Wyatt the Odd  | 12 Sep 2013 5:54 p.m. PST |
The Welsh Guards were a bit different in how they marked their tanks, placing the white squadron markings on the hull sides rather than on the turret. They also put numbers inside of these markings but I've not been able to determine whether these were strictly indicating the squadron number or the vehicle number within the squadron. There's this Cromwell of 9 Troop B Squadron Welsh Guards – which would explain the "9"
But, then there's these two shots of the Cromwell of Major J. O. Spencer, Commanding 2 Squadron, 2nd Battalion, Welsh Guards shown just before D-Day while being inspected by the Prime Minister
link
This may be a third photo of the tank:
I suppose that, being part of the HQ, the "A" in the square on the bow would represent the HQ unit. That seems to be born out by this photo of an HQ tank of the 11th Armoured Division:
Or lastly, there's a thought that the "A" was simply the troop identifier ie; A Troop, B Squadron 2WG. But since that decal sheet includes the red-white-red flash for the bow of the tank, I'm not sure how reliable that is. Anyone have a definitive answer? Thanks, Wyatt |
| Etranger | 12 Sep 2013 7:17 p.m. PST |
Guards Armoured didn't follow the same conventions as 11AD so I wouldn't take too much notice of the last photo. RMD is the chap most likely to know. |
| forrester | 12 Sep 2013 11:41 p.m. PST |
A feature which does seem to emerge from photos is that the Welsh Guards put their markings on the lower hull front, rather than by the driver and bow gunner hatches. |
| Jemima Fawr | 13 Sep 2013 2:23 a.m. PST |
Hi Wyatt, There was a thread on this here a couple of years ago, so it might be worth having a look. All regiments in Guards Armoured Division painted the squadron signs on the hull rather than the turret. In the case of 2nd Welsh Guards, that meant they had to be really small, to fit on the stowage bins – a pain if you're looking for decals (I suggest going one scale smaller). Annoyingly, every regiment in the Guards Armoured Division was different in which number they painted within the squadron sign. Some used an individual tank number, but the 2nd Welsh Guards used the Troop number. Sqn HQs used the 'A' designator – I seem to remember that the Sqn HQ tanks used 'A', 'B' & 'C' for Sqn Cdr, Sqn 2IC & SSM. The 'A' on the 11th Armoured Division Cromwell means nothing – it's just a 'chalk-mark' denoting something to do with loading on board ship or organisation at a depot. Note the other various non-standard markings on the front of the tank. |
| Jemima Fawr | 13 Sep 2013 2:26 a.m. PST |
There are some other photos here, showing markings at the rear:
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| Jemima Fawr | 13 Sep 2013 2:29 a.m. PST |
There's another photo here where you can clearly see a '2' painted within the squadron sign. Again – 2 Troop fits with 'A' Sqn:
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| Wyatt the Odd | 13 Sep 2013 3:01 a.m. PST |
Dom pointed me towards the earlier article here:
TMP link It's looking like I need to mark the two HQ vehicles with an "A" or "A" & "B" and then the rest with a troop number. It doesn't look like I'll need to add random stowage as this article implies that stowage was specifically kept identical (at least at first) within a unit link It also looks like the "ghilley suit" camoflauge came and went by Holland.
