"28mm Australian Aboriginals!" Topic

Does this mean that there have been between 50-100 requests already?

link

CC
TMP link
TMP link

Link, link, link. . . . click on link . . . more links and links to links . . . christ almighty CC you're link mad . . .

This is what the site says, but I still don't know if they go by 50 figure increments.

CC
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"As soon as the total number of figures requested reaches 150 for the 100 Club and 600 for the 300 Club (the number Eureka needs to break even), and at least ten (10) customers have registered interest, each person who has made an order will be contacted by e-mail to confirm the order is still required . . .

How do I tell progress?
Once a request has been accepted, (we reserve the right to delete unsuitable requests) it will be added to the web site.
As we receive orders for the figure you will be able to keep track of how many have been requested via the Status Box underneath the particular request.
Please note that once your request goes on line, you will need to register how many models you want by utilising the shopping program.
When the target has been reached, each person who has made an order will be contacted by e-mail to confirm the order is still required. Provided the confirmations remain at the required number or above, the figure will then go into production.
We will indicate the anticipated month of desptach. Your credit card will be charged when the figures are despatched.
eurekamin.com.au/custom.php

Mongrel1,

LOL. I guess that, just for you, I can either start making stuff up without any reference links or I can start pasting pages and pages and pages of text. :)

CC

CC I don't know why I let you drive me crazy, but it just happens . . nearly every day. I don't even know you and most of the time I don't post, then I get all agitated and slam something down here . . . .

Why have you got this effect on me? Am I going demented? (I'm sure there will be some good answers to that one)

Frank

"I don't know why I let you drive me crazy, but it just happens . . nearly every day . . . then I get all agitated and slam something down here . . . ."

Frank,

Don't worry. I have the same effect on my wife, my brothers and my sister. :)

CC

Well, CC, for what it's worth, you're my favorite on these boards, hands down. Hell, I've not only developed at least a passing interest in things Caveman, but I also have deveolped an almost knee jerk reaction when I come across something interesting regarding prehistoric things on the internet: "I bet CC would be interested in that."

Thanks Mjkerner!

I believe in sharing whatever I find. And I do find a lot.

CC

Do you do any work?

I guess I will have to email Nic at Eureka to explain to me how the tracking works on the 100 Club requests.

CC

Not another Victor Meldrew moment Frank…lol too much time on your hands mate, get some South africans sculpted

It means there have been at least 50 requests already: you still have 100 to go.

Yep, this has come up before. The next incriment is either 75+ or 100+, I can't recall. Either way, it looks like it is still just you & me with the orders in for them.

I feel obliged to point out that the noun form is 'Aborigine' and that 'Aboriginal' is an adjective. Hence
'Australian aborigines' vs 'an aboriginal rock painting'.

If you feel more culturally sensitive, you might use an appellation more descriptive of the particular group you are describing be that specific or the more generic, popular useages like Kooris, Murris etc. Sorry to be a pedant but it grates.

CH2 is correct when he says that the term Aboriginies should be used but to use terms such as Koori/Murris it depends on which part of Australia the Aboriginies are from. Descibing a Kalkadoon warrior as a Koori, for example would be incorrect. I don't think Cacique Carib can be desribed as lacking in cultural sensitivity because he didn't use those terms.
Anyway, some nice 28mm figures would be nice.
Andrew

Yes it did sound a bit hectoring upon reflection. Aborigines is used as a generic descriptor and I didn't mean to imply it was inappropriate or that CC was being insensitive, merely that the term is so broad as to conote less than a more precise descriptor. I suppose to that end the breadth of terms such as Murri and Koori are in and of themselves quite imprecise. The noun vs adjective thing though has always grated.

Just a thought that occurs: what do the people concerned actually call themselves, or prefer to be called, as a group? (That is, particular sub-groups might be called Koori, or Murri, as C. M. 2 indicates, in the same way as a Bavarian, or Hanoverian, might be called within an overall "German" designation, and that within a wider "European" one; but is there a comparable set of designations in Australia?) I don't know, and am simply asking out of interest. I know that, at least in the 1960s/70s, some "Indians" in the USA preferred to be known as "The Red Man", and laughed at the "politically correct" term "Native American"; personally, I rather like the current "First Nations" terminology, but don't know its status amongst the people themselves. Any thoughts?

Guys,

Thanks for the education, and I take no offense at all. I actually appreciate it, really.

On a previous thread about the original Australians, someone said that the word "Aborigines" was derrogatory. I was simply trying to avoid any linguistic objections that might obscure the actual point of the thread.

