David Brown | 22 Jun 2020 3:00 p.m. PST |
Could somebody please explain why all the posts with any reference to are being removed? I was under the impression that TMP was a wargaming site where one could discus wargaming rules and other related topics? |
Editor in Chief Bill | 22 Jun 2020 3:38 p.m. PST |
Commercial posts are not allowed on the forum, and haven't been for some time. Companies that wish to promote their new offerings are welcome to become TMP advertisers and submit Hobby News stories. |
coopman | 22 Jun 2020 5:26 p.m. PST |
Can't discuss anything new. |
Leadjunky | 22 Jun 2020 7:25 p.m. PST |
Can your post a rules review and game report or new rules or of non-advertiser's rules, figures, etc.? |
Slow Oats | 22 Jun 2020 7:50 p.m. PST |
Are any and all posts about said snipped item being removed, or just ones by the publisher? |
Parzival | 22 Jun 2020 8:06 p.m. PST |
I believe the restriction is on the publisher (including sock puppets). Otherwise, you can talk about anything new you like. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 22 Jun 2020 8:38 p.m. PST |
I believe the restriction is on the publisher (including sock puppets).Otherwise, you can talk about anything new you like. No, that's not practical, because the company will just get their fans to post for them. So all posts announcing new products are not allowed on the forum. Can your post a rules review and game report? Yes, if they are really reviews or game reports. But if someone is trying to skirt the rules by writing a 'review' which is really a product announcement, that won't fly. |
JJartist | 22 Jun 2020 9:27 p.m. PST |
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Twilight Samurai | 22 Jun 2020 9:31 p.m. PST |
NO, I am not a sock puppet! |
toofatlardies | 22 Jun 2020 10:25 p.m. PST |
Being serious for a moment, this does appear to be a point of friction which I think would be best avoided. I am more than happy to post very specific instructions on our forum, Facebook page and Lard Island News so that people understand exactly what the rules are and don't contravene them. I note that some posts regarding Chain of Command have not been deleted, so I am presuming this is not a censorship of any reference to our range of rule sets. That leads me to presume, but I am not sure, that the censorship only relates to the imminent release ! Is that correct? Also, is the censorship specifically related to people announcing that the rules are due to be published? Would it be possible for them to say, in passing, "I am looking for some nice 28mm Roman figures for Infamy, Infamy!"? That could be seen by many to be more innocuous and not actually an attempt to promote the rules. Thirdly, can people post game reports here? We do have a number of gamers who are already posting such reports on the web. At present these have been people from the playtest group but that situation will presumably change after next Monday when the rule are released. I am keen to get clarification on whether there is a difference between them posting a game report now, prior to the release of the rules, or after Monday, post the release. Could one be seen as promoting the rules, whereas the other would just be an innocuous game report. Or maybe BOTH would/could be seen as breaking the rules. Could you also please clarify if the censorship rules apply to ALL companies, or whether this relates specifically to TooFatLardies as a result of our choosing to no longer advertise with you? I note, for example, that Games Worshop do not advertise here and yet their new releases are discussed openly. I am interested to understand what the difference is between the different status and rules that apparently apply to different non-advertisers. If you, Bill, could kindly clarify the above, and please do feel free to add in any further rules on when censorship will or will not be applied, I do understand that this must be a very complex issue and I will happily post these rules so that our customers do not fall foul of the regulations. I'd hate to see anyone in the 'dawghouse' as a result of not understanding the rules. Regards Richard |
David Brown | 23 Jun 2020 1:39 a.m. PST |
Bill, Further to Richard's comments it would also be useful to know for how long a new product is considered as "new" and for how long the restrictions apply until ended. E.g. 1 month, 2 months, etc. DB |
Darrell B D Day | 23 Jun 2020 2:40 a.m. PST |
The Law of Unintended Consequences decrees that this not going to be a simple rule to apply uniformly, fairly and consistently. DBDD |
rustymusket | 23 Jun 2020 4:21 a.m. PST |
Another case of common sense is not so common any more. If advertising disappears, this site disappears. A friend of mine owned a hobby shop. People "window shopped" his store for the figs they wanted and then purchased on line for less. He went under. Think about it. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 23 Jun 2020 7:20 a.m. PST |
