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"JSU Uniform Design Contest - Thanks for nothing" Topic


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2,655 hits since 15 Dec 2006
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Brushie15 Dec 2006 2:46 a.m. PST

Can someone tell me what exactly this has to do with the hobby? The hobby struggles for acceptance as it is (which ordinarily doesn't bother me greatly), but this contest leaves me feeling deeply uncomfortable.
I am truly not trawling to start a flame war, but I don't see the relevance to wargaming, modelling etc, after all, this is 'The Miniatures Page' which I took to mean miniatures be they metal, plastic, paper etc, historical/sci-fi/fantasy etc, or any wargaming/modelling subject.

alien BLOODY HELL surfer15 Dec 2006 2:55 a.m. PST

TMP now covers a lot more than wargaming related subjects. There's a thread somewhere discussing the JSU contest. Most people to be honest unless they have issues are not bothered with it and take it for what it is – a manga/anime contest. Not a schoolgirl leering contest – and to be frank, anyone who looks at it like that IMHO is a bit disturbed.

coopman15 Dec 2006 3:24 a.m. PST

I'm not happy about this being allowed/promoted here either. I am just hoping that after this uniform design contest is over the topic will just go away.

Arteis Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 3:49 a.m. PST

To me it is not so much "schoolgirl leering", as just plain childish.

Of course, I guess our whole hobby would be regarded as childish by some … but designing school girls costumes with guns seems childish to the point of embarrasment to me.

While from the cotroversy I have learned that Japanese school girls are apparently part of the anime/manga culture, and that there is a very slight relevance to the fringes of wargaming, I feel there could be a lot more appropriate competitions here on TMP.

How about a "design a uniform for a fictional 18th centruy country" competition, or "design a WW2 tank that never was", or even "design a new Warhammer-style race"? To me, these would seem far more suitable topics for a competition of this sort.

RavenscraftCybernetics Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 4:02 a.m. PST

THose are good suggestions Arteis, now that the ice is broken with the JSU contest, (though actually it started with the bloodbowl contest)we can have more uniform design contests. I was unable to submit an entry due to reformating my computer last week. perhaps I'll be able to get an entry into the next uniform design.

Napoleon III Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 4:45 a.m. PST

Brushie – while many fellow TMPers agree with you, I feel this has been talked to death already: TMP link

Brushie15 Dec 2006 4:48 a.m. PST

Napoleon lll – My apologies & thanks for the link. Have been away for a couple of days and missed it. Glad I'm not the only person to feel this is inappropriate.

Thanks

Personal logo Dances With Words Supporting Member of TMP Fezian15 Dec 2006 5:22 a.m. PST

So what about 'Macho Women with Guns'….'Bat-Winged Bimbos from Hello-kitty…or 'Nuns with Guns on Motorcycles'???

Manga Schoolgirl MINIS are out there…GZG has some and there are others converted/convertable from several mfgs'…

It's a bit of 'fluff' tis true…but 'fun fluff' and just as some folks are NOT INTO it JSU…some folks are BORED TO TEARS about Napoleonics, flag and banner discussions, GW bashing and so on and so fourth….

Remember…TMP is 'Bill's house' and we are here by 'invitation'…and there are a lot of folks who ARE 'interested' in the idea of JSU/manga-rpg/wargaming and such in a 'humorous' vein….

Personally…I get sick an tired of Zombie topics or Zardoz images ALWAYS popping up…BUT…it is just as 'VALID' a genre' as anything else and I finally decided to 'join in' and just have 'fun' with it…

At the SAME time…I also ask serious questions about things I need to know or find or am hopeing that others might have information or links to…and 99.9% of the time…TMP'ers have responded almost IMMEDIATELY with the information (and then SOME!) that I was looking for!

And what's more…I usually find out that I wasn't the only one that wanted to know…and a whole bunch of new 'networking/new contacts' ends up being made!

