"Markings for 2nd Armoured Battalion- Grenadier Guards" Topic

I'm trying to get the markings correct on tanks for the Guards Armoured Division, 5th Guards Armoured Brigade, 2nd Armoured Battalion- Grenadier Guards. This would be for June/July 1944 fighting around Caen.
I have read through some other threads and done some limited research online and one of the better guides I found is this: link

I have a few things I would like to confirm if possible:
1. I have 4 Shermans and 1 Firefly for a Squadron. These will have a red square with a white 51 in it (front) and a red triangle on the sides of the hull. I was going to paint the inside of the triangle black and have a white number in it also. Does this sound correct? What number range would be correct for inside the triangle?
2. I have 1 Stuart for a Recce troop. What would be the correct squadron/element marking for it?
3. I have 3 Cromwells for a Squadron. I'm not sure what a correct Battalion and Squadron markings would be.
4. For all the tanks, I also have the division emblem (front), yellow bridge discs (front), serial numbers (hull sides) and white stars with circles (on the rear engine decks). Does the star location sound correct?

Thanks for your help.

There would have eeen no Cromwell in that battalion. The Cromwells would have been in 2nd Welsh Guards, the Armoured Recce Bn.

1. Looks fine to me.

I painted my Shermans as Troops 1 and 2, A Squadron, 1st Armoured Battalion ColdStream Guards of the Guards Armoured Division. The number inside the triangle is the troop number.

link

2. For the Stuart, you can use a Red Diamond (Battalion Recce squadron)

My Stuart from the Recce squadron of the 1st Armoured Battalion ColdStream Guards of the Guards Armoured Division.

link

3. The Cromwell would be fine for a Squadron, 2nd Armoured Recce battalion, Welsh Guards of the Guards Armoured Division.

link

4. I put mine on the turret for the Stuart. the rear deck was too small.

Olivier

Hi Dirt,

1. Yes, red squadron symbols on the sides of the hull (all Guards Armoured Division squadron signs were painted on the hull, not the turret). And yes, there would be a '51' on a red square on the front and rear right of the hull. The divisional sign would be painted on the front and rear left of the hull.

Diamond – HQ Squadron (including Stuarts and Crusader AA tanks)
Triangle = No.1 Squadron
Square = No.2 Squadron
Circle = No.3 Squadron

The 'inside' of the squadron signs were certainly painted black at the start of the campaign, though some tanks photographed later in the campaign appear not to have had this black bit (though it's hard to tell in black & white photography).

The white numbers were unique to each tank. Similar systems were used by various regiments and all seem to have been different, so it's difficult to know. Some regiments also used troop numbers, though the Grenadiers certainly went for indiviual tank numbers. I would suggest perhaps 1-30 for HQ Squadron, 31-50 for No.1 Sqn, 51-70 for No.2 Sqn and 71-90 for No.3 Sqn?

2. As mentioned above, the Stuarts and Crusader AAs formed part of the HQ Squadon, so put a diamond on the hull-sides.

3. The Cromwells belonged to 2nd Welsh Guards. Arm-of-Service squares were '45' on a green-over-blue square. Squadron signs were white and again were painted on the hull sides (very small – on the stowage boxes). They also painted a squadron sign on the hull-front (between the driver's port and the MG) and a large one on the hull-rear. They don't seem to have used black centres. Instead of individual tank-numbers, The Welsh Guards used letters for each Squadron HQ tank (A-D) and the numbers 1-5, indicating the seniority of the Troop within the Squadron. So a Squadron would look like:

HQ Troop: ABCD (C&D being 95mm CS tanks)
1st Troop: 111
2nd Troop: 222
3rd Troop: 333
4th Troop: 444
5th Troop: 555

They adopted Challengers at the end of the Normandy Campaign (1 per Troop) and reorganised the squadrons, which now looked like this:

ABC (B&C being 95mm CS tanks)
1111
2222
3333
4444

4. Division signs and Arm-of-Service squares should be painted front AND rear. Yup, the engine deck was a common place to paint the star, as was the turret-top. Yes, it was normally circled when painted on the top deck. Cromwells, Challengers and Crusader AAs frequently also had an uncircled star painted on the turret rear.

Some previous discussion here:

TMP link

TMP link

TMP link

Sorry, my memory was playing up there. The Welsh Guards used the Troop number, not the seniority within each squadron. Thus No.1 Sqn would have 1-5, No.2 Sqn 6-10 and No.3 Sqn would have 11-15. After reorganisation that became 1-4, 5-8 & 9-12.

