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"What the Mob Wants" Topic


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©1994-2020 Bill Armintrout
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Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian26 Jun 2020 12:57 p.m. PST

As you have probably heard by now, there is a campaign orchestrated on social media by Too Fat Lardies to 'cancel' TMP by driving off all of our members and advertisers.

I have carefully read most of the comments posted regarding this on social media, and have made a list of what the mob is demanding in order for TMP to continue to exist:

1. There can be no forum rules.
2. Forum rules cannot be enforced, because that is bullying.
3. Discussion will be confined to subjects which make the hobby community "look good" to the public.
4. Current military affairs cannot be discussed.
5. History cannot be discussed if it in any way has any impact on current events.
6. Employees from the Third World must be fired, as obviously they are not being paid enough and are therefore being exploited.
7. Gay employees must be fired, as obviously they are being groomed or otherwise exploited.
8. I must change my religion, and no longer make contributions to any church.
9. There must be a dramatic change in the amount of 'American' activity on the forums. It is important that we represent the entire world.
10. Everything must be free. A hobby cannot be a business.
11. Companies must have veto rights over any review or topic concerning them.
12. Miniatures that display any level of nudity must not be displayed, as this promotes misogyny and violence against women.
13. People who make nuisance posts, use sock puppet accounts, or otherwise harass TMP must be treated with respect, because they are human beings too, not idiots or lacking in intelligence.
14. Everyone who has ever been banned from TMP must be allowed to return, no matter why they were kicked out.
15. TMP is old, outmoded, and of no use to anyone anyway. Nobody comes here.

That's all the points I can remember right now. And yes, I'm not joking, all of these have actually been posted on social media. No, I can't give you links to all of them, consider it a student exercise. Some were deleted from the TMP FB page, usually because they included gratuitous attacks on myself, staffers, or the business itself.

This is a mob, so there is no one to negotiate with. They will continue to pressure companies and people until their demands are complied with.

If we give in to their demands, I'm sure a committee will be drawn up to see that everything is done to their satisfaction.

MajorB26 Jun 2020 1:02 p.m. PST

10. Everything must be free. A hobby cannot be a business

So TFL are going to give away their rules for free now? Where do I get 'em?

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian26 Jun 2020 1:08 p.m. PST

All rulesets should be free and distributed as PDFs. It is immoral to make any profit off the hobby community.

All game designers will be required to use pseudonyms in the future, so that there is no bias toward "favorites".

Patrick Sexton Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2020 1:15 p.m. PST

Well, if this is the case then those folks need to A- get actual lives and B- get stuffed.

Thanks,

Pat

sma194126 Jun 2020 1:20 p.m. PST

Sounds like socialist whining to me.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian26 Jun 2020 1:37 p.m. PST

I forgot a few!

16. NO RACISM! What, you thought there wasn't any racism here? What you don't understand is that you don't judge people based on what they've said, you judge them on the intent of their hearts. Well, what you think their intent might be.

17. NO MORE TOXIC ENVIRONMENT. We're not sure what this means. In every poll, our members say they like it here. But people who are no longer TMP members feel strongly that our environment is harmful and dangerous!

18. One person said that I'm too white. I'm actually mostly Mexican and Native American, do you think that would be OK?

19. The same person said that I'm old. Apparently, that's disqualifying.

20. All employees who are not native speakers of English must exhibit exemplary English language skills. If not, you can mock them, suggest they're not real employees, and question their work ethic.

21. Anyone working at TMP should be monitoring the forums at all times, because what else would we be doing? Obviously, running a website takes no real effort.

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2020 1:40 p.m. PST

Hmmmm, don't all the other "rules" violate Rule 1 and 2, or am I missing something there?

Let me know when ALL the TFL rules and supplements become available to the masses for free, not that I'll still want them after this kerfluffel, but still………

SBminisguy26 Jun 2020 1:54 p.m. PST

I would suggest you disengage and just have a simple explanation you've put certain rules of use in place afte long experience to:

1. Restrict topics that result in destructive flame wars that impact the whole of the TMP user base. Take it to the Blue Fez.

2. This is an advertiser supported site, and as such you require that official product announcements be made only by paid supporters/advertisers. If people get too sneaky and try to sock puppet their product announcement you will remove the thread.