So if JSU 'bugs' you…well, 'different strokes for different folks'…maybe you should start a contest/poll on something YOU are interested in…

BUT…if someone decides it's not THEIR 'cup of tea' or that it is 'silly' or 'a waste of time'…etc…try not to take it 'personally' because YOUR 'pet subject/project' isn't as high on other's list as it is yours….

That's why we have MORE than one area/topic/thread etc and all the different areas to 'explore' and share in on TMP…

I can 'appreciate' your lack of 'interest' in the subject…and I'm 'neither for nor against apathy' on it myself….but it is JUST as 'valid' a poll/subject or area of interest as any other on this board…and you NEED to understand that.

Live and let live…or…'don't wee on my tree and I won't wee on yours'….okey dokey???

Carpe' Tentacle'um of the lost sushi bar..
Sgt DWW…bartentacle on duty….

Buff Orpington Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 5:57 a.m. PST

Thanks DwW, I was sitting happily with the majority thinking that this has nothing to do with the hobby or me till your post arrived. Then I had to look at my collection. MWwG, check… NwG with or without motorcycles, check … assorted Killer Bimbos is bikinis, check.
I think what unsettled people is that there are other, less innocent areas of japanese cartoon art featuring schoolgirls and we were feeling tainted by association.

Lentulus Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 6:15 a.m. PST

"Live and let live…or…'don't wee on my tree and I won't wee on yours'….okey dokey???"

Hear hear. I don't much care about young females in JSUs unless they are in the Red Army, but then I just don't read the threads. Hey, that was hard.

This place is cheap, interestinging, and last I heard *not* a democracy.

White Elks 10 String Guitar Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 6:20 a.m. PST

Well Stated, DWW.

Martin Rapier15 Dec 2006 7:07 a.m. PST

"..and last I heard *not* a democracy…"

Which doesn't mean we can't complain about stuff we don't like.

astronomican Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 7:22 a.m. PST

"TMP now covers a lot more than wargaming related subjects."

Someone recently stated that TMP is like their local pub where any topic can be discussed. To me, TMP was a strong beverage that had some bite in it – nowadays, it's now so watered down that any toddler can urinate something stronger.

Bring back "The Miniatures Page – a web magazine for miniature wargamers!" : TMP link

"Which doesn't mean we can't complain about stuff we don't like."

True, but the TMP Thought/Opinion Police will hound you for saying anything.

Nick Nascati Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 7:40 a.m. PST

DWW,
I agree with you. None of the things you mentioned will EVER find their way into my gaming room. Like I said before, I just don't get the whole zombie fascination.

MONGREL1 Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 9:00 a.m. PST

"Remember…TMP is 'Bill's house' and we are here by 'invitation'"

Bleeped text, why does every Deleted by Moderator trot out this pathetic line every time somebody complains about something?

Hello! It's not a bloody house, it's an internet page, it's not real life, we are not sitting in his living room and apart from that, he makes a tidy sum from his "invited guests" or at least the ones who pay, which I am not any longer, due to the volume of dross that has replaced the genuine content which first attracted me here.

Nick Nascati Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 9:13 a.m. PST

Frank,
Maybe if enough vendors start voicing their opinion on the current "direction" of TMP, Bill will take notice and re-focus the content. For me, looking once a day will now be more than enough.

jizbrand Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 9:18 a.m. PST

Normally, I'll look at TMP at work and I don't worry about people thinking it is nerdy. But with all the schoolgirls on the front page, lately, I haven't felt comfortable opening the page when other people are around.

Shagnasty Supporting Member of TMP15 Dec 2006 9:22 a.m. PST

Despite my phobias about any non-JRRT fantasy subjects and GW I find most things on TMP to be of at least passing interest. While I'm generally more fascinated by the button arrangement on Brit Naps, the range of Russo-Japanese battleship guns, or the type of camo on, preferably dead, SS troops I can enjoy the whimsy of JSUs, although the blonde-haired blue-eyed ones throw me. Onward through the Fog!

