"How did the things begin? TFL issue" Topic

I got the email day ago from Gwan and then I read posts on TMP, facebook of both side.
I still cann't figure out what was happend. How did everything start?

Good question. Been trying to fathom that out myself.

From what I gather it involves a competitor of Bill's contacting vendors and members and telling them to leave TMP.
And it also involves things being said anti LGBT, which I completely don't understand, and an argument over a rule set? Hey, Bill can you please give us the condensed version of what has occured?

@Dadster:
Still don't understand. TFL is a rule making company. Bill's TMP is a forum. How cound they become competitors?

That is all I gather so far. There are many postings as of late on the site, dealing with all of it.

Bill said that TFL or someone from there has been contacting TMP members and advertisers and telling them they should leave TMP. That is the only thing I even sort of understand….

look for Martin Goddard's (Peter Pig) please stop please forum thread here…

@Wang

They aren't.

If you read back through the posts you're likely to get a marginally serviceable sense of how this brewed up. I think it is in part the latest in a string of set to's between TMP and various members/advertisers/non-advertiser vendors.

This one appears to have gotten a bit out of hand. I lately saw a post from one of the involved parties indicating that he had been in touch with, and made nice with, another.

It is POSSIBLE that this may be settling down. Goodness, that would be nice.

I doubt that 3 investigators, 3 historians and 3 psychics with a ton load of truth serum could ever really get to the bottom of it. As tho that'd be of any real use to anyone.

It is to be hoped that the principles can find a way out of this short of a full on schism, or the intercession of authorities.

Picking at this ain't going to improve it.

I doubt Bill will think it prudent to respond.

I read Peter Pig's post but I only saw the following parts, not the very beginning parts. I tried to rearrange it. It looks something like this to me:

1.TFL has some problem with TMP
2.TFL emails to the advertisers of TMP to ask them to quit
3.TFL emails to Peter Pig and seems that PP said no with action.

Now, I just want to know what was really happend in item #1

It is more like :

1 TFL has some problem with TMP
2 TFL put something on their website questioning the ethics of advertising on TMP
3 Other people, (at this time unknown and nameless, but presumably overenthusiastic fans of TFL) have been sending E-mails to PP (and others ?) questioning the ethics behind their advertising on TMP

I just wish it would all go away !!

I _think_ it all started when someone posted a review or a game report using one of TFL's new rulesets; Bill or one of the Editors deemed it unpaid advertising and removed it.

I believe (emphasis on the "believe" part) that a rules publisher, or fan or associate of the rule publisher was posting announcements of a new rules set. Bill deleted those posts since they violate forum rules. The poster took it personally and didn't stop. Bill didn't stop deleting posts. Mix in some pride and personal affronts and viola! ESCALATION!

Other people, (at this time unknown and nameless, but presumably overenthusiastic fans of TFL)

Dagwood, it was organized on the TFL FB feed. You can see the names of the people there, if you like. TFL has not taken the posts down.

I _think_ it all started when someone posted a review or a game report using one of TFL's new rulesets; Bill or one of the Editors deemed it unpaid advertising and removed it.

Incorrect. It started when certain TFL fans became disgruntled when we told them they couldn't post about a certain new product on the TMP forum because it violates our policy against commercial announcements. So certain individuals then chose to trash TMP with a flood of nuisance topics, posts, sock puppets, and offensive user names for a week.

Still don't understand. TFL is a rule making company. Bill's TMP is a forum. How cound they become competitors?

Let me see if I can entangle it for you.

TWW (a competitor of TMP) posted on the TFL forum, helping certain TFL fans find the TMP advertisers list so they could organize a boycott.

So TWW is colluding with TFL and their fans in organizing a boycott of TMP.

My take on it…

TFL asked for some clarification about the advertising policy.

Some people took this as an opportunity to make some jokes about Kenneth Williams which went over the heads of most non-UK people (Bill took this an orchestrated attack…I don't think it was)

Bill's replies were pretty blunt/rude.

It all went downhill from there.

TFL themselves have been very moderate and polite although some comments from people on FB haven't helped.

Bill posted a long list of alleged TFL 'demands' which were either exaggerated or completely false.

Bill seems to have taken this whole thing as a personal attack…I don't think it was although there are now messages going out to advertisers asking them to think about their position.

TFL asked for some clarification about the advertising policy.

Some people took this as an opportunity to make some jokes about Kenneth Williams which went over the heads of most non-UK people (Bill took this an orchestrated attack…I don't think it was)

Sorry, you got it backwards.

It started with a few people making posts about TFL's new product on our forum. We removed the topics, and politely explained that our forum rules do not allow commercial announcements.