CC
PS. "Link, link, link. . . . click on link . . . more links and links to links . . . christ almighty CC you're link mad . . ."
Mongrel, you want text instead of links. John the OFM wants links instead of long text. John is much, much nicer, so I guess links it is. :)

Two questions, comments here. Why would you want Aborigines in the first place? Did they fight any battles against the settlers? From what little I've read ['Blood on the Wattle'] the Aborigines didn't put up much of a fight. Far be it from me to criticize anybody's hobby interests, I'm just curious.

As regards Indians and Aborigines – most Indians I know refer to themselves by tribe, i.e. Sioux, Paiute, etc. Is it true with Aborigines? Again, not trying to be insensitive, just curious.

There were a number of what might generously describe as campaigns/ battles in the 19th C. The 'Kalkadoon War' in Queensland perhaps being the most notable. By and large it's a tragic history, for the most part a one sided slaughter by colonists.

I think CCs interests predates the history of white settlement.

Radmonkey66,

Carlos is correct. I would use the Aborigines for the following:

* Aborigine migration through Flores (vs H. Floresiensis)
* Initial Aborigine arrival to Australia (vs Australian Megafauna).
* Possible Aborigine arrivals to South America (vs the newly arrived "Siberian" migrants)
* Aborigines vs ship-wrecked 16th century Spanish and Portuguese

CC

Thanks for the info. I must admit my knowledge of Aborigine history is quite limited, as is my knowledge of anything that deals with the history of the South Pacific or Southeast Asia.

Appreciate the clarification.

Radmonkey66

Radmonkey66,

I really like this possible scenario:

TMP link

CC

CC,
Thanks for the TMP link. While not my period at all, it does raise some interesting questions. My interest in the Aborigines goes back to a discussion I had with Nic at Historicon back in '01 and he said there was no use for Aborigine figures. My wife is Australian and she and Nic started joking about wargaming with Aborigines, so that's where my question/comment came from.

Again, thanks for the clarification.

Radmonkey66

Wargaming with Australian Aboriginies IS a joke. But there are a couple of illusionarly people who've written some rules for such games and are determined to turn the Outback into some sort of American Wild West so they can sell the rules.

Mongrel 1 finds all this annoying and he is talking from a remote distance in the land of clouds and rain!!! Think what its like for those here in the land of sunshine, who get exposed to direct contact with this tripe!

Daddog.

I would like to assure readers that neither Nic nor I are the product of some conjuror's leger-de-main. And we both have reflections. At this point I have no plans to publish – let alone sell – my Australian frontier game, 'Boomerang'. Nic has previously posted a couple of games on the 19th century battle reports page. If anyone is genuinely interested in gaming the frontier, I would suggest that they start with some light reading. I would recommend 'Queensland Frontier' by Glenville Pike, or "Up Rode the Squatter' or 'River of Gold' by Hector Holthouse. These date from the 60s and 70s, but are agood intoduction to the subject. The more scholarly inclined could try the works of Henry Reynolds, eg 'Frontier' or "The Other Side of the Frontier'

Further to the above, other titles useful to the Australian frontier neophyte that spring to mind include an anthology of frontier experiences called 'Campfire Tales', again by 'Glenville Pike', 'Police of the Pastoral Frontier', on the early years of the Queensland Native Mounted Police, 'Frontier Justice', on events in the Northern territory, 'The Old Colonials', being a collection of pieces on various frontier types, including prospectors and Native police, and describing a few 'collisions', to use the terminology of the era, and 'Outlaws of the Leopolds', a quite detailed account of the Jandamarra outbreak in the Kimberlies. There are innumerable others, and, aside from the output of Henry Reynolds, after almost forty years of research there is now a substantial body of academic work on frontier race relations and conflict in monograph and peer reviewed journal article form. A search of the shelves of your local library will produce at least a couple. The popular history titles listed above also often turn up cheap at book exchanges.

It's not possible to explain in the space available here why the frontier is a valid gaming subject. This demands a complete article. I have done a substantial amount of work on a couple of pieces, one providing general background to the subject, and the other analysing the dynamics of frontier skirmishes. These may see the light of day at some time in the future. In the meantime, interested parties can amuse themselves doing their own research.

Unfortunately there are still a lot of racist people here in Australia who vehemently deny our history of frontier conflict between the colonists and the original inhabitants in order to avoid blame, feelings of guilt and to deny the Aboriginal people the dignity of being recognised as standing up to the colonial invaders. Sometimes this attitude comes from pure indoctrination during their (usually minimal) education years, but sometimes it is intentional, especially when they dismiss any evidence that does not agree with their small-minded, racist opinions.