Porthos15 Dec 2006 9:23 a.m. PST

I am interested in Japanese School Girls because I want to add Gogo Yubari (Ms Chiaki Kuriyama) to my collection. For those who do not immediately recognize her: she is the bodyguard of O-Ren Ishii (Ms Lucy Liu) in the movie Kill Bill. The JSG's are for our hobby especially interesting because of the combination of innocence and violence, and should not be missed in any "modern" game. So there is absolutely no reason at all to suddenly point fingers (which fortunately most TMP-ers do not !) to "dirty old men". Not all of the TMP-ers are old, or even men ! (I leave the comment on "dirty minds" to others – personally I feel a dirty mind is a joy forever. ;-)))

shaloop Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 9:23 a.m. PST

I'd just like to third Arteis' suggestion. It would be great to see more design/illustration contests at TMP. Preferably with a stronger relevance to the wargaming hobby. Perhaps another uniform design contest but this time let the membership decide the theme? Personally I'd like to see something with a historical or alternate history theme as there's already such a surplus of sci-fi/fantasy art out there.

MONGREL1 Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 9:26 a.m. PST

Nick, I haven't been on that thread, probably due to preconcieved ideas about the content, but I'll go find it and have a look on your say-so :-)

Cheers

Frank

MONGREL1 Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 9:39 a.m. PST

Nick,

I can't find a thread like the one you mentiond . . . could you give me a clue?

Personal logo Miniatureships Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Dec 2006 9:53 a.m. PST

Actually, I find it interesting that both parties get easily upset in terms of opposite opinions, both here an on other threads. Remember, they are just opinions, whether they be of a consevrative nature or from a more non-conservative nature. We may not agree with the other person's opinion, but can we treat that person with respect when disagreeing with them?

The JSG contest is just one of those contest were you are going to get two opposing views, each with their own justification for stating what they view as being opporate or not opporated.

Do I support this type of contest? Not really, but I can understand both parties, those who do object and those who find it non-objectionable. As related to Miniature Wargaming, I find that many of the same people who are drawn to fantasy and computer wargaming are also drawn to Animie.

My sons have a bunch on Manga DVD's, and they are both computer gamers (the type of computer games where you interact wtih other gamers on line). One because of the artistic value in the DVD's, and his goal towards computer animation. Another son buys his from Japan (or use to until the dollar went so low and shipping went way up), because he used the DVD's to keep up and improve his Japanesse language skills – he watches the DVD's in Japaness with Japaness subtitles. But personally, I really don't care for them all that much due to the amount of screaming it seems that all the female characters do in the DVD's.

I am sure in the future, we will see other design contest, each with a chorus of this is silly followed by a response of this great.

Joel

Hundvig Fezian Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 9:56 a.m. PST

Can someone tell me what exactly this has to do with the hobby?

Sure.

Schoolgirl assassin figures:

link

The Project A-Ko girls:

link

Shadowforge's manga range:

shadowforge.com.au

There are probably more out there, but I've made my point. Whether you like them or not, it's as valid a niche in the industry as any. From the way Bill's been teasing, I'd guess he's got a gaming project in mind (probably inspired by a recent RPG with a silly name) and he's hunting paint schemes for it. If you don't like the subject, ignore it. I don't give a damn about (for ex) Napoleonics, but you won't hear me complaining about the amount of space it takes up on the front page.

Rich

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian15 Dec 2006 10:11 a.m. PST

The hobby struggles for acceptance as it is (which ordinarily doesn't bother me greatly), but this contest leaves me feeling deeply uncomfortable.

Perhaps this would be an opportune time to mention that this contest had more female participation than any previous contest I can remember.

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP15 Dec 2006 10:13 a.m. PST

The idea caught Bill's fancy after the release of a manga/anime style RPG set in a Japanese school for demon-fighting psychics. Since modern-day RPGs are certainly part of the wargaming and miniatures hobby, obviously that sparked the contest.