That leads me to presume, but I am not sure, that the censorship only relates to the imminent release ! Is that correct? That's what our policy says. Read the FAQ. Also, is the censorship specifically related to people announcing that the rules are due to be published? Would it be possible for them to say, in passing, "I am looking for some nice 28mm Roman figures for !"? That could be seen by many to be more innocuous and not actually an attempt to promote the rules. No, because that's precisely what your fans are doing right now. I am sick of deleting stupid topics in the last few days that are just attempts to get free publicity for a certain ruleset. Please control your fans. Thirdly, can people post game reports here? Stupidest question of the day. Have you ever looked on our forum? Of course, game reports are posted constantly. Could you also please clarify if the censorship rules apply to ALL companies, or whether this relates specifically to TooFatLardies as a result of our choosing to no longer advertise with you? Stupid question #2. We've been quite clear that it applies to all companies, advertiser or non-advertiser. Now tell the more idiot members of your fanbase to please stop posting stupid topics just to promote your new ruleset, whatever it is. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 23 Jun 2020 8:08 a.m. PST |
Another case of common sense is not so common any more. If advertising disappears, this site disappears. A friend of mine owned a hobby shop. People "window shopped" his store for the figs they wanted and then purchased on line for less. He went under. Think about it. What makes me sick is that these companies that want free advertising are literally taking food off the table of our staffers in the Third World. |
toofatlardies | 23 Jun 2020 8:42 a.m. PST |
Bill, I am surprised by some of the terms you are using when my questions were simply an attempt to clarify the situation so I could ask people to be sure to comply with the rules. As for idiots? Well, I think my customers are also your readers. I am not able to tell my customers what to do, nor can I control them, but I can explain to them where you have issues and ask them to be cognisant of that. The problem I am having, Bill, is understanding where the lines are drawn because they are not applied evenly. I fully understand that I cannot promote our products here. However, this is a web site called "The Miniatures Page' which does rather lead people to think that it is a place where they can come to discuss wargaming with miniatures. A simple glance at the site sees lots of people posting about Chain of Command and other rule sets that we publish. To expect that they should be aware that they could be banned from the site for posting comments about a new release that they are looking forward to seems to be expecting a lot. Especially when it is one of the biggest releases in historical wargaming this year. Hence my urgent request for clarification so I could make an announcement on our web site explaining what counts as promoting a product. You say that asking about posting a game report is a stupid question. Game reports are posted all the time. My concern is that someone posting a game report in this instance could be accused of product promotion and banned. It is still not clear whether that is the case. The second apparently stupid question regarding whether this applies to all companies equally should indeed be simple to answer from reading your FAQ. But it seems to be applied without consistency. As someone noted on this thread before they had their account locked and their post removed, you yourself have posted in a thread about a forthcoming GW product. They don't advertise here. They never have. I did at least pay you for advertising here for more than ten years. I hope you can see why the lines are not clear to comprehend and why I requested clarification. I think I have an understanding now. Could you please clarify the following: 1. People CAN currently post game reports of Infamy, Infamy! but they cannot mention the name as this would count as promoting a product. 2. People will be able to post game reports mentioning the name of the rules from next Monday onwards as the rules will then be published. Once this is confirmed then I will make an official announcement on our web site and social media to ask our customers to only post according to these rules. Thank you for your time. I can only apologise if this is causing you stress. I am doing all I can to ensure that this can be dealt with and no more people will need their accounts locked nor posts deleted. It does trouble me that in the end there will be nobody left here! |
Editor in Chief Bill | 23 Jun 2020 9:08 a.m. PST |