Then I would further suggest that your engagement be simplified as well. Don't get into flame wars on facebook, no "he said, he said" stuff. Just post a simple "mission statement" of "TMP believes XYZ. We have a broad user base that likes to discuss a range of topics outside of just war gaming. Based on years of experience we have developed user guidelines and use paid moderators/editors to mitigate topics that lead to destructive flame wars, remove distasteful content and enhance the user experience. We believe that TMP should be a "safe" place for its users, and invite you to visit us at theminiaturespage.com

Then we walk the talk. Any topics that go too political, send it to the Fez and if people want to pursue it in that free fire zone, good for them.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian26 Jun 2020 2:07 p.m. PST

And I forgot, this is very important, it comes from TFL Rich himself:

22. MORE WELCOMING! It seems that some of you lot have not been sufficiently welcoming to new members. We probably need a new system, such as new members handing out 'welcoming points' to members who they judge to be welcoming. If you don't meet your welcoming points quote, training courses will be available.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian26 Jun 2020 2:10 p.m. PST

I would suggest you disengage and just have a simple explanation you've put certain rules of use in place…

We've had rules forever, and they're just not 'woke', you know? We have to get with the times. Rules are so… dictatorial.

Nothing else will suit the mob.

Someone else tells me (rudely) that I'm lying. I'm not! Every single one of these is based on something from social media in the recent discussions. A mob has no head, so you have to listen to what everyone is saying.

Oberlindes Sol LIC Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2020 2:11 p.m. PST

This website is actually the closest thing I have to social media, so I missed directly seeing all of this.

I do see that I'm not missing anything by not having social media, but then, I'm a consumer, not a merchant.

Legion 426 Jun 2020 2:22 p.m. PST

Pretty Much all of those "changes" seems to be "Bad" ideas IMO … E.g. 13 & 14 especially …

MajorB26 Jun 2020 2:25 p.m. PST

In line with GDPR legislation I request that you remove all my details from this site within 30;days, and send me confirmation when you have done so.

If Nick Meredith is your real name. then just change it here. That will disassociate your email address from your name and thus it will no longer be personal data. If it isn't your real name, you have no sanction under GDPR.

Just Jack Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2020 2:29 p.m. PST

I am on your side, but this is not helping.

V/R,
Jack

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian26 Jun 2020 2:50 p.m. PST

Not helping? It's good to know what the mob wants. You can learn a lot from the mob.

TFL FB feed

I see that someone on the TFL feed has comments about my religion and the sexual orientation of staff members. I've asked TFL to do something about the toxic environment of their Facebook feed. They didn't do anything last time, either.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian26 Jun 2020 2:59 p.m. PST

Here's a sample from the TMP FB feed:

TMP FB Feed

You get the 'dig' at our staffers? That's bigotry, plain to see, but few in the mob bother to notice. They're fine with it.

How DARE we ask people to PAY for services.

Oh, and you're all blinkered.

Doug MSC Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2020 3:22 p.m. PST

ANYWAY
People are unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered.
Love them anyway.
If you do good, people will accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives.
Do good anyway.
If you are successful, you will win false friends and true enemies.
Succeed anyway.
The good you do today will be forgotten tomorrow.
Do good anyway.
Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable.
Be honest and frank anyway.
The biggest people with the biggest ideas can be shot down by the smallest people with the smallest ideas.
Think big anyway.
What you spend years building may be destroyed overnight.
Build anyway.
People really need help but may attack you if you help them.
Help them anyway.
Give the world the best you have, and you'll get kicked in the teeth.
Give them the best you've got anyway.

D6 Junkie26 Jun 2020 3:32 p.m. PST

I agree with SBminisguy 100%.
Really Bill take a deep breath and
step back. You have pretty much crossed into
rant stage now.
I understand that you are upset, but
this is not being constructive at all.
Once more I suggest following SBminisguy suggestion.

Stryderg26 Jun 2020 3:36 p.m. PST

Well said, Doug MSC.

DisasterWargamer Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2020 3:44 p.m. PST

I concur with SBminis and D^ Junkie as well as quite a few others

I enjoy coming and getting exposed to a lot of the hobby here – not just one mindset

And while I understand the desire to share the latest and greatest rule set or miniature -a moratorium for time is fine by me

I am not at all a fan of the artificial use of social media to drum up interest in a product

HMS Exeter26 Jun 2020 3:48 p.m. PST

Should we infer from their item 7 that they do not employ LGBTQ+ individuals?

rustymusket26 Jun 2020 3:57 p.m. PST

I am glad I am old and not as participative in the hobby as I once was. I have relied on TMP for information on history and miniatures throughout my hobby career. I don't understand what is going on here, but I do not think it is good. I wish I knew how to make things better, but I am not that smart. Sorry.

