"Markings for HQ elements British Armored Regiment" Topic

First many thanks for all those who have helped me navigate the topic on markings for British units. I am continuing work on the Irish Guards Regiment of the Guards Armored Division for 44-45 NW Europe.

Looking at markings for the various elements such as the Recce Squadron and Crusader AA elements assigned to the Regimental HQ. I know they would use the diamond symbol for HQ and blue for seniority. However would the Stuarts, Crusader AA and other elements also carry 53 AoS serial on the red flash as well as the Guards symbol or would say the Stuarts carry a different AoS since they are recce?

AoS marking for their regiment.

I second Derek H for that is what I did for my Stuart Recce troop of the 1st Armoured Battalion, ColdStream Guards.

link

Olivier

Thank you both for your help. Great pics Olivier!

Did Guards Armoured get rid of the turrets on their Stuarts? If so when?

TMP link

I've not seen any evidence for it. 7th Armoured Division arived in Normandy with a proportion already jalopied. 11th Armoured Division jalopied a proportion of theirs after 'Eposom'. Guards Armoured Division seem to have stuck with their turrets throughout.

Re markings – the Guards Armoured Division regiments all carried their squadron signs on the hull-sides and not on the turrets. They were also usually filled in with black, with an ID number painted in the centre (usually in white), though the exact scheme varied from regiment to regiment.

I've also seen pictures of them with squadron signs on the front and back.

And sometimes none on the sides at all.

Yes, the Welsh Guards Cromwells were particularly well-marked, with squadron signs always (at least in all the photos I've seen) painted front and rear. They also painted the signs very small on the side bins, so they're easy to miss.

R Mark Davies;

In the Concord Armor At War Series #7062 "British Sheman Tanks" a picture of a 2nd Grenadier Guards Sherman has this caption "The Grenadier Guards did not use squadron signs but rather a system whereby the tanks were number (sic) sequentially throughout the battalion."

The picture clearly shows a Grenadier Guards tank and on the left hull side a number "23" with the two straddling the applique armor. I have been burned by some of the data in the Concord books before but is this correct?

In the same book is a picture of a Firefly of the Coldstream Guards. On the center section of the 3 piece nose appears to be a squadron sign (square in this case) filled in with a dark center and the number "3". The turret is rotated so its rear is forward. On the blanket box appears to be the same scheme, the squadron sign with a dark center only this time no small number. Instead, in large letters/numbers, the sign is flanked by a "3" and a "C". Believe this system of number and letter combinations were used by the Coldstream Guard?

So perhaps a variety? As stated though I have yet to see a picture which definitely shows a Guards Armored Division tank with the squadron sign on the turret side, but apparently the rear is a possibility.

The number/letter combo is the tanks radio call sign – 3 troop 4th tank (troop CO used just the number) wasn't particular to the Coldstreams most Regiments used it either painted of the turret rear or on a board fixed to the engine deck.
Don't know about the Grenadier Guards but two digit numbers were used by several regiments mainly in the independant armoured brigades.

Hi Marc,

Sorry for the lack of response. I missed your question earlier.

As you say, there are various issues and downright errors in the Concorde books, but then don't they all somewhere? They remain excellent books. Unfortunately I don't have them here at the moment (loaned out), so can't answer specifics. As Bully says, two-digit numbers were used by other regiments, including others in Guards Armoured Division. I'd be very surprised indeed if they didn't use the sqaudron signs, when all the other regiments in the division did. As you say though, I can't think of an example offhand of a Grenadier tank photo (though the lack of a photo isn't really proof either way). I recall that Sanders' oop Osprey Vanguard book on Guards Armoured Division showed squadron signs, with individual tank numbers painted (in white) within the sign – a scheme repeated on the Firefly in Bovington, which is painted as a Grenadier Guards tank.

It may also be the case that the squadron sign is invisible in the B&W photo, having the same refective register as the background olive drab, so you can see the white number, but not the red sign. There are other examples from Guards Armoured Division of individual tank numbers being painted within the squadron sign. Other regiments/brigades often painted troop numbers within the sign, while others painted a (usually large) individual tank number on the hull or turret side, separate to the squadron sign.