I would also like to add, "The Australian Frontier Wars", Frontier Conflict, The Australian Experience" and "The Encyclopaedia of Australia's Battles" to Henry Martini's suggested reading list. These are all recent publications too.

Anyway, here's the links to two of the 'Boomerang' games I have played recently. Note that ones of them is an historical scenario.

TMP link

TMP link

Nic (Not the one from Historicon '01)

There are at least four general works of Australian military history that cover the frontier: the title referred to by Nic, by Chris Coulthard-Clarke; 'The Oxford Companion to Australian Military History'; 'A Military History of Australia', by Jeffrey Grey; and one other whose title and author escape me, but which is very much along the same lines as the Grey book and often turns up in local libraries.

A couple of popular history titles left off the above list include: 'Too Many Spears', by Peter Pinney and Estelle Runcie, about the settlement of Somerset at the tip of the Cape York peninsula; 'The Rifle and the Spear', by Clem Lack and Harry Stafford.

Recent 'serious' history titles also worthy of attention include 'Goodbye Bussamarai; The Mandandanji Land War, South-East Queensland, 1842 – 1852'. On events in Victoria there are 'Black Land, White Land', by Michael Cannon; 'Caledonia Australis', by Don Watson; 'A Distant Field of Murder', by Jan Critchett; 'Good men and True', by Marie Fels, on the Port Phillip District Native Mounted police.

On South Australia you might try "Resistance and Retaliation', and 'Colonial Blue', a history of the SA Police Force. Both of these cover conflict in SA itself and the series of encounters involving overlanders near the Rufus River, just over the border with NSW.

On Queensland 'Race Relations in Colonial Queensland', by various authors, 'Early Days in North Queensland', by Edward Palmer, 'Taming the North', by the aviation pioneer Hudson Fysh, 'Northmost Australia', by the explorer Robert Logan-Jack, and the diary of the Jardine Brothers' expedition to Somerset (title uncertain) are also useful.

To be honest, if anyone is seriously interested in frontier conflict I would recommend simply perusing the Australian history section of your local library. You will find many of the books referred to here and others that refer to or cite instances of frontier conflict, and a little exploration of the countless works of detailed local history will often turn up unsuspected allusions to or descriptions of the same.

To radmonkey66, it's simply not possible to gain an understanding of the frontier by reading one book. You need to keep in mind the perspective of the author, his/her biases, his/her historiographical training, the social and historical context in which the work was produced etc. For example, 'Blood on the Wattle' was written by a popular writer, not a historian, and one who was attempting to promote the idea of Aborigines as purely victims. This is not to deny that there were countless murders and massacres of Aboriginal people on the frontier, because there certainly were, but the picture is more complex; it includes considerable armed resistance as well.

The sniggering, sarcastic dismissal of frontier conflict and Aboriginal reistance by some Australian gamers has its basis in a profound ignorance of historical events and an underlying racism that, as Nic points out, sadly still permeates this society at a very deep level. This phenomenon perhaps explains the existential crisis mere mention of the subject of frontier conflict appears to generate in some individuals of a certain generation who would prefer to pretend the entire subject away on behalf of all of us.

Neither of you have answered my questions from the previous time this rubbish came up.

Have you ever been outside the city limits?
Have you ever been to the Outback. (No not your back yard…I mean the REAL Outback)
Have you ever associated with Aboriginies in the bush?
Do you have any Aboriginal friends or relatives?

I can answer YES to all those.

The only profound ignorance and underlying racism is in trying to turn our poor, mostly passive, Aboriginies into some sort of wild west show for your amusement.

Perhaps I might also ask….

Do you have any plans to go back to England? (please?)

As for the statement
"At this point I have no plans to publish – let alone sell – my Australian frontier game, 'Boomerang'"

that is because you know it has already been rejected by the main stream companies as you well know. Goodness knows I've had to fend of some Huh? questions from potential publishers.

The last time 'Boomerang' appeared at a public wargame I attended you were too lacking in moral fibre to even turn up 'Henry Martini' and at the last minute left it to a boy to run.

Your yellow streak must glow in the dark.

And if any manufacturer was stupid enough to manufacture figures for you to use, would they not then be subjected to your eternal, on and on critiques of the quality, the metal, the flash, the animation, etc etc etc adnauseum????