For the most part, I found it rather humorous. And the winning entry looks to me like something Hasslefree might produce… and it darn well would sell.

You can't tell me that a "Teenage Psychics Save the World" skirmish game wouldn't sell. (Think of it as sort of a Space Hulk/dungeon crawl approach.)

I do find it odd that there are complaints that TMP has less miniatures content on it. Actually, there seems to be more… more hobby news, more hobby advertisers, more hobby genres. Most of the time, I see news stories that are very much hobby related, though they may not fit my personal niche.
There has been an increase in side discussions (books, movies, sports, food), but those are just threads, and they haven't supplanted any of the "pure" hobby discussion or information either.

So it seems to me there's not really all that much to gripe about. Unless someone just happen to like griping, which I suspect might be the case around here. The term "grognard" exists for a reason. :-)

aecurtis Fezian Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 11:03 a.m. PST

Again, I'll restse what I posted on another thread:

My 17yo reads a number of manga series, such as "Bleach" and "From Far Away". She's picked up the habit from her girlfirends, and they loan series to each other. Yesterday, I was explaining the TMP schoolgirl uniform controversy to her, and she thought it pretty creepy that a bunch of the people she typically sees at game conventions would have any interest in the subject whatsoever.

And she is well aware of the *other* sorts of Japanese media involving schoolgirls. I really don't understand how some of you manage to blank out the connection.

Allen

Goldwyrm Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 11:16 a.m. PST

I would like to share my negative reaction.

I'd preface by saying that figures in the style of schoolgirls with guns are one thing, much like Waffen SS figures are acceptable when using them as well detailed and painted markers in a game. But anything taken to the extreme is..extreme and less tolerated. I recognize that we all are calibrated to different levels of what we find acceptable.

I also certainly don't want to detract from the creative artists in the contest. My issue with the contest is it being based around an RPG called "Panty Explosion". The title really is pure fetish marketing and a fetish that is on the extreme fringe or beyond the tolerance of most societies. A reality check is that just because a bunch of people can get together and think it is ok doesn't necessarily make it ok. Running a contest seems to lend legitimacy to something I feel lacks legitimacy.

I was being honest when I said, in the poll topic:

TMP link

,that I'd be embarrassed to be around such a game, mostly because of the way it is marketed and how it is likely to be perceived. This RPG, played by *our typical demographic*, I find to be very very very odd. The only thing worse might be seeing TMPers LARPing Panty Explosion.

But do as you all will. Free world and all that. I'll still be turning and walking away if I come upon people playing the game.

Connard Sage Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 11:44 a.m. PST

Ah, I hadn't realised that all this brouhaha was designed to create a controversy in order to promote a rather silly RPG – working on the idea that any publicity is good publicity

wrong

Jana Wang Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 12:18 p.m. PST

I was going to ask the same question myself. Was this supposed to be a contest to come up with a painting scheme for miniatures? I didn't see that mentioned in the blurbs. I wouldn't have a problem with it if it was, but I didn't see that the design contest had anything to do with miniatures or gaming. I know there's anime theme games out there, but no connection was ever made to one. Was it?

Goldwyrm Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 12:32 p.m. PST

Jana, The poll here was a lead in to the contest and the poll description describes some of the game. It was a news article previously:

TMP link

Goldwyrm Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 12:40 p.m. PST

Correction. That was the poll link and I didn't see an immediate news link, so I retract the news article bit. I was confused because it was a product announcement in a message board topic instead of on the main page as a news article:

TMP link

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian15 Dec 2006 1:40 p.m. PST

…I hadn't realised that all this brouhaha was designed to create a controversy in order to promote a rather silly RPG…

The contest has no formal connection to the Panty Explosion RPG.

The publisher of the RPG probably isn't even aware of TMP.

