"First Americans Were Australians?" Topic

How likely is this? Can the scientific establishment even consider and accept such a possibility?

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Has there been a serious shift in thinking when it comes to a multiple migration theory, or are these simply the thoughts and theories of fringe researchers?

CC

Very interesting. I recall reading about that site in NE Brazil quite some time ago and the controversy it was causing back then when original estimates for dating the site were around 25,000 years ago.

Now, wouldn't it make for some cool "fantasy-like" scenarios or campaign background? Throw in the Chinese explorers, neolithic "Vikings" and heck why not even some French (i.e., original "Clovis" people by one theory), and not to forget some Phoenicians.

I have heard of that a long time ago somewhere already, so I don't think this is a "new" theory.

Personally, I always doubted the Asians crossing the land bridge all the way up north would travel that far south (across two continents!).

I mean why would they?

I guess we need these Aboriginal miniatures then:

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If, by some chance, the Australians brought with them "dingoes", I wonder if it would show up on the DNA of any indigenous dogs in South America (are/were there any such canines)?

CC

Also add in Japan's red-haired natives, whose name escapes me at the moment.

People from the Easter island, etc…

Trapondur, do you mean the Ainu (Emishi?), who have many physical and artistic traits similar to those of the natives in the Pacific Northwest?

CC

Even today there are regions in central & southern America, where landslides wipe out and cover under meters of mud whole villages.

It is a fact, that we have only rudimetary knowledge of things we found so far.

There are countless things we haven't found yet, and probably never will.

Same with dinos, really.
What we know about them is based on usually just a dozend or two (!!!) individual fragments of individual specimens.
Some dino species jave only made it onto the charts because of not even a dozend specimens found!

That means you had a population of one particular species of probably a few ten thousand (!) individuals, and all we found are bits and pieces of three or four (and I don't mean thre or four thousand, I mean thre or four period) of them.

If cultures of humans were vagrant, and not prone to built huge geometric objects of rock, such as the pyramids, there is practically zero chance to ever find them again.

The link you posted recently to the large "urbanized" parts in the Amazon region plays into that.

Yes, I think Ainu is their name.

This whole issue is really why I liked Däniken's books so much, because I think he asked interesting questions, just alluded the wrong stupid answers (aliens, when in fact it was simply "lost/sunken" human civilizations).

This is interesting:

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I wonder if this possibility is already taught to school kids anywhere in the world?

CC

Thor Heyerdahl was one who also was not affraid of asking questions, even if some of his answers were way off the mark:

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greatdreams.com/thor.htm

Many have considered him and others as part of a fringe element.

Is that what is also happening with the multiple migration theory?

CC

Yeap my son did a report on these in third grade after his history (social studies) book asked who were the first to settle in America. The teacher was not amused.
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James Mattes

LOL. Sounds like what happened when I told my teacher (many years ago, mind you) that the Vikings had reached North America.

CC

It is the fool who shows own thought and opinion. It's the wise who respects the master's authority. For only so will the pupil rise to be the master. Once a master, his opinion will count.

No dingoes I'm afraid CC, its likely thy one came to Australia in the last few thousand years with Indonesian traders.

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Could be. Analysis of DNA and genetic markers is certainly answering some questions like these. For more information about the National Geographic/IBM Genographic Project: link

More likely the non-asiatic immigrants just shared the same ancestral population base somewhere in India – IIRC the 'closest' remanent populations outside Australia are in Ceylon & the Anderman Islands

Too bad about the late arrival of dingoes to Australia. It would have been interesting to see if there was a genetic connection.

I wonder if the Carolina Dog is a descentant of Asian species that came over the Bering Straight or if they are more closely related to others that could have only come via ocean migrations? Couldn't that be determined by DNA studies?

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They sure look "Dingo-ish". And a detailed study of their connection to Old World dogs (direct or indirect) could go a long way to bring light on the possibility of multiple migrations.

CC

On canine DNA:

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South American dogs:

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_Dog

I guess the Dingo is not exclusive to Australia (meaning, its Asian ancestors are still alive and kicking):

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CC

Everytime we think we have it figured out, something like this comes along and gets everyone all squirrily.

Life was so much simpler when the world was flat.

LOL.

Damn that science!

CC

"Everytime we think we have it figured out, something like this comes along and gets everyone all squirrily."

Ain't it the truth? But that's one of the things that makes modern life so dang cool.

The good news is, in just about every field, science keeps marching toward better and more precise understandings of this sort of thing. For example, just in this thread, you can see the advance from skull analysis, which is open to individual interpretation, to DNA and genetic marker analysis, which is much more precise and much less open to interpretation.

I love it!

This is truly fascinating:

"Until now, native Americans were believed to have descended from Asian ancestors who arrived over a land bridge between Siberia and Alaska and then migrated across the whole of north and south America. The land bridge was formed 11,000 years ago during the ice age, when sea level dropped.
However, the new evidence shows that these people did not arrive in an empty wilderness. Stone tools and charcoal from the site in Brazil show evidence of human habitation as long ago as 50,000 years …
Here, Grahame Walsh, an expert on Australian rock art, found the oldest painting of a boat anywhere in the world. The style of the art means it is at least 17,000 years old, but it could be up to 50,000 years old.
And the crucial detail is the high prow of the boat. This would have been unnecessary for boats used in calm, inland waters. The design suggests it was used on the open ocean . . .
Combined with rock art evidence of increasing violence at this time, it appears that the mongoloid people from the north invaded and wiped out the original Americans . . .
The pre-European Fuegeans, who lived stone age-style lives until this century, show hybrid skull features which could have resulted from intermarrying between mongoloid and negroid peoples. Their rituals and traditions also bear some resemblance to the ancient rock art in Brazil."
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Interesting cave art work at the site:
athenapub.com/10pfurad.htm
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CC

Question about the current status of Eureka's 28mm Aboriginals:

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CC

Different migration models proposed.

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CC

Hi

Err….No.

These theorys have been floating around for a long time and all revolve around belief rather than science.

This is an "occam's" thing, really. The "before clovis" has a real problem. It is simply the wealth of evidence. Prior to Clovis, you have a few sketchy finds that consist of fire burns that might be natural, and chipped rock that might be natural. Co-incident with clovis you have unmistakable sign. remains of dwellings, absolute tools on recognized schools of work, and…….bodies.

So, we have man in america for 40,000,000 years and he leaves a few chancy questionable bits, and clovis leaves us with evidence "in spades" everywhere.

As for "DNA".. First, with a migration, the invaders Never wipe everyone out. At a minimum, they "kill their enemies and take their women". So, MtDNA shows 4 disctint major migrations to the americas, none of them pre-clovis.

Heyerdhal was a romantic seeing what he wanted, and vonDanikan proposed more BS invention than can be counted. He is as bad as the "intelligent design" mystics.

Rocky, humble as always with the opinions!