As for idiots? Well, I think my customers are also your readers. I realize that you may think that starting a flame war on TMP might be good free advertising for your product. Please do not misconstrue my remarks. What I said previously was: "…the more idiot members of your fanbase…" I certainly did not call all of your fans, idiots. Just the ones who are acting like it. Hence my urgent request for clarification so I could make an announcement on our web site explaining what counts as promoting a product. Very simple. Please ask your fans not to post about your new ruleset on TMP. Explain that a few people are breaking the forum rules, so it is best in this case, at this time, to call a full halt. My concern is that someone posting a game report in this instance could be accused of product promotion and banned. It is still not clear whether that is the case. We have never prohibited game reports, but in this case, let's do that too. No game reports about your new ruleset, please. But it seems to be applied without consistency. As someone noted on this thread before they had their account locked and their post removed, you yourself have posted in a thread about a forthcoming GW product. I have no idea what topic you are talking about. If you have a problem with it, hit the Complaint Button. So, given the number of forum problems this is causing, I'm prohibiting all mention of your new ruleset on our forum. That's game reports, reviews, announcements, stupid 'Kenneth' topics, etc. P.S. … before they had their account locked… You mean, the guy who said he would never become a Supporting Member of TMP? Won't miss him. Rude git. |
toofatlardies | 23 Jun 2020 11:08 a.m. PST |
Bill, you have accused me of starting a flame war and of theft, literally in your words, from people in the Third World. I must tell you that I became involved here in order to try to stop a flame war that had already begun without my assistance. I simply requested clarification which I now have. The fact that you have arbitrarily changed your own rules in this case does rather prove my point about the confusion stemming from the lack of consistency. Be that as it may, I have put the following statement on our Twitter feed and on the Facebook Group in the hope of avoiding any further posts which may be in breach of your rules: "I am very sorry to have to ask people who are getting ready to play to please NOT post anything about the game on TMP. The editor has deleted several posts where people had asked for advice on figures and one had posted a link to a review on Beasts of War. I posted on TMP to ask Bill for clarification as I was not happy about people risking being banned for a seemingly innocuous post. Bill has now asked that NO posts about be made on TMP. No battle reports. No reviews. This is, I believe, a true shame. But in view of the blanket ban, I wanted to let people now so that they do not fall foul of rules which seem to be difficult to fathom out and applied somewhat arbitrarily." I hope that meets with your approval and, more importantly, I do hope that no more of your members will have their accounts locked for simply being enthusiastic about a new product that is coming onto the market. As many people think this site is specifically for such chit chat and general sharing of information on the hobby, you may find it helpful to give people some clearer guidelines about which companies they can discuss and which they can't. That would, I hope, save any future unpleasantness. As to my 'literally' stealing food from people in the Third World. That sounds as improbable as it is libelous. Richard |
Editor in Chief Bill | 23 Jun 2020 11:23 a.m. PST |
As to my 'literally' stealing food from people in the Third World. That sounds as improbable as it is libelous. Are you deliberately misreading what I've written? In response to someone else's comment, I remarked: What makes me sick is that these companies that want free advertising are literally taking food off the table of our staffers in the Third World. Unless you are a company seeking free advertising, this does not apply to you. The fact that you have arbitrarily changed your own rules in this case does rather prove my point about the confusion stemming from the lack of consistency. No, it shows the continued bad behavior of some of your fans, who have forced us into this position because they keep posting contrary to our forum rules. The new policy has been in place for many months, and your fans are the only ones that have had a problem with it. I was not happy about people risking being banned for a seemingly innocuous post. The people with Locked accounts are the ones trying to provoke a flame war. If they want their accounts restored, they can talk with Editor Gwen as usual. If all they want to do is whine, they can do that somewhere else. |
(Leftee) | 23 Jun 2020 4:35 p.m. PST |