Re the Coldstreams – that is a radio callsign board, which would be hung from the turret rear. For example, 'Charlie Three Able' would be the first ('Able') tank (not including the troop leader, who did not usually have a letter) of the third troop of C ('Charlie') Squadron and would therefore have '3A' hanging off the back. The whole troop would probably have '3' (troop leader), '3A', '3B' and '3C'.

Callsign systems were often changed for security reasons, hence the removable board. This system was generally used by all regiments, though only a few (including the Coldstreamers) appear to have displayed the callsigns. I've also seen these boards used by 3 RTR (11th Armoured Div) and others. Note that Fireflies often had the 'Charlie' designation, as 'Charlie' was also the mark suffix for a 17pdr tank (e.g. Sherman Mk Vc)

We really are getting into baffling territory here – note that our tank mentioned above might also have an individual tank number (somewhere in the region of '74') painted on the side, and/or the troop number (11 – being the 11th 'sabre' troop in the regiment).

Thank you all, enjoying this exchange and appreciate all the attempts to educate me.

R Mark Davies, I hear what you say on the numbers and sort of figured the scheme. Having spent 25+ years in the military, 21 of those as an intelligence officer, the removable boards make sense. However, in these photos of the Coldstream Guard tanks rather then removable boards it appears these are painted, in large white numbers and letters, directly on the back of the blanket box (believe that is the proper term for the storage box on the turret rear?).

If someone has the Concord book Armor at War Series #7062 "British Sherman Tanks" and can look at the picture on the bottom of page 42 perhaps they can see something that eludes these aging eyes.

Once again thank you to all for a most enjoyable exchange.

I agree that it's entirely possible that they were painted on. While these things were 'meant' to be changed, I've never heard of this actually happening – the system described above seems to have been permanently in place in most regiments.

The removable boards I described can be seen in a famous sequence of photos, showing the Shermans of 2nd Coldstream Guards (specifically Robert Boscawen's troop) driving through Catheolles ('Mortar Gulch') during Operation 'Bluecoat', passing the Churchills of 4th Grenadier Guards (6th Guards Tank Bde) coming the other way.

If you can find the full sequence of photos, I remember that it also shows tanks of the 2nd Grenadier Guards (as well as halftracks of the 1st Grenadiers) passing the same spot, so there might be some answers there for you.

Here's one from 1945 with the callsign (2C) painted on the rear:

Found it at last. Here's what I was talking about – Robert Boscawen's troop (his tank is marked '2') passing the 4th Grenadiers at Catheolles. Note that here the callsigns are painted on to removable plates, which are wired on to the turret box:

, my last photo now seems to have corrupted and has been replaced by the Red Cross of Doom. The link for it is here: link

I've just remembered that like the Bovington Firefly, the IWM's Sherman is also marked as a 2nd Grenadiers tank and again has the individual tank number painted in white, within the red squadron sign. However, as with all museum exhibits, it's difficult to know if it's accurate without knowing what their source is.

I did find this photo of a 2nd Grenadiers Sherman. The tank number '23' is obvious, but the squadron sign is less obvious. To my eyes it does appear as if there is a faint square painted around the number:

Another 2nd Grenadiers Sherman here, but this time it's impossible to tell if there's a squadron sign or not – the joint effects of dirt and black & white photography:

Many thanks once again. Indeed some of those, especially #23, are reproduced in the Concord British Sherman book. Though a little clearer in the book it is still impossible on #23 to tell if a squadron sign present or not.

Darn inconsiderate of the photographers not to anticipate gamers and modelers 60 plus years in the future would want to know these things! :)

The IWM B numbers for the Shermans/Churchills mentioned earlier.
Put the numbers in the search box here:

link

B8599, 8600,8601,8603 and 8608.

The result is in the 'Collections' set. Use 'THE BRITISH ARMY IN NORMANDY 1944' hit. Click on the photo description.

You have to leave a gap between the 'B' and the number. Use B 8600 not B8600