This was followed by an avalanche of abusive and mocking posts by certain TFL fans, which we dealt with by locking several accounts. (Some of which were sock puppets.)

David Brown then complained, and TFL eventually posted in that topic, as you can see here: TMP link

OK, I think I know something now. This seems to be the similar story that happened a few months ago between the Chinese players and GHQ.
The two sides lost the possibility of talking peacefully because of some inappropriate language.
And then a lot of troll comes out and stirs things up. The conflict between the two sides continues to escalate.

Bill posted a long list of alleged TFL 'demands' which were either exaggerated or completely false.

Please don't tell whoppers.

Where did I ever claim the demands were made by TFL?

While summarized in a humorous manner, every single one of them stems from something from the TFL fans on social media.

TMP link

Bill seems to have taken this whole thing as a personal attack…I don't think it was

I think we can all agree that TFL has, at this point, "attacked" TMP in the sense that they are attempting to close TMP down by getting their fans to pressure our advertisers. This is being done on the TFL forum.

Secondarily, TFL has allowed a vile storm of personal attacks to be made against myself and my staff, including homophobic and anti-Mormon slurs which continue to be posted on their forum. When I have pleaded for those to be removed, I have been told I am attacking TFL!

Please, please, please read this: TMP link

The rules is the rules
You have your house/site rules Bill. If people don't like it that's tough, or if a lot of people don't like it you change the
rules. Plain, simple and nobody has to whine, gnash their teeth or cry foul.

Time to move on. This is not why I and I would imagine others subscribe to TMP. I joined to enjoy the hobby.

Time to move on.

Wish I could. This is an existential battle for TMP, and importantly, for the jobs of our staffers.

Amen

Incorrect. It started when certain TFL fans became disgruntled when we told them they couldn't post about a certain new product on the TMP forum because it violates our policy against commercial announcements. So certain individuals then chose to trash TMP with a flood of nuisance topics, posts, sock puppets, and offensive user names for a week.

That's what I observed too.

BUT you use the term individuals. Which is correct because that's exactly what they are. They were not TFL employees, and other than liking TFL rules, have zero affiliation with TFL. As far as I can tell, at that stage, TFL did absolutely nothing to encourage such boorish behaviour. In fact, they did quite the opposite, trying to seek clarification of your rules so that the postings would stop.

Just because the postings were all about a certain product does not in any way, shape or form mean that producer of that product condoned, encouraged or supported such rude behaviour. In fact, evidence shows quite the contrary.

At which, I honestly think you got a bit angry and frustrated Bill, which is understandable. We all have our moments.

But then you escalated it to causing potential financial harm on TFL, by forever (maybe? I don't think you ever did mention a time frame) banning all mentions – playtests, AAR, reviews – of those rules.

You got angry, and inadvertently dragged in an innocent (at that time) party called TFL. And then the ugly snowball picked up speed, and other innocent parties have been drawn in, and you've lost advertising money, and he's lost sales from your fans.

You can move on Bill. Both of you have hurt each other.
Call it a draw. Continuing this pointless exercise is not going to help you, or the wargaming hobby. Nobody is going to win.

Everyone makes mistakes, especially in the heat of the moment.

I didn't get angry, Tony.

I took a serious of slowly escalating steps to mitigate the problems caused by certain rowdy TFL fans. Eventually resulting in prohibiting mention of their new ruleset at all on our website.

Does this compare with what Too Fat Lardies is doing to TMP?

Did we try to shut down their company? No.

Have there been vile personal attacks on TFL staff on the TMP forums? No.

Has there been a problem with Hate Speech against TFL staff on the TMP forums? No.

Consider the difference.

What in tarnation is TWW?

Please don't tell whoppers.

Sorry but I didn't "tell whoppers"…you have clearly been taking this very personally and that's understandable but having seen the original posts here and on FB, your list of alleged 'demands' from TFL was a work of fiction and/or angry exaggeration.

They certainly didn't come across as a humorous summary… more like a very angry rant.

What in tarnation is TWW?

The Wargames Website… a very good forum

Sorry but I didn't "tell whoppers"…

You said I posted a list of demands from Too Fat Lardies. That is incorrect. Wrong. I never said it came from TFL, I very explicitly said it came from their fans.

…you have clearly been taking this very personally and that's understandable but having seen the original posts here and on FB, your list of alleged 'demands' from TFL was a work of fiction and/or angry exaggeration.

You perceive my bemusement as anger. Fine. I think some of the demands are laughable.

Of course it's hard for people to check all of the details because of your habit of deleting posts that challenge your narrative.

You want me to leave homophobic attacks on our Facebook feed? WE'RE NOT TFL.

Oh Bill, if that was the only time you delete posts that might be excusable, but you delete posts from people who you have taken an exception to or which don't fit your view of this mess or which contravene some of your very arbitrary "no politics" rulings.