Gray Bear26 Jun 2020 3:58 p.m. PST

I'm not on Face(ist) Book or any other Social(ist) Media. This reinforces my decision. Nothing good comes of it except to nasty billionaires. Maybe Bill should reconsider having a FB account. While I don't agree with everything at TMP, it is still a great site I'm glad exists.

By the way, isn't TFL an insulting and discriminatory name for those whose weight is not proportionate to their height? Bigotry says I.

Fitzovich26 Jun 2020 4:08 p.m. PST

Give it a rest. The whole thing by both sides is more than childish.

Redcurrant26 Jun 2020 4:19 p.m. PST

+1 for Fitzovich

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian26 Jun 2020 4:20 p.m. PST

The important point to be made here – and I hope the advertisers are listening – is that in fact, the TFL forum is far more toxic than anything allowed on TMP.

Have we ever allowed attacks on someone's religion? No.

Do we allow attacks on someone's sexual preference? No.

Do we allow personal attacks at all? No.

Make the comparison, and decide which is the most "toxic."

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian26 Jun 2020 4:32 p.m. PST

Some commentary, sent anonymously:

What you are currently experiencing is a classic SJW attack, though I would not have expected such tactics from Richard Clarke. May I suggest you purchase and read ""SJW's Always Lie: Taking down the Thought Police" by Castalia House Publishing (get Kindle version). It will walk you though what you are experiencing, and how ultimately to defend against it.

Some relevant sections:

"SJWs always prefer easy targets. And unsuspecting targets are the easiest of them all.

The conventional SJW attack sequence is an eight-step routine that can be observed in most historical SJW attacks. The whole attack sequence is based upon the foundation of a narrative defined by the SJW and is intended to validate that narrative while publicly demonstrating the SJW's power over his target. As you will be able to see, the SJW attack routine is loosely based on Rule 12 of Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals.

RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)

The eight stages of the SJW attack sequence are as follows:
(1) Locate or Create a Violation of the Narrative.
(2) Point and Shriek.
(3) Isolate and Swarm.
(4) Reject and Transform.
(5) Press for Surrender.
(6) Appeal to Amenable Authority.
(7) Show Trial.
(8) Victory Parade.

SJWs don't like to be seen as the vicious attack dogs they are because that flies in the face of their determination to present themselves as victims holding the moral high ground. This presents somewhat of a challenge for them, of course, since it is difficult to be proactive about your thought-policing if you need to stand around waiting for someone to victimize you first. SJWs have solved this problem by adopting three standard tactics: self-appointed public defense, virtual victimhood, and creative offense-taking."


You are currently at Point 3 on the list. They will not stop. Use this information to defend yourself, TMP, your advertisers and to keep up morale. It is easier to defend against something when you know what it is.

Or don't, I'm just showing you where to look.

This is different, a new form of warfare that is rapidly encompassing everything, everywhere. There is no option but to fight or be destroyed. Your choice. Information is key. The TMP membership should be made aware of it, it will better help them make sense of things.

The choice is yours. Good luck.

genew4926 Jun 2020 4:39 p.m. PST

I have not experienced any of the above on TFL Forum. I have experienced personal attacks and subtle attacks on my religion. I have expressed both to you in recent posts.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian26 Jun 2020 4:43 p.m. PST

I have experienced personal attacks and subtle attacks on my religion. I have expressed both to you in recent posts.

If you did not hit the Complaint Button, we may not have been aware you were filing a complaint. I have no memory of our previous discussion. My apologies. TMP is a large place.

duke177626 Jun 2020 5:13 p.m. PST

I have never posted before. I am a Marine afghan vet and my politics lean to the right, just to get that out of the way. I have enjoyed reading on this website for several years. I think it is fair that I come to your defense, since I feel I have benefited from this site with no return.

The haters have a Euro viewpoint on speech that is alien to many Americans. They fling about terms like inclusiveness and fostering a positive environment, but all that is really code for our speech is OK and yours is not. In my life every person who claims they are the most tolerant are in fact the most intolerant people I have ever met.

As far as the little naked minis, I got a little hint for everyone. I am pretty sure they sell well. What is everyone a puritan these days? There is an adult filter. Injecting the insane politics of today into our hobby is cancer.