Which is probably cause for another good question.

"Is there a miniatures company on this planet who's figures ever matched your expectations and price?"

I cannot see why any manufacturer who has ever heard of you….and there cannot be many who have not…to their eternal frustration….would even consider casting figures for you to then nit pick to bits. What would be the point. They could shrink real Aboriginies and you'd still find fault.

This will probably cost me the Dawghouse…but…you're a twit of the first order. A Knights Cross with oak leaves Diamonds and crossed swords level Twit.

Geez guys,

Well, I guess we shouldn't even suggest other things like playing "Cowboys and Indians", or urging manufacturers to make figures and rules for them then! :)

CC

In the immortal words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?" :)

CC

We make cowboys and Indins (and Aborigines)

Geoff

"In the immortal words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?" :)

Goodness knows I've tried with Henry Martini. Its a waste of time.

That 27 year old "boy" who was running the 'Boomrang' game holds a Degree in Archaeology, an Honours Degree in Classical Studies, has published an Osprey 'Elite' book, and is Currently completing a Doctorate in Historical Archaeology, investigating Australian frontier conflict, with all research coming from THE ORIGINAL documents, written by the people who were actually there when the stuff was happening.

You knew the Aborigines 100 years too late I'm afraid.

Wonderful lot of 'book learning'.
How about field experience in the deep Outback?

Non-Australian readers of this forum, and many locals, must be very bemused by the vehemence of the response by one particular individual to any attempts to raise this topic here and discuss it in a rational and reasoned manner, and the violently personal nature of the attacks launched in an attempt to obfuscate and smokescreen discussion of the core issues. I have to admit myself to being personally baffled, other than referring to my speculations in the above post. Suffice to say, I leave it to the psychologists amongst you to puzzle over. Those of you who have observed this forum for some time can judge for yourselves that individual's claim to have tried to 'get along'.

One major admission from the reading list is that notorious radical revisionist operation Osprey Publications. Men-at- Arms 224, 'Queen Victoria's Enemies: Asia, Australasia, and the Americas', by no less a luminary than he who has made a career out of writng books on the Zulu War, Ian Knight, has a section on the frontier, and a colour plate of an Aboriginal warrior.

Sorry – that should of course be 'One major omission…'.

" . . . very bemused by the vehemence of the response by one particular individual to any attempts to raise this topic here and discuss it in a rational and reasoned manner"

Well said, Henry.

And I was hoping this would simply result in additional interest in figures. Sometimes I wonder if I should even waste my time. :)

CC

Henri Martini, at the risk of being quite late, I did not mean to imply that I was an 'expert' on the subject of Aboriginies. My wife is Australian and has a huge collection of books on Aborigines [the biggest one in Poland – 500 volumes] and the only book dealing with anything military in the collection is 'Blood on the Wattle'.

My only comment was basically astonishment that Nic Robeson decided to do Aborigines, especially after my wife and he discussed [jokingly] Aborigine figures at Historicon in '01.

I agree that one book does not an expert make, nor was it my intention to create such an impression.

Radmonkey66 – No criticism of you was intended. My point was simply that, as with any contentious historical subject, one should read as widely as possible before making definitive judgements about it.

In the interests of total clarity, I would just like to qualify my statement above re the publication of 'Boomerang' by explaining that there are no plans to publish at the moment. The reason is quite simply that further play testing and development is required. If I do get around to publishing, it will be in a form that makes the game easily accessible to whoever is interested; probably free on the net. I am under no illusions that this is the 'next big thing'. As should be obvious to anyone this subject presented in isolation, and using 15mm figures, will only ever attract a very small following, so suggestions that Nic and I might be pursuing it with dollar signs flashing in our eyes are plainly ludicrous.

However, there are perhaps greater possibilities in a broad approach that allows gamers to play skirmish games and campaigns set in an Australian context, using any of the belligerent factions that might have occurred historically, in the same way that LOTOW does for the American West. It is apparent form this forum that most contributors favour 28mm figures, so an Australian variant of LOTOW might have broader appeal. I have already done some work on my own version that allows players to field bushrangers, police of various flavours, soldiers, rebels, settlers, and Chinese tongs, as well as Aborigines. I have tried to change as little as is absolutely necessary to reflect the differences between the US and Australian frontiers. Once again, this will be no money-spinner. It has been suggested to me that GW might like to publish it as a supplement to LOTOW, but they have declared that they have finished with publishing support material for this game. Furthermore, there are no 28mm figures in production, and it is GW's policy to illustrate supplements with photos of miniatures. So, the material will probably end up appearing in a magazine. Hopefully this will spark some interest from figure manufacturers, but if not, there is always the conversion option. For example, I have produced quite convincing 1860s Native Mounted Police from Old Glory confederate cavalry with DB shotguns. For Aborigines, Old Glory's Gallic Gesaeti are a good starting point. Even the shield's supplied can be shaped into good facsimiles of the real thing. I favour OG for two reasons:

1. They use a relatively soft metal metal so carving and filing are not too difficult.

2. I don't like hacking up expensive figures.

Different migration models proposed.

link

If I get those Australians, they may end up fighting some South Americans.