Anyway, I'm done…feel free to accuse me of lying or misunderstanding things you have posted…I no longer care.

Sorry Bill if I misattributed your intentions. I certainly would have gotten hot under the collar, so perhaps I projected my assumptions onto you.

I guess what I was trying to say, was that nobody goes right to Defcon 4. Both parties take baby steps, each one upping the other. I don't think either side is blameless.

There are a lot good people here on TMP that come here for the miniatures needs and discussion (and if I must be blunt there are a lot that I really don't care for, but that's on me) and it would be a shame if they lost an aspect of the hobby that they enjoy. I also quite like TFL rules, and if they were to disappear I would be disappointed. (I also really like Peter Pig rules and figures, and it would also be wrong if they inadvertently took a hit from this mess).

I love wargaming as a hobby, and there is absolutely nothing about this whole affair that helps it. The vitriol being tossed around by both sides supporters is disgusting. I'm sorry, but there is never any reason to attack someone's sexuality or religion.

I applaud your efforts to stop people emailing TFL. That's a step in the right direction. Rich's similar efforts to stop harassing PP and others is also laudable.

Just de-escalate this. Refrain from posting any more, or nuke all these threads if you must. Pop TFL an email and see if he can't do the equivalent. You may or may not like him (I won't make any more assumptions of your feelings) but business is business and I'm confident both of you can bury this and move on.

Again…there is no way either side can possibly come out ahead.

Feel free to call me selfish – because I just want my favourite pastime to thrive and not be riven by pointless angry divisions.

…you delete posts from people who you have taken an exception to or which don't fit your view of this mess or which contravene some of your very arbitrary "no politics" rulings…

It's not TMP. It's our Facebook page. We choose what to allow to remain there.

I am amazed that people write something like "I never go to your garbage website, but I hear it's toxic" or "You are a vile and horrible person" and expect me to leave that on our FB feed???

Just de-escalate this.

I'm banned from their feed after asking them one more time to remove the homophobic remarks.

So no more comments there from me.

TFL is very arrogant. What's more it's completely unjustified. Very puzzling.

It's a pity neither you nor Mr Clarke were able to have a private exchange of emails to resolve this after you deleted three ""-related posts on the Ancients Board which you felt broke the ‘no commercial announcements on the forums' rule.

It's since escalated to a whole new level of vitriol, accusation and counter-claim. It's not helped that you've chosen to delete most of the comments on the TMP FB Page post relating to this issue rather than engage with your critics – I can't believe so many were so offensive they warranted it?

As you often say when (rightly) defending free speech on contentious issues raised in this place, it's better to openly counter people's wild claims about Covid, Holocaust etc rather than censor those comments and drive them underground – so why not apply the same common sense, libertarian approach over there as well?

whoppers"

Someone going to BK ! Get me one and "I'll gladly pay you on Tuesday."

Sorry Legion, over here all BK's are still closed (except a few drive-through takeaways) and with the current state of transatlantic post, I wouldn't want to risk you eating it once it arrived – better risk C-19!

so why not apply the same common sense, libertarian approach over there as well?

Because for the most part, they weren't from our community members.

I really don't give for what non-TMP people think of TMP. They're not part of the community. They don't get to vote. I don't need to talk to them.

Did you see some of those posts?

The lady who says I can't hire foreign workers because they must be exploited?

The lady who scolded Editor Dianna for working for $100 USD a month. (Where the heck did she get that idea?)

The lady who is opposed to all nude female minis, because it inevitably leads to violence against women?

The man who says it's immoral to combine hobby with business?

Messages from "sock puppet" Facebook accounts with nothing on them?

Any appropriate question you want to ask, you can ask here. I'll talk to TMP members. Not to the mob. Not to never-TMPers. Waste of time.

Unless you're willing to engage with ‘the mob', don't be on Facebook or similar social media (Twitter, Instagram etc) at all – it's a ‘lose lose' situation.

Some of the most exclusive consumer brands and private member's clubs don't see the need to do so, so why do you if it only opens you up to Ill-informed criticism?

Keep providing what the existing membership want, and you'll draw more like-minded people to you, mainly by personal recommendation and word of mouth – meaning you don't then have to have the expectations of others imposed on you.

The TFL fans are a toxic group of elderly men. It's been going on for years.

TFL ‘toxic elderly men'?

OK, I know that group photo on the TFL FB header doesn't do us any favours (I'm in it, I admit), I don't think its any different from any other Wargames group I've ever seen, and certainly no different from the TMP demographic if we're honest?

Or are Australian clubs full of virile, toned 30-something surfers? No, I didn't think so.

What a fanboy.