Thanks for all the above direction.
FYI, this is a Guards chart that I've been referencing: PDF link

There are a few points that I'd like to clarify and confirm:
1. Stuart: I will go ahead and use a triangle. Would it be red or white? Would the regiment red square have a 50 or 51 in it? I'm thinking that 50 would have a white triangle with it and 51 would have a red triangle with it. Can I use either combination?
2. Cromwells: I will use the green over blue square with a 45 in it for the regiment. For the squadron, if all 3 tanks are part of the No. 2 Squadron, should I use a white square? And to be clear, each tank will have it's own different number in the white square (for example 6, 7 & 9)?

Thanks again for all the help.

Hi DH,

Excellent choice of orbat! ;)

1. Don't use a triangle for the Stuart. As mentioned above, Stuarts and Crusader AA tanks belonged to the HQ Squadron, so always had diamonds.

HQ Squadron – Diamonds
A Squadron – Triangles
B Squadron – Squares
C Squadron – Circles

The Grenadier Guards had '51' as their Arm of Service serial number. This signified the senior armoured regiment in the Brigade. '50' is the Brigade HQ, so don't use that. Seniority was also shown by the colour of the squadron signs:

50 – Armoured Brigade HQ (no squadron signs)
51 – Senior Armoured Regt (Grenadier Guards – red squadron signs)
52 – 2nd Armoured Regt (Coldstream Guards – yellow squadron signs)
53 – Junior Armoured Regt (Irish Guards – light blue squadron signs)
54 – Motor Battalion (bright green squadron signs)

So the Grenadier Guards had '51' and red squadron signs.

2. Yes, use white signs for the Welsh Guards Cromwells and yes, a square would indicate No.2 Sqn. As mentioned above; unlike the Grenadier Guards (who used individual tank numbers for each tank), the Welsh Guards used troop numbers. Just to clarify, No.2 Squadron would look like this:

Sqn HQ Troop: A B C D (C & D were 95mm CS tanks)
6 Troop: 6 6 6
7 Troop: 7 7 7
8 Troop: 8 8 8
9 Troop: 9 9 9
10 Troop: 10 10 10

As mentioned earlier, I don't know exactly what the numbering scheme was for the Grenadier Guards, though my rough guess would be:

HQ Squadron: Tanks numbered 1-21 (includes 4x Sherman, 6x Crusader AA & 11x Stuart)
A Squadron: Tanks numbered 22-40 (19x Sherman)
B Squadron: Tanks numbered 41-59 (19x Sherman)
C Squadron: Tanks numbered 60-78 (19x Sherman)

My mistake above, the Stuarts will definitely have diamonds. I will use a red diamond along with the red '51'.

Jemima, I (mis)understood your last post on 12/12 to indicate that each Cromwell would have a unique number. But per your recent post, they should all have the same number. So I can use '3' for all 3 of the Cromwells.

Yes, you can use '3' (No.3 Troop) for all three Cromwells, but strictly speaking, they'd need to be No.1 Squadron (triangles) (Nos. 1-5 Troops).

Sorry, I should have mentioned earlier that the Guards Armoured Division for some reason used numbered squadrons and companies, when virtually everyone else used letters!

So where I said A, B & C Squadrons above, I meant No.1, No.2 & No.3 Squadrons.

OK, I think I get it for the Cromwells.
I want to use the whites squares so the numbers will be something like 7, 8 & 9.
Thanks again.

My bad again, the Cromwells will all have the same number (between 6-10) in the white square.

I also have an Achilles and Wolverine. 21st Anti-Tank Regiment Royal Artillery is the right place for them in the Guards Armoured Division. This means a red over blue square with a '77' in it and the division sign on both the front and rear. White star with circle on the rear decks. Bridge discs up front.

There are a few things I was looking to get help on:
What would the squadron signs and numbering be?
The serial number should start with an 'S', correct?
Are there any other markings that should be on either of the AFV's?

Hi Dirt,

Yes, all correct re the M10. Guards Armoured Division did have a few M10 (3-inch) at the start of the campaign, but steadily upgraded them all to M10c (17pdr).

NB Wolverine and Achilles were post-war names for them. During the war they were just known as M10 & M10c. Similarly Archer was the post-war name for the Valentine SP 17pdr.

The Royal Artillery had its own system of markings to identify Batteries, Troops and individual vehicles, which is described in detail here:

link

These markings were about 3/4 the size of the Arm of Service square and were usually painted immediately above the Arm of Service ('77') square. However, they could also be painted elsewhere, including on the turret or hull sides.

Yes, the reg. number starts with an 'S' on M10s.

Other markings can include un-circled stars on the hull or turret sides: I've seen examples of both in photos from NW Europe, though they remained rare.

Quick question and not to be picky. Wasn't 2nd Welsh Guards Challengers the exception to the rule about squadron signs in Guards Armored Division not being on the turret?

And thanks to Jemima Fawr under another guise here was able to mark my Guards Armored Division for Rapid Fire.

No, all four armoured regiments had squadron signs on the hull – it was a divisional thing.