're reading). His range currently has 1 figure in it – Poor Ned, of course.

The Broadbent figs I bought from the man himself at the Western Suburbs (Melbourne version) Open Day 2 years ago. Another guy there snickered & made some joke & Mike laughed along, so we can surmise that this isn't a popular period in the minds of many Australians!

"Perhaps if any range is billed as 'prehistoric' rather than 'colonial' we may fend off a few of the political/racial/etc upsets. Given that for 60,000 years the figure would look much the same, apart from tribal styles, it would be the most usable range ever produced!"

Iceaxe, I agree with you 100%.

Do you think that Nic would be inclined to rename the pack(s) to something like "Prehistoric Australasians" or something of that sort? As much as I hate having to bend to PC requirements, if this is what gets the figures produced, then so be it.

If we need just 150 figures to get this project going, and there are sufficient variants to represent family groups and not just warriors (gotta have females and children), and the figures come with throwing sticks, long spears and spearthrowers (and other early weaponry and accessories), I really think it could be VERY easy to get all the initial necessary confirmations just from our Cave Wars group members.

I, for one, could use 30 or so for myself (two bands of 15 or so each; one for me and one for a guest player), and I can build up CW membership interest for the rest.

I am not sufficiently educated on the locale and culture (working on it) to submit a proposal to Eureka. Is that something that you (Iceaxe) or someone else here could get started. As long as the description submitted to Eureka is made known to others, it will be relatively easy to get the required 150.

What do you say?

CC
link

Footnote: I have in my mind a Legends of the Old West book for Australian Colonial. Bands of bushrangers, police, miners, aborigines (don't tell anyone), Irish rebels, British & pre-Australian State troops. If that doesn't get people into the period, nothing will.

CC – I'm in the Cave Wars group as well, and also not far from Eureka, although their opening hours are few. I'll chase it up, seeing as I've already sent an e-mail off to them.

It'd make another good tribe for the Prehistoric Settlement game too, with the non-combatants you mention.

Don't forget, we gotta have Dingos though (maybe 3-4 variants)!!! :)

CC

Getting in a bit late but none the less…

link

an example of the resistence to white colonisation.

Look up Pemulwuy for some good reading on early resistence.

As for the suggestion that making aborignal figures would be considered racist I would contend that is total . I have had aborignal people ask me if I could procure and paint em up some aborignal figs. Then again I have spent 7 or 8 years living with various aborignal families, my father has an aborignal (blood) brother and has been adopted into a cape york tribe. So I guess I have enjoyed more contact with that culture than most gubbas.

As to the look of the figs you cant just have 'generic' figs any more than you can have generic amerindians. Dress, physical appearence, weapons ect were wildly different among the tribes. Cooktown museum has a great collection of north queensland weapons and shields that will illustrate this point.

You cant go about making some figs that encompass australia and papua either. The papuans dress and weaponry is totally different. For example they use the bow where as aborignals do not. When I was a kid we had a house full of papuan weapons, shields, figurines and the like. Jolly interesting stuff it was too.

As for gaming pre settlement warfare, Im afraid it will be rather boring stuff. As it was in most occasions the warriors from each tribe standing off at a distance and launching spears while blocking the incomming fire with wooden or bark shields. Once a few people had been killed or injured it was all over as many deaths would lead to the tribe being unable to support itself. You must keep in mind aborignal tribes existed on the razors edge in terms of their populations. If a woman gave birth to twins one of the babies was immediatly killed as the woman would not be able to carry 2 children and her tools when the tribe went walkabout.

Gaming post settlement warfare might be a bit dodgey as it was usually more of a massacre than a fight. (by one side or the other) Also more of a chance of getting the PC brigades off side. (So while making the figs I dont see as racist gaming post settlement will get the tea ladies upset due to their ignorence more than anything else.)

As I have told you before CC papuan highlands warfare would on the other hand be very gamable. The best bit is they are still at it today with only a few minor cosmetic changes. Shields made from 44 gallon drums have replaced wooden ones (some excellent examples in the victorian art gallery) and home made shotguns are very popular. They also have more spectacular dress which will make a colourful scene on the table.

If you are mad keen for aborignal figs then Eurekas hawians would be a good proxy. Just modify some of the weaponry and add some tribal scaring to the belly arms and chest modelled after your chosen tribe. (hundreds to choose from)
They will look the part for alot of northern NSW/Southern QLD tribes.

All in all I think the main reason no one has produced these figs is people just are not interested in it or know nothing about it. Fair enough I says too, with the hundreds of more interesting conflicts/peoples (from a war gaming point of view) out there these figs will always have a totally limited appeal. Best advice is promote the papuans. Much better wargaming fodder.

Oh and finally Koorie is only used by NSW aborignals. QLD aborignals are Murrys or torres straight islanders and the other areas also have their own name for their people as well.

Thank you for the education. I learn something new every day.

I am purposely interested in a generic look because I am hoping to skirmish scenarios of around 40-60,000 BCE, when tribal differentiations were (we think) non-existent, even between Australia and New Guinea, and when the vegetation in many parts of Australia was still like that of New Guinea (if the BBC and the Discovery Channel can be believed).