The woke police will come for them and they will come for our hobby mark my words. TFL have you been making money off a product that has a naaazzzi on the cover? It would go a long way for you to donate some of your profits to fund your local civil rights organization. Dont you have a friend that has a confederate ACW army? That is very troubling. I am not sure his children are being brought up in a home that reflects the values of today. I think we should call the state.

The last thing I will say is to everyone, grow a spine. Imagine being a grown man and crying about what someone said to you over the internet, on a website devoted to lead toy soldiers. Get a grip.

Raynman Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2020 5:31 p.m. PST

What Duke1776 said! Everyone put on your big person pants and move on. Bill, don't let the bastards wear you down! Step back and move on. I read this site a couple times a day. I don't go to the Blue Fez, because I see some really idiotic things there and get pissed off. I just don't go there. All the other pages I depend on for answers to questions I just don't have a clue on. I depend on the collective hive mind for history and gaming you have here. You try to keep us all civil with one another and if they don"t like it, They can F@#$ off. Keep up the great work! And if they bring up your race, religion or the sexuality of your employees, just shut them down. None of their darn business!

Thank you for what you have here. I appreciate it!

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian26 Jun 2020 6:10 p.m. PST

It is hard to understand what would motivate Two Fat Lardies to try to take the jobs away from three people, two of them in the poorest part of the world.

Dn Jackson26 Jun 2020 6:21 p.m. PST

This is why I have no social media. Ignorance is bliss. :-)

However, I understand why Bill is notifying us about what's going on and fighting back on Face Book. To not do so would hurt his name, his company's name, and, eventually, his income.

I'm glad he let us know what's going on.

NWMike26 Jun 2020 6:38 p.m. PST

If these proposals are so great, let's see TFL implement them.

Extrabio194726 Jun 2020 6:56 p.m. PST

Like Mark Twain said:

"Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it."

BadMoon26 Jun 2020 7:19 p.m. PST

I have been coming here almost daily for more years than I care number. I seldom log in, I just read what interests me and move on, it wasn't until just now I realized I hadn't logged in, in over a year. I am unsure how long it been since I commented on anything. I come here to read about miniatures and games and normally try to ignore these bits of "drama" when they occur. I would like to say that I appreciate this website and all the work you(Bill) and your staff do to keep it up and running. I have never been a part of anything that didn't have someone in charge and some rules. I have understood from the start that this is your site that you allow me to access and participate on for free as long as I follow the rules of behavior you have put in place. If I was a guest in your home and you ask me to take off my shoes or not to smoke indoors I would either do so, or I'd leave, and the same is equally true at TMP, I can leave at any point I find the rules unacceptable, Bill's house, Bill's rules. The Editor has on occasion made some calls I disagreed with, but as I said his house, his rules. I for one, will continue to visit, read about my favorite hobby regardless of any "drama" on social media. Bill, you and your staff do a good job.

jdpintex26 Jun 2020 7:37 p.m. PST

And people wonder why I don't engage in social media

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2020 8:26 p.m. PST

Some people are just plain evil – psychopaths and sociopaths.

Others can just be mean, rude, cruel, and not the brightest crayons in the box.

Sadly, the number of really nice, considerate people seems to be dwindling over time.

Lascaris26 Jun 2020 8:31 p.m. PST

I don't pay enough attention to know what the driver is behind the latest explosion but I do have to say that no online community I visit has nearly the level of drama that TMP undergoes on a semi-annual basis. I don't understand it and while it used to be semi-amusing to watch it's just tiresome now.

TMPISNAFF Supporting Member of TMP27 Jun 2020 6:04 a.m. PST

I don't expect this post to last very long before it is deleted.
Bill's initial post at the top of this thread is pure twaddle, and not accurate at all.
It has been highly edited by Bill, and slanted by him to show himself in a favourable light and cast scorn on his detractors. there is no balance.
It is full of Bill's 'wounded and hurt' rhetoric. In my opinion it is immature and histrionic.
You could, of course, have made up your own minds about the matter, but were denied this possibility, by Bill deleting all the posts to the Facebook page mentioned, and restricting further posting. He has since replaced some of the posts, favourable to his case, but they don't read sensibly without the deleted ones.
Some people are supporting Bill blindly, without being in possession of the full facts, or truth.
Thus it always was on TMP, and I have come to expect it.
I have never abused or name called anyone on TMP until now.

