"Guards Armoured Div squadron markings" Topic

I've read that the Guards put their squadron markings on their hulls during Market Garden, not the turrets like other Brit armoured units. Can anyone confirm?

I've searched high and low for the Osprey covering the Guards, but have had no luck to date.

You are correct . . . see here for an example from the 2nd AR Bn WG.

picture

Note that in some units the number of digits inside the symbol is two, not one.

Mark

And here is the cover of the Osprey . . . the painting shows another example . . .

link

Dammit! My Welsh Guards are already complete with squadron markings on the turrets!

Thankfully the Irish Guards will be correct. Thanks for confirmation mate.

That's what I did on my Shermans ( link ) and my Cromwells ( link )

Olivier

Almost answers a question I was about to ask…how did British units determine whether they had circle/triangle/square and what colour it was? Also, what were the numbering sequences i.e. 1-3 OC, 2IC and SSM, or what?

Or were we just terribly British and made it up as we went along?

Triangle, square and circle stood for A, B and C squadron respectively. Regimental HQ (really a battalion in the UK army) used a diamond.

3 regiments (battalions) to a brigade, so red was the senior, yellow the second and blue the third. Anything not in a brigade used white.

Example: 22 Armoured Bde 1941
Royal Gloucestershire Hussars Red symbols on the turret
3rd County of London Yeomanry Yellow symbols
4th County of London Yeomanry Blue symbols

So a tank with a blue square on the turret would belong to B squadron of the 3rd regiment while one with a yellow diamond would belong to HQ squadron of the second

What Number 4 said! I'd also add that the brigade's Motor Battalion carries green symbols on its vehicles (mainly Carriers and Halftracks).

The order of seniority in the 5th Guards Armoured Brigade was:
2nd Grenadier Guards – red
1st Coldstream Guards – yellow
2nd Irish Guards – blue
1st Grenadier Guards (Motor Bn) – green

The arm-of-service serial number (on a red square, front and rear) also reflected seniority within the brigade. the AoS serials for the regiments listed above were 51. 52, 53 and 54.

The 2nd Welsh Guards were the Divisional Armoured Recce Regiment, so were outside of the brigade structure. Therefore they had white squadron signs and their AoS serial was 45 on a green-over-blue square.

Yes, the Guards placed the squadron signs on the hull sides and not the turrets. In the case of the Motor Bnthey were painted on the halftrack doors or on the Carrier sides, alongside the driver. In the case of the 2nd Welsh Guards' Cromwells, there was no hull side to speak of, so the signs were painted on the hull front and rear, as well as very small on the side stowage bins.

One curiosity of the Guards is that they tended to persist with the obsolete system of painting the centre of the symbols black (though the Motor Bn and Welsh Guards didn't).

As for individual tank numbering, each Guards regiment had its own bloody cryptic system. Most used an individual tank number, painted white, in the middle of the squadron sign. I don't know the exact details, but typically the RHQ would get 1-20 or 1-30, while each squadron then got a twenty-number block of numbers.

I seem to remember that the Welsh Guards used troop numbers rather than individual tank numbers.

Radio callsigns could also be hung on a plate off the turret rear.

Excellant information! I seem to remember that Canadian armoured units also painted the centre of the squadron symbols black, with small troop numbers within.

I have noticed in photos that many (or at least some) of the Guards tanks had a tactical ID painted on the blanket box ie 1 – C or 2 – B, seperated by a solid white circle (or half circle split horizontally). I'm sure that this was explained by someone and equally sure that I wrote it down against future need. Well, future need has arrived and I can't for the life of me find the information. Any ideas would be appreciated as I am in the midst of painting up several squadrons of Guards and this has really thrown a spanner in the works.

Cheers

The black centre was common in a lot of formations in the middle of the war, so yes, it was seen on the Canadian Churchills at Dieppe. I've not seen it on late war Canadian tanks though. I've only noticed it on the Guards Armoured Div for late war and a Churchill from one of the Tk Bdes.

While mid-war regulations often did have the troop number painted within the symbol (1-15 Troops or 'HQ'), I've only seen Churchill regiments do that in Normandy. However, I've got a nagging suspicion that the 2nd Welsh Guards also did that – I'm looking at a photo here of a WG Cromwell with 'A' in the middle of the symbol, which I think meant the SHQ). I used to know this stuff…

I think the alphanumeric code was a radio callsign? Troops within a squadron would usually be given the numbers 1-4 for radio purposes and the 2nd to 4th tanks within each troop would usually be given A, B & C respectively. So callsigns for the 2nd troop in a squadron might be 2, 2A, 2B & 2C. The troop's Firefly was often allocated the C, as Fireflies were often known as 'Charlie' tanks in any case, due to their 'c' suffix, indicating the 17pdr gun (e.g. Sherman Mk Vc). These callsigns could be painted on the turret rear or painted on removeable plates (as seen on 1st Coldstreams).

Here's a 2 WG Cromwell with '9' for 9 Troop, within the square of 'B' Sqn (remember that the Armoured Recce Regts still had five troops per squadron until Challengers came along):

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And here's the one with 'A' (Squadron HQ?), also from 'B' Sqn 2nd Welsh Guards:

picture

Here's a Firefly from 1st Coldstreams. You can see the individual tank number (52) on the hull side, but the yellow squadron sign is invisible due to the colour register in black and white photography:

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Obviously in this case, the squadron sign was not filled with black.

Thanks RMD. That's just what I was looking for.

Cheers