Though this is what I am after . . .

link
link
link

. . . I still would like for gamers of other periods to benefit. At least it could spark additional specialized packs suitable for later periods.

CC

Iceaxe,
For Australian colonial, you may also add the Qld Shearer's War which involved a major callout of the Qld armed forces including volunteers. It involved cavalry as well, though I can't recall if the Brisbane artillery group were called out. There are a couple good books on the military side, though they are not complete. For example, my home town does not feature except in the trials, though 50 militia were sent from here. If necessary, send me a private email and I will collate what I have which doesn't show in the usual histories. While individual skirmishes would be quite uninteresting, I think it could be formed into a campaign setting which would make the occassional gunfire and bouts of arson of interest.

For Qld at least, you will need to also include mounted native troopers brought up from down south to pacify the natives under the direction of white officers. I am not too knowledgable on this area, despite one of the early police barracks being not too far off. Some of the early farmsteads had fortified barns, essentially a solid timber box with roof and firing loopholes. Generally the natives gave up fairly quickly if they were held out. I have seen one of these barns slightly north of where I am, but neglected to take photos or sketches at the time. It may be time to return before bushfires strike just in case.

The threats of invasion during the colonial period by Germany and Russia are quite interesting what if scenarios, which was th emajor reason for the formation of state militias up north at least.

I agree with the Scurvy pirate, the early settlement conflicts and earlier are not that gameable if you are trying to be historical. Militarily interesting, but quite dull on the table.

As part of my education on that geographical area, I have just ordered this book:

link
link

I am still looking for books specifically on prehistoric/Pleistocene Australians (of 60,000 BCE or thereabouts).

CC

El Scurvo,

I agree, it is BLEEP. Just as it was when people complained that Foundry was being racist because those people felt that the tribals in the Darkest Africa range were being deliberately sculpted to look ape-like. To my knowledge, those complaining were not African peoples. They complained none the less.

Transposing myself into operating a small miniatures company, I would almost certainly risk the economic fallout of producing controversial subjects that I think might sell well. I do have to question if I would risk the welfare of my family, or those of the other employees of the company, in doing so.

Ken

CC,

Don't limit Yourself to just the Australasian geography. It's probably old news to you, but might be of some interest to others:

link

It kind of hints that mega-fauna wasn't the only thing the land bridge crossers made extinct in the Americas.

Ken

El Scurvo,
I've been asked the same question by a Aboriginal friends of mine. They wouldn't be bothered by it, though the guys I grew up with and others that I know are pretty laid back. Here in southern South Australia most of the Aboriginals I know call themselves Nungas.

Those pics are of northen aboriginals CC. I would guess the kimberly region.

oh and a movie came out recently called 10 canoes or something similar set tens of thousands of years ago in australia. Right up your alley I would think.

El Scurvo, this is indeed fantastic:

link
link
link
link

Is this the first movie to ever actually deal with the topic of ancient Australians?

CC

For those intereste, of the above questions submitted to Eureka . . .

1) Do you have any information on how many variants are being planned or requested?
2) Will they have pre-firearm weaponry only?
3) And will these be 25mm figures or will they be larger (28-30mm)?

Here are the responses from Nic:

1)As per the usual 100 Club rules, if we manage to receive 150+ pre-orders we will make a minimum of four poses. So far we have received one pre-order, so it doesn't appear that this is going to be a production item for a long time yet.

2)Pre-1800 would preclude any of them having firearms.

3)As all our figures are 28mm, unless specifically requested, these will be 28mm as well.

CC

Just to get the period started, I was thinking that this could be submitted (to Eureka or elsewhere) as a request for 3-pack set:

A – Hunting Group: 4 adult warriors (open handed or with boomerangs and javelins/spears), a young (newly-initiated) warrior and a leader = 6 figures (each a unique variant)

B – Non-Hunters: A tribal elder (or shaman), a youngster and 4 women (one pregnant or with an infant, one elderly and two others) = 6 figures (each a unique variant)

C – Dingoes: A pack with 4 dingo (each a unique variant)

Would this interest anyone?

CC

I just submitted my request for 24 of the Eureka figures to be made:
link

I guess someone will (I hope) start one for dingoes?

CC

It might please some to know that I have just submitted an Eureka 100 Club request for the following:

Dingoes (suitable also as Carolina Dogs – for those needing canine companions for their early Americans)

Description of Figure:

4-6 Dingo dog variants (suitable also as Carolina Dogs, for those who may want to have canines for their early Americans), in various poses (at least these four poses: walking, running, standing alert, sniffing ground)

References:

Please use the following links as a guide:
link
link
link
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingo

Very similar (in general build, size and appearance) to the Carolina Dog:
link
link

Is anyone else interested?

CC

I hate to break your record attempt at multiple posts in a row, but as a general comment how many waves of inbound migratory peoples has Australia had in 60,000 years prior to the arrival of whites? I seem to recall at least 3 distinct migratory waves coming through replacing those earlier.