CC

WOW!

Allow me to throw in my 2 cents.

I have been all over the country including the deep outback.

I have an aborignal 'family' (ie the entire tribe) in cape york due to my father being adopted into the tribe when he used to fly geo surveys in that area.

I myself have lived with aborignal families for a total of 8 years all up.

I am aware there was resistance, some of it very sucessful.

All that being said I would be loathe to game gubba vs koorie/murry etc games due to the huge amount of really nasty perpertrated upon Aborignal tribes by old whitey.

I would on the other hand happily paint up Aborignal figures for display for my aborignal friends.

Tribe vs tribe stuff would be fine but there is little scope for good gaming as I have repeatedly told CC. (dredge through the old posts on this for the reasons why.)

The Euro-Americans have perpetrated some really nasty bleep on the indigenous people too, but people still game their frontier conflict and no one batts an eyelid

Actually about an hour ago I had a highly enjoyable Aboriginal raid on a homestead game set in Queensland in the 1870's-80s.

I love gaming the period. so much VARIETY of terrains, civilian types, military, police, different scenarios (we currently have scenarios for 'meeting encounters', 'challenges', 'homestead raid', 'sheep/cattle raid', 'sheep/cattle retrieval', 'punitive/revenge raid'all of which are actually realistically balanced in game terms.

I'd love to have a few games of 'Boomerang' with you Scurvellian, I reckon you'd really like it, you can be the Aboriginal side if you want too, since you have a 'family' connection with them :)

I myself am about to finish three and a half years of archival research into Australian frontier conflict, just finishing my PhD in historical archaeology, investigating examples of civilian use of defensive architecture on the SA & NT frontiers. Anyone who downplays the formidability of Aboriginal resistance and their will to fight for their country is doing the memory of all those brave Aboriginal men women and children who died during those days a great disservice.

No thanks. I find the entire concept distasteful.

ok. I hope you don't do any other colonial period gaming then, you wouldn't want to be accused of having double standards. Colonialism is inherrently evil, no matter where or when it happens. Then again, so is war, so let's all just melt down our figures and re-cast them into a giant peace statue.

Why dont you go to an Aborignal community and show them your game. Im sure they would love to fight against the white man. I just suspect it won't be on a table top.

Let's put this whole 48-post thread into perspective. This topic started with gamers discussing miniatures and possible scenarios. Everything was progressing peaceably until SOMEONE went and launched a personal attack on some of the members on the 27th March. These boards are for discussing gaming, NOT people's personal ideological views or issues with individuals. If someone is not interested with, or even strongly disagrees with what individuals choose to game, then it is none of their business and they should just ignore the discussion.

I think the moderator(s) should have stepped in a long time ago and made this clear.

I will bloody well game whatever period I want. And I will discuss my gaming here too if I want. That's what these forums are for.

Thankyou,

Nic

Let's be honest: war and armed conflict anywhere, anytime, are inherently distasteful to feeling beings with even an ounce of compassion and sensitivity to the suffering of other beings. One either accepts or rejects the notion that two or more – almost invariably – men standing around a table, pushing around little pieces of painted metal or plastic, rolling dice, and engaging in exchanges of dubious humour has nothing to do with war and armed conflict and their attendent human and animal death, trauma, pain, terror, brutality, and degradation. If the latter is your position, then no miniature representation of martial activity can be countenanced. Realistically, such a prohibition should extend to Chess, which is after all just another politico-military game – it's simply a little more stylised than our regular gaming fare.

I can though perhaps appreciate that Scurvy's personal connection with the conquered and still suffering native people of Australia heightens his sensitivity to their lot, even if I find his ethical position om wargaming puzzling.

I know someone of Aboriginal descent who plays computer wargames and has expressed an interest in participating in our games of 'Boomerang'. He light-heartedly remarked something to the effect of 'guess which side I'll be playing'.