Bill, just curious-as a non-supporting member, [sometimes did though in past] do you get any benefit from me coming to your website? Let's say I click on a few News items, does that generate any income for you? Or only indirectly if I choose to buy from that advertiser? How about if I just go to the message boards? Or am I a burden if I just 'window shop'? The reason I ask is that, let's say I go to the "PanzerCrush" Facebook page, the moderator(s) state no discussion about any other rule sets besides "PanzerCrush". Fair enough. Here, though, with a name like 'The Miniatures Page' I don't have the mental energy to determine what's verboten, as so much is. but only for a certain time, oblique references are sort of allowed in the context of battle reports but others are not, and who are your current advertisers. Some were and are no longer, some were not and now are. It gets confusing. I don't think people are idiots for being excited or curious about new things or have questions about them. It seems a little 'get off my lawn-ish" to constantly throw cold water on them and certainly unpleasant to call everyone that likes something who doesn't pay you as idiots and possible thieves. To simplify things could you list the name of products, manufacturers, publishers that you will accept comments about and list those you will not, I don't feel like I should have to figure that out for myself as there are too many codicils within each category. For example, what if someone published a new update to rules that have been around for years but do not pay you any advertising dollars. eg Armati 2 published their ECW/Renaissance lists (and dogs lay down with squirrels). It appears I would need to do a battle report using this new amendment for this to pass muster, correct? -whether the new lists cost anything or not, or…as they are at a certain statute of limitations I don't need to worry? So benefit to non-members, to the detriment of your advertisers, would be to seek information on specific boards with specific interests rather than come here for a comprehensive look; or do I have that wrong? I am not trying to stir anything, just looking to see if A. You benefit from non-members being here and B. If I am here, under the current rules, what benefit it is to me to have to investigate whether you benefit or not before I post or respond to something? |
Editor in Chief Bill | 23 Jun 2020 4:51 p.m. PST |
Let's say I click on a few News items, does that generate any income for you? Not directly. Indirectly, in the sense that it makes our advertisers happy. How about if I just go to the message boards? Or am I a burden if I just 'window shop'? Same as above. To simplify things could you list the name of products, manufacturers, publishers that you will accept comments about and list those you will not, I don't feel like I should have to figure that out for myself as there are too many codicils within each category. We have said that new product announcements do not belong in the forum. That's pretty simple. If you want all the forum rules, see TMP link So benefit to non-members, to the detriment of your advertisers, would be to seek information on specific boards with specific interests rather than come here for a comprehensive look; or do I have that wrong? You are making it way too complicated. All we're asking is that you not "give away the store" or give "free advertising" about new products from companies that aren't supporting TMP. You can still do reviews, game reports, etc., with the special exception of TFL's newest product because so many people have been jerks about it. |
David Manley | 23 Jun 2020 7:18 p.m. PST |
Bill, there is still an important question in Brucka's post that lies unanswered. If it's OK to talk about products from advertisers then how do we tell who your advertisers are? Is there a list somewhere that tells us? |
Editor in Chief Bill | 23 Jun 2020 7:25 p.m. PST |
David, I don't understand your question. The forum policy applies to all companies, advertisers and non-advertisers. |
David Manley | 23 Jun 2020 8:28 p.m. PST |
It was this last bit in your post where you said "All we're asking is that you not "give away the store" or give "free advertising" about new products from companies that aren't supporting TMP", which suggested it was ok if a company does support TMP. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 23 Jun 2020 9:28 p.m. PST |
…which suggested it was ok if a company does support TMP. No, because that confuses companies, and we would get complaints – "why does such-and-such company get to make announcements on the forum, and we don't" – so it is much easier to keep new product announcements in Hobby News. All advertisers have access to Hobby News. Especially considering that Hobby News stories circulate throughout TMP, in the sidebar, for 30 days now. So a Hobby News story is much more valuable now than a forum announcement that just scrolls down off the homepage. |
David Manley | 23 Jun 2020 9:34 p.m. PST |
Got it, don't talk about new releases at all and leave it to Hobby News. That's clearer. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 23 Jun 2020 9:40 p.m. PST |
The only reason I got off into the weeds, David, is that 'certain people' have been trying to bend (and break) the rules to promote a certain new product. Over and over again. For a week. And they know better. |
(Leftee) | 23 Jun 2020 10:31 p.m. PST |