Play the ball, not the man, Blue.

But, yes, I admit to being a fan of Peter Pig as well as TFL.

As I've said elsewhere, it would have been far better had the owners of TFL and TMP resolved this issue privately if not amicably. I've backed up some of Bill's assertions against unfair criticism where appropriate.

Not quite sure what you've contributed beyond a single one-line unsubstantiated jibe at the TFL fans (who are hardly a single orchestrated gang, more a herd of cats)

Ah, the drama, the DRAMA, and, sadly, I'm out of popcorn……..

Wow, what an epiphany. There I was tuning in to TMP during an intermission from my Saturday night program of 1960's spy films (Some in color, some not) and then all of a sudden I find myself stuck in the middle of a cheese-blintze fight.

Please resolve the issue in a friendly manner so I can resume my regularly scheduled programming.

OK, so here's an example of the kind of posts I removed from the FB feed.

Ralph Plowman was kicked off TMP, came back, got banished twice. He claims it was all unfairly, and frankly, I barely remember the guy, and I certainly don't remember the circumstances. But getting kicked off twice indicates it wasn't a fluke!

So on FB, he goes round and round and round with me on this, boring me to tears, and I finally say OK, I'll let you back, and he doesn't want it.

And now he's upset that his super-marathon-complaint session got nuked from our FB feed. So he posted again. Which I've nuked, too, but here's a screenshot.

I guess he thinks I'm a big mean bully because I won't leave this on the TMP FB feed.

I have learnt some things over last few days.

First Advertising on TMP works. If it did not why are they do upset about the whole issue.

Second Some people have strange sense of morals. They believe that this site is run by a monster, but that did not matter till they were not allowed to advertise.

There keep being questions asked about how to attract more women into the hobby. A good start might be not having rules with silly slightly smutty names

Gunnerphil,

I think your last question might best be somehow answered by the small number of women who used to participate here and have chosen not to do so in recent years – I don't think they'd cite slightly smutty rule names as a major problem deterring women from the hobby.

Of course, there may well be many female posters still here of whom I'm not aware, given the very varied user names being employed, but somehow I doubt it!

Basha Felika

I agree might not cite it. But the school boy giggling at smutty words attitude, and the attitude that it creates is a different matter

"The lady who scolded Editor Dianna for working for $100.00 USD USD a month. (Where the heck did she get that idea?)"

She accused, that Editor Dianna is overpaid? 100 dollars are too much?

My average tin soldier sales are 200-250 dollars per month, from which 5 goes to TMP, 15 to PayPal, 50 to postages and 160 to production materials and facilities, electricity and internet. The rest goes to food.

What is interesting is that most of the posters keeping this going are not Supporting Members and almost all are from one country.

Just an observation. Make of it what you will.

Sorry Legion, over here all BK's are still closed (except a few drive-through takeaways) and with the current state of transatlantic post, I wouldn't want to risk you eating it once it arrived – better risk C-19!

Wow ! That is too bad. Of course some eateries, etc., here have been burned down ! But in reality over here many places still only do take out.

kicked off TMP, came back, got banished twice. He claims it was all unfairly, and frankly, I barely remember the guy, and I certainly don't remember the circumstances. But getting kicked off twice indicates it wasn't a fluke!

Seems these "adults" who got thrown off TMP as still really upset. Well Bill you must have a great thing doing on here ! That they are still upset and attack you and other members on this site. You may have to stop Happy Hours and the Free Buffet.

The being said I have been DH'd many times and and locked out twice and still not allowed to post on the UM board. But was fortunate I was allowed back. I guess many of my posts, etc., may have deemed that I am worthy of being around ? Just avoid certain topics, comments, etc.

Regardless, Bill did a "house cleaning" a couple of years ago. And many of the SJWs, Trolls, etc., were purged. Now
I will admit some who Bill kicked off I liked and sorry to see them go.

But many, since they are gone, things have been much better/peaceful around these parts. Almost no personal attacks, vitriol, derisiveness, etc. that you see on those FB posts.

Again Bill and I have had our differences. But I do understand this is his show.

Mature, socially developed, adults discuss and talk about different opinions, beliefs, etc. And should agree to disagree and move on. In some case some had only moved on after they were thrown off TMP.

And like in the movie "Mean Girls", these SJW, etc., talk trash, plot revenge, etc., etc. But not at a lunch table in school. But other sites whose names need not be mentioned.

I think your last question might best be somehow answered by the small number of women who used to participate here and have chosen not to do so in recent years – I don't think they'd cite slightly smutty rule names as a major problem deterring women from the hobby.

I'm somewhat offended by the continuing negativity of your comments. I'm unaware of any 'exodus of women' from TMP. Still seem to be as many here as ever.