The contest was not intended to raise any brouhaha.

The RPG has a strange name, but looks to be a solid game to me. I'm tempted to run a game of it and try it out. If I do, I'll report back on TMP…

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian15 Dec 2006 1:52 p.m. PST

"Remember…TMP is 'Bill's house' and we are here by 'invitation'"

It's not a bloody house, it's an internet page, it's not real life, we are not sitting in his living room and apart from that, he makes a tidy sum from his "invited guests" or at least the ones who pay…

Not sure I get your point.

Goldwyrm Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 2:15 p.m. PST

The publisher of the RPG probably isn't even aware of TMP.

Perhaps, but the author of the game is posting here. For example in this topic:
TMP link

f you want to play a Chinese or Korean feel free. In our first playtest we had a Korean PC who was voted least popular almost everytime due to her ethnicity.

I've heard PE compared to numerous other pop culture and historical references but this is the first time I've seen Harry Potter.

Our game is slightly more sexual than Harry Potter since we discuss statistics of some sexual issues in Japan.

Maybe the author will post more of his thoughts. Because based on the above post, the game being about school age girls and the game title, the conclusion I'm drawing is not a positive one.

brucka15 Dec 2006 3:31 p.m. PST

Holy Moses! As I said on previous thread, Allen's comments seem to be the most astute/intuitive. If seventeen year old girls are weirded out about the interest in this genre by gamers, then I do not want to be associated with anything remotely connected to it.
It reminds me of a friend of mine that took her pre-teen niece to the Brittney Spears movie, and curtly turned around when seeing all the 40+ year old men in line (alone – in raincoats). I don't know if there may have been anything wrong with the thoughts of the TMP'ers that participated in this, but thoughts and actions can be easily misconstrued and perceptions are sometimes important. Add to this the racially and sexually charged nature of the designers comments and one begins to wonder.
Prurience is one thing – freaking out teens, family, co-workers is quite another.

brucka15 Dec 2006 3:32 p.m. PST

And my favorite mantra:
"Just because you can do something, doesn't necessarily mean you should".

Connard Sage Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 3:33 p.m. PST

Call it Hentai Explosion then, it will leave it's potential customers in no doubt about its subject matter

Daryl G Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 6:03 p.m. PST

If you dont like the direction the ship is sailing.. then jump overboard (please)

Daryl G Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 6:06 p.m. PST

brouhaha.


What a great word.. :)

Goldwyrm Inactive Member15 Dec 2006 6:25 p.m. PST

"If you dont like the direction the ship is sailing.. then jump overboard (please)"

Avast! matey, there be another way. Stifle us shipmates and you won't have to see our posts from yer perch on the Poopdeck.

DAWGIE Inactive Member16 Dec 2006 9:30 a.m. PST

THIS, LIKE A LOT OF TMP STUFF LEAVES ME STUNNED AND WONDERING JUST WFTO IS GOING ON "OUT THERE" . . .

DAWGIE

Shagnasty Supporting Member of TMP16 Dec 2006 10:20 a.m. PST

DAWGIE you don't really want to know.

Daryl G Inactive Member16 Dec 2006 2:55 p.m. PST

TMP doesnt owe anyone anything, I fail to see why people think it does.

Daryl G Inactive Member16 Dec 2006 2:58 p.m. PST

And its mostly those that DONT contribute towards the running of the site that complain the most.

Gaz the Bald Inactive Member16 Dec 2006 5:11 p.m. PST

"And its mostly those that DONT contribute towards the running of the site that complain the most."

It's also those that don't 'contribute' to the site, i.e. don't make a financial contribution, that make most of the postings to the site content and keep TMP the mine of information it's become. They're also the reason companies advertise here. If you don't think that's fair, then stop paying or ask Bill to make it a premium site. 'Course, then it'd be just another site for like minded individuals to share like minded thoughts about like minded topics.


"TMP doesnt owe anyone anything, I fail to see why people think it does."