Wyatt |
| (Another Loser) | 13 Sep 2013 4:34 a.m. PST |
I seem to remember that the Sqn HQ tanks used 'A', 'B' & 'C' for Sqn Cdr, Sqn 2IC & SSM. Any idea what the CS tanks would have ? LES |
| Jemima Fawr | 13 Sep 2013 11:45 p.m. PST |
Les, The CS tanks were normally the 2nd and 3rd tanks in the SHQ, so B & C would be my best guess. There were however, some variations in some units, such as Sqn Cdrs riding in a CS tank. |
| Wyatt the Odd | 14 Sep 2013 9:14 a.m. PST |
So the consensus would be "A" & "B" for HQ and then the troop number on all others? Or is it more a case of "depends on the unit"? Wyatt |
| (Another Loser) | 14 Sep 2013 2:28 p.m. PST |
The CS tanks were normally the 2nd and 3rd tanks in the SHQ, so B & C would be my best guess.There were however, some variations in some units, such as Sqn Cdrs riding in a CS tank. Thanks,i guess with the "left out of battle",somethings could be odd ? LES |
| Jemima Fawr | 16 Sep 2013 5:14 a.m. PST |
Not really. Tanks would stay where they were and would never be LOB unless they were unserviceable. Personnel would be moved around the regiment to cover personnel LOB, casualties, leave, etc. |
| Jemima Fawr | 16 Sep 2013 5:17 a.m. PST |
Wyatt, Yes, the troop number seems to be the number displayed on 2nd Welsh Guards tanks – no other numbers visible in photos. 'A' was certainly used by Sqn Cdrs, though what the 2nd & 3rd HQ tanks (or indeed the RHQ) used is open to conjecture and 'B' & 'C' seems most likely. Remember that there were three tanks in a British Sqn HQ, not two like US & German company HQs. |
| (Another Loser) | 16 Sep 2013 6:45 a.m. PST |
Remember that there were three tanks in a British Sqn HQ, not two like US & German company HQs. Thought there was 4,2 x 75mm and 2 x 95mm armed tanks in a Cromwell SHQ ? LES |
| Jemima Fawr | 16 Sep 2013 9:34 a.m. PST |
No, there was 1x 75 and 2x 95s. Total of 19 tanks in the Squadron (HQ of 3 and 4x Troops of 4). |
| (Another Loser) | 17 Sep 2013 7:17 a.m. PST |
there was 1x 75 and 2x 95s In Overlord,the Churchill SHQ is like that,the SHQ of an Independent Armoured Brigade only has upto 3 Shermans.The SHQs from Armoured Divs (Armoured Regiments and Armoured Recce ) allows,upto 4 Shermans/Cromwells ?  LES |
| Jemima Fawr | 17 Sep 2013 7:53 a.m. PST |
That's a new one on me. I think they might be getting confused with RHQs? As it was, squadrons normally had a War Establishment of 18 tanks – five troops of three tanks and an SHQ of three tanks. When Fireflies were introduced in 1944, the troop organisation was increased to four tanks (though only four troops) and the squadron War Establishment was temporarily increased to 19 tanks to enable the SHQ to be maintained at three tanks. A four-tank SHQ would require a 20-tank squadron and I've never seen one that strong. |
| spontoon | 22 Sep 2013 1:01 p.m. PST |
I would have thought the Welsh Guards would just have vehicle names full of L's, N's, W's and no vowels! |
| Jemima Fawr | 22 Sep 2013 1:26 p.m. PST |
Hilarious. W is a vowel in Welsh, as is Y. There are therefore two more vowels in Welsh than in English. The frequency of vowels in Welsh is also higher than in Enlgish, with a great many Welsh words consisting of nothing but vowels. But let's not get facts get in the way of a good old racial stereotype. Gotta go, as my velcro gloves and split-crotch waders need cleaning. |
| spontoon | 01 Oct 2013 7:27 p.m. PST |
Velcro gloves? Now I didn't know that " w" is a vowel in Welsh! Did know about the double DD thing. |
| Jemima Fawr | 02 Oct 2013 11:41 a.m. PST |
To ensure a good grip! :) |
| Lion in the Stars | 02 Oct 2013 12:38 p.m. PST |
Velcro gloves? related to the joke about why Scotsmen wear kilts… ==========
Now, back to the topic. I might be persuaded to run Cromwells in NWE. I certainly have 7AD in the Desert, but I'm trying to cut back on how many armies I have. |
| spontoon | 05 Oct 2013 8:00 a.m. PST |
Velcro gloves and kilts? Now I'm really confused! Not to mention the waders… |
| Jemima Fawr | 05 Oct 2013 9:09 a.m. PST |
Cliff-edges are handy as well (so they push back harder)… |
| spontoon | 06 Oct 2013 7:26 a.m. PST |
The tanks? I am truly confused, now. Must have something to do with red skirts and witches hats! Got to go get my kilt aired oout. |
| (Another Loser) | 06 Oct 2013 9:01 a.m. PST |
I am truly confused, now. Must have something to do with red skirts and witches hats! Try sheep !! LES |
| spontoon | 11 Oct 2013 6:02 p.m. PST |
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