"Face masks: what the data say" Topic

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Face masks are the ubiquitous symbol of a pandemic that has sickened 35 million people and killed more than 1 million. In hospitals and other health-care facilities, the use of medical-grade masks clearly cuts down transmission of the SARS-CoV-2 virus. But for the variety of masks in use by the public, the data are messy, disparate and often hastily assembled. Add to that a divisive political discourse that included a US president disparaging their use, just days before being diagnosed with COVID-19 himself. "People looking at the evidence are understanding it differently," says Baruch Fischhoff, a psychologist at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, who specializes in public policy. "It's legitimately confusing."

To be clear, the science supports using masks, with recent studies suggesting that they could save lives in different ways: research shows that they cut down the chances of both transmitting and catching the coronavirus, and some studies hint that masks might reduce the severity of infection if people do contract the disease.

But being more definitive about how well they work or when to use them gets complicated. There are many types of mask, worn in a variety of environments. There are questions about people's willingness to wear them, or wear them properly. Even the question of what kinds of study would provide definitive proof that they work is hard to answer.

"How good does the evidence need to be?" asks Fischhoff. "It's a vital question."

Face masks work (to some extent) when worn properly. In my experience that is less than 50%. And many have "masks" that are too thin to do any good. I wear one only when I am shopping or to enter a restaurant & at Church otherwise no.

Masks might work, when used properly but the vast majority of masks Or gaitors I see worn are useless. Like this picture.

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So governors have usurped their authority for something that does not work.

What's the saying? People who give up essential liberty for safety deserve neither.

Oh and I won't even mention taking the mask off to open the meat and produce bags at the store.

Masks are a pain in the butt.
They make my glasses fog up.
They make the fit of my glasses too tight and uncomfortable.
If I sneeze inside it, it stinks.
My nose itches.
If I burp I smell my morning coffee.

BUT….
I'm not a snowflake. I'm a REAL MAN. I'm tough. I can take it.
I wonder how much Londoners bitched and whined during The Blitz. Americans are spoiled. Always whining about their "rats".
If you can see totalitarian advances in requiring a minimal safety precaution, you need to stop listening to the usual suspects.

One distinct advantage. If I see a really hot girl, I can and she won't see it and I don't get my face slapped.

By the way, I'm getting tired of Bitter Clingers who deliberately do not wear a mask, and glare at me, practically demanding that I make an issue out of it.
They're as annoying as the gangs of Open Carry dudes who mob restaurants, looking for someone to make an issue out of it.

By the way, it's a full face mask. Not a chin strap.

Several weeks ago The Today Show did a segment on masks. They did a "blow out a candle" test on a variety of masks, from the N95 down to the cloth gaiter type. The result was that the thinner the mask, the more air and "germs" get through it.

Jim

On a recent visit to Duke Hospital, wife and I were told
to discard the N95 masks we were wearing and to use
masks Duke provided.

The masks provided by Duke came from a box of dozens,
were cloth and the box was printed 'For non-medical
use' along with other precautions (not to use in
toxic environments; not for use by firefighters; etc).

When asked why we were given masks inferior to the masks
we were wearing, the Duke Health employee at the desk
shrugged and asked us to 'move along, please, others are
waiting.'

This is the disclaimer from a Walmart email I got:

This is a non-medical-grade cloth face mask and is not intended as a replacement for medical-grade personal protective equipment, use in a medical setting, or replacement for other recommended measures to stop the community spread of COVID-19. This product makes no claims of antimicrobial protection, antiviral protection, particulate filtration or infection prevention or reduction. This is not an FDA-approved product. This product is authorized only for the duration of the declaration that circumstances exist justifying the authorization of the emergency use of medical devices, including alternative products used as medical devices, during the COVID-19 outbreak.

No protection or FDA approval? Why are they selling (and why are we wearing) useless masks?

Unfortunately what is happening with masks is not about science but about compliance. It's become political. Notice that when the cameras are off, the masks come off; especially among politicians and journalists when they don't realize they are still being filmed. The hypocrisy is hilarious.

Ed, my best guess is that it has to do with the lawyers. Since there's a proliferation of fake n95 masks, and the hospital can be held liable for letting in someone with insufficient protection, having everybody wear their ppe saves them from that hassle.

I've had a similar conversation with a college roommate who's now a teacher. Even though he has n95s, he has to wear the school supplied ppe even though it's inferior to his stuff due to the school board's fear of liability.

Mr Elmo, cloth masks are now being asked to do something that they haven't beed FDA certified to do (a process that can take years), however the overwhelming empirical evidence is that it worked at the population scale, but FDA approval is for the individual. So you get that legalease to stop lawsuits 2-3 years down the line.

Martin, this has already been discussed.

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Family took me out for a nice lunch at a local buffet today.

Unfortunately, the restaurant staff were not monitoring compliance, and several people were not wearing their masks properly while using the buffet (masks pulled all the way down). One woman's cell phone conversation was apparently more important than wearing a mask while simultaneously getting food.

"what the data say"

As always, with any situation that has been politized you have your choice of competing data. All of which is designed to get you to react the way the authors want you to react.

So, wear a mask or don't wear a mask, I don't really care. Just stop trying to shove your agenda down everyone's throat.

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It's a communicable disease for frack's sake. There's no "rugged individualism" in a pandemic, since human interactions lead to more transmission, and those people will spread the virus to others, and then they spread it….

There's no "rugged individualism" in a pandemic, since human interactions