A person pointing out that they find something distasteful or that they don't agree with a point of view doesn't mean that they feel that they're owed anything. The original posting wasn't inflamatory, libellous or offensive, so what's the issue? It's all part of that thing called freedom of speech: having a handle like 'Oi This Is England' I thought you'd have known about that (but with 87 stifles to you credit, maybe not).

G.

quantumcat Inactive Member17 Dec 2006 11:33 a.m. PST

I didn't feel artistic enough to compete but I had a vague
notion of 'taking back' the theme from the whole "thirteen
is legal here" scene to a more comfortable "grrrrrrlll
power" bit.

A few realistic (non BESM) drawings based on Ninjas or
vivandieres or some other modest "rational garment" might
have seemed practical and authentic.

Maybe cute,even…..

I was glad to see acknowledgement that school uniforms
would include males,primary grade kids,etc.

Would the images be as much fun if young boys and students
with single digit ages were depicted?

I've been a fan of tough,canny,intrepid,resourceful youths
ever since my younger days.

I'd love to see young people taking on the bad guys if it
doesn't trivialize the child soldier or turn into a thinly
concealed fetish product.

Our children are pretty terrific people.

It'd be nice if they could see themselves celebrated as
strong,heroic-even sensual.

Let's not water down the concept of babes well armed so
it is less reminiscent of Joan of Arc,Laura Hannant,Hilda
Pierce (or fictional characters such as Podkayne,Nancy Drew
Kim Possible or Hermione Granger)and more akin to Lolita.

Our kids can handle the idea of true-to-life youngsters
ready to handle whatever challenges come their way.

Can't we do the same?

The controversy about the anime inspired material seems
to be less concerned with sex,violence,body image,etc. and
more about whether we respect the characters our real world
students are supposed to emulate.

Even while we have fun with the premise,let's show as much
honor to these campus commandoes as we would cadets in a
military school or Jr. ROTC.

(BTW,if you want to be certain of your objectivity,imagine
a seventh grade boy from a Christian school in Atlanta in
lieu of a Sailor Moon clone from Yokohama.)

Personal logo Rogzombie Supporting Member of TMP Fezian18 Dec 2006 12:30 a.m. PST

I'm about as sick of this subject as I am of terrorist and pedophile hunts on tv.

Talk about polluting our forum. Dont bring that paranoid crap into here either.

People dont understand anime, some of you cant even spell or describe it correctly. In Japan its like magazines in the west. There are more styles and subjects than you can imagine. Not all of it, including some with school girls, is vulgar.

Also for the one little girl supposedly creeped out by old men there are plenty of girls that are glad that anyone shares in their hobby in this culturally backward society.

Typhoon Inactive Member18 Dec 2006 11:25 p.m. PST

Bravo, here, here DWW!

Well written!

I agree!

Don't like it, don't look at it!


As I said in the other thread, schoolgirls in uniform, whether they be high school or university, are a genre all their own here in Japan. The frequently appear in a variety of anime, manga, and movies. You can't avoid it. It is part of the hobby spectrum, like it or not.

If this bugs you then you should be speaking out about all the other scantily clad figures as well. You can't have it both ways.

I find Zombie stuff and games objectionable in some ways. I somewhat feel that it really isn't a gaming genre but it seems some of you like it so I get over my objections and let those that like it live in peace.

Personal logo Rogzombie Supporting Member of TMP Fezian19 Dec 2006 12:04 a.m. PST

There are at least 5 school girl miniatures now as I see it and this is a miniatures site. Unlike what people keep using as an excuse, this isnt a wargaming site its the miniature page!

There are people that find Neo Nazi crap distasteful right next to people who think teenage girls shoyuldnt exist. Even a few who dont hate gw.

Let people enjoy what they will, none of it is harming anyone, unless you allow a helpless 16 year old infant unsupervised to swallow the miniatures.

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