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP27 Jun 2020 7:20 a.m. PST

Jarrovian, Martin, of Peter Pig was subjected to attacks apparently, by TFL and their "fanboys", so it's not just Bill.

Clearly, there is/was an ongoing campaign of harassment to try to get people to drop advertising, and/or other business with TMP.

In some cases it was successful. In others it backfired.

In addition, people have continued to post/try to post various things here just to rub salt into the wounds as well, which has left many I suspect with no further desire to purchase additional TFL products due to these incidents.

whill427 Jun 2020 7:30 a.m. PST

Do manufacturers have to pay the The Wargames Website and the Wargames and News blog to get their products mentioned?

Legion 427 Jun 2020 8:28 a.m. PST

Nothing else will suit the mob.
Mob rule is no rule. As we see when you turn on the news recently.

No one forces anyone to go on/join TMP … I mean AFAIK ? huh? evil grin

I have understood from the start that this is your site that you allow me to access and participate on for free as long as I follow the rules of behavior you have put in place. If I was a guest in your home and you ask me to take off my shoes or not to smoke indoors I would either do so, or I'd leave, and the same is equally true at TMP, I can leave at any point I find the rules unacceptable, Bill's house, Bill's rules. The Editor has on occasion made some calls I disagreed with, but as I said his house, his rules.
I agree totally. thumbs up

+10 to BadMoon !

And I appreciate a logical and adult post like this one and some of the others that commented on this thread.

Totally agree with the comments about SJWs. Whoever posted those words of wisdom. thumbs up

If you want drama … get Hulu or Netflix … wink

Also +10 duke1776 thumbs up

Darrell B D Day27 Jun 2020 9:23 a.m. PST

The haters have a Euro viewpoint on speech that is alien to many Americans. They fling about terms like inclusiveness and fostering a positive environment

A side issue but I don't get duke1776s point. Surely these attitudes are the children of Political Correctness, an insidious doctrine that I thought originated in US Universities.

DBDD

Legion 427 Jun 2020 9:26 a.m. PST

Not sure where is started, but yes insidious doctrine is a good description, IMO. And very well may have started on US campuses and schools.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian27 Jun 2020 10:18 a.m. PST

Bill's initial post at the top of this thread is pure twaddle, and not accurate at all.
It has been highly edited by Bill, and slanted by him to show himself in a favourable light and cast scorn on his detractors. there is no balance.

Jarrovian, it is a somewhat humorous attempt to summarize the actual demands that have been made on Facebook, both on the TFL Facebook feed and the TMP Facebook feed, or in direct messages to myself.

Every single item is based on an actual statement someone has made, or my interpretation thereof.

Take #1 for example. TFL and their fans continue to assert that if one of their fans comes onto TMP and breaks forum rules, and gets kicked off our site, that somehow TMP is "bullying" that person. According to someone posting on TFL's official FB feed, violating TMP forum rules is an allowed form of protest. So I have humorously summarized this as "no rules allowed" because that's what it comes down to, doesn't it?

Tony S27 Jun 2020 12:00 p.m. PST

So I have humorously summarized this as "no rules allowed" because that's what it comes down to, doesn't it?

C'mon Bill. You're an intelligent man. You know that those posters objected to only your rule about posting news items in the regular threads. I think your attempt at levity might have come at an inopportune time.

I sincerely doubt anyone objects to any forum rules about posting any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any laws be it of your country, the country where TMP is hosted or International Law.

Bede1900227 Jun 2020 3:09 p.m. PST

Bleeped text TFL.

Their rules are so over-rated. And those stupid, English humor names.

Poorly written as well. If you ask them to clarify you'll get that Deleted by Moderator attitude: the rules don't need to explain everything. Use your common sense!

Good riddance.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian27 Jun 2020 4:47 p.m. PST

I sincerely doubt anyone objects to any forum rules about posting any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any laws be it of your country, the country where TMP is hosted or International Law.

I hesitate to mention it, but ever been to Frothers? (shudder)

Racism. Porn. Privacy violations.

And a lot of the same people have suddenly become TFL fans.

Stoppage28 Jun 2020 3:26 a.m. PST

The conventional SJW attack sequence is an eight-step routine

Wargames forum website!! Check

Description of Tactics!! Check

This is the real thing!

I see a card-based wargame perhaps with a Nuclear-War style random spinner, perhaps with a Junta-style end-game "mechanic".

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