So that at least answers my questions. Thank you. I do think it limits discussion and tampers excitement about new things from non-advertisers that can actually help advertisers here – no-one has a monopoly on my hobby money. But, whether I agree with you or not, doesn't matter as this is, rightly of course, your site. I do miss the old, less business oriented, way of doing things but I am not paying the bills. I will say I do frequent here less though because of it, no longer a supporting member, and because of it miss much of the advertising going on- I am sure I am not alone. I am unsure of the animus towards Rich who has been a leader in the hobby and all around good guy? Do not know anything about fan-boys and disruption of your site, but I doubt TFL had anything to do with it, or encouraged it. I think Rich was trying, in fairness, to point that out and come to a resolution. Anyway, appreciate the clarification and the follow on answers you gave David. |
genew49 | 24 Jun 2020 2:35 a.m. PST |
I don't know whether I'm an idiot or a jerk. I do know my membership is due for renewal in the next few weeks and I will have a decision to make. I understand your stance on unpaid advertisers, it makes perfect sense. However, I do not understand why you resort to name calling and appear to inflame situations. It is a losing strategy for you. At this point I would think that you could handle situations without resorting to name calling. Just something to keep in mind. And my two cents worth. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 24 Jun 2020 5:45 a.m. PST |
I am unsure of the animus towards Rich who has been a leader in the hobby and all around good guy? What animus? It's his fans that are causing trouble, but I have no evidence that he's directly responsible. I don't know whether I'm an idiot or a jerk. I do know my membership is due for renewal in the next few weeks and I will have a decision to make. I understand your stance on unpaid advertisers, it makes perfect sense. However, I do not understand why you resort to name calling and appear to inflame situations. It is a losing strategy for you. At this point I would think that you could handle situations without resorting to name calling. Just something to keep in mind. And my two cents worth. Why are you making excuses for people who deliberately break forum rules? If people are acting like idiots, then they're idiots. I'm talking specifically about the people who have been posting stupid 'Kenneth' topics and other provocations on TMP. |
genew49 | 24 Jun 2020 8:41 a.m. PST |
I'm not making excuses for anyone. I was referring to myself. I guess I was trying to make the point that there are better ways of handling situations. I believe you can be firm in your response without recriminations. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 24 Jun 2020 12:42 p.m. PST |
I'm not making excuses for anyone. I was referring to myself. I don't get it. If you're not one of those deliberately causing trouble by breaking forum rules, why would you even think that? |
FCornwallis | 24 Jun 2020 1:50 p.m. PST |
What I think genew49 is saying is that regardless of the rights and wrongs of the situation, the way you express yourself is really below par. As someone with zero stakes in this, to me the language you use is very confrontational and rude, and not befitting of someone in a position of authority. I'd expect the owner/Editor of a website to be much more civil in how he deals with his users, and it leaves a pretty bad taste no matter the specifics of the issue. |
genew49 | 24 Jun 2020 4:44 p.m. PST |
Thank you for explaining FCornwallis. And Bill, on June 19, I did mention the rule set in a thread regarding Victrix cavalry. My intention was to put my question in context not advertise. When another poster asked about the game I answered with a couple of line description. I did not include a link. If it was a breach of the rules I apologize it was not my intent. I think if you look back at the 15 years I've been a member you will see that I am not a trouble maker nor do I deliberately attempt to defy the forum rules. I believe I might have been doghoused for a political response once and I might have been on the edge with some straight forward responses to anti-union and subtle antisemitic posts. The bottom line is I think you can do better and I don't like to called an idiot or a jerk for asking a question. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 24 Jun 2020 5:20 p.m. PST |
I don't like to called an idiot or a jerk for asking a question. Again, why are you insisting on being a victim? Nobody called you a jerk or an idiot. You did not post any of the problem topics. You were not acting like an idiot. And no, I am not going to make excuses for those few people who disrespected forum rules and behaved badly. I think it is important to say when someone is acting like an idiot. Let's be honest about it. But there is a big gap between these people, who deliberately tried to start a flame war, and someone who innocently mentioned a new ruleset. Editor Gwen tells me she has already spoken to one person who apologized, said their bad behavior was unintentional, and their account has been restored. |
genew49 | 24 Jun 2020 9:25 p.m. PST |
So now, instead of reflecting on your lack of decorum as an editor, you continue to disparage your members. Me? Playing the victim? Are you kidding me? I've reread my posts and nowhere have I either inferred to be or claimed to be a victim. Victim is your word, not mine. I guess you just don't get. Unfortunately you missed my original point. Have a good night. I'm done. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 24 Jun 2020 11:04 p.m. PST |
There you go again. …your lack of decorum as an editor… Did we stumble into the 19th Century? I'm 'woke', I'll call 'em as I see 'em. …you continue to disparage your members… People behaving as idiots and jerks will be described accordingly. All of our other members are just fine. Me? Playing the victim? Can I remind you that you said: 'I don't like to called an idiot or a jerk for asking a question.' When did that ever happen? I say something about someone else, and you insist it applies to you. |
David Brown | 25 Jun 2020 1:09 a.m. PST |
Bill, Re: People behaving as idiots and jerks will be described accordingly. Are you sure that is wise? You might be right and they might well be idiots and jerks but is there any need for you to label them as such, as you are, after all the Editor in Chief? I dealt with many people who easily fell into the category of idiots and jerks, (and far worse) yet I did not refer to them as such, as it would have undermined and devalued the position I held. DB |
genew49 | 25 Jun 2020 5:34 a.m. PST |
Calling them as you see them is not a problem. Calling them as you see them by demeaning and insulting language is inappropriate for an editor/owner. For the record I never believed I am a victim in all of this. I do believe that in the 21st century I can support respect for fellow members. I never said you should not call out poor behavior or penalize rule breakers. But merely to do it in a professional manner. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 25 Jun 2020 6:09 a.m. PST |
If you are asking me to be more sensitive regarding people who deliberately abuse the forum, guess again. |
genew49 | 25 Jun 2020 8:01 a.m. PST |
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Wolfhag | 25 Jun 2020 8:51 a.m. PST |
Feel free to call me any name you like, but please try to be creative and feel free to make an idiot out of yourself. Fortunately, I'm immune to words from strangers that I'll never know or be in contact with. If words from strangers or people you do not respect have a negative psychological impact on you, raise your blood pressure, make you angry, or cause you to kick your cat you may be suffering from snowflakeitis. If so, please seek help. Example: YouTube link Wolfhag |
genew49 | 25 Jun 2020 8:59 a.m. PST |
I have no intention of calling you names or purposely being disrespectful to anyone. Wasn't brought up that way. I don't have a cat or high blood pressure and no more of a snowflake than those who refuse to wear face masks. |
David Brown | 25 Jun 2020 9:33 a.m. PST |
Wolfhag, I believe you may have missed the point. The matter is not about being free to insult you or its impact upon you. It's about whether one should use such language or more specifically if the Editor in chief should use such language. It is generally accepted in polite society that people do not insult one another and that editors in chief set the standards of behaviour. Exactly the same as a Captain setting the standards of behaviour for the Company or a Colonel for the Battalion. If an individual soldier's behaviour falls below that expected, officers challenge it and raise the bar, they do not stoop to the same low level. DB |
MajorB | 25 Jun 2020 10:26 a.m. PST |
People behaving as idiots and jerks will be described accordingly. Somebody just posted something stupid. Can I call them an idiot? No name calling. You can disagree with their argument but you can't "attack" another TMP member on the forum personally. [NAME CALLING RULE, PERSONAL ATTACK RULE] |
Editor in Chief Bill | 25 Jun 2020 11:30 a.m. PST |
They're not TMP members any more. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 25 Jun 2020 11:54 p.m. PST |
We've had some more TFL fanboys posting abusive topics on the forum today, so I've taken a few more steps. The name of their new product is now auto-snipped. (Forces them to at least misspell it.) A new topic with the name of their new product in it will be automatically rejected. (Ditto above.) And, since he's campaigning on social media to close down TMP, I have Locked TFL Rich's account on TMP. Go ahead, tell me I'm a meanie, tell me I'm a bully, I've heard it all before. |
Last Hussar | 27 Jun 2020 2:35 a.m. PST |
Because no other sets of rules are ever mentioned on TMP, giving them free advertising? |
Editor in Chief Bill | 28 Jun 2020 9:04 a.m. PST |
You're right, all of those publishers should pay for their advertising. |
AdiosTMP | 28 Jun 2020 9:56 a.m. PST |
Finally had enough of the arbitrary application of "rules" around here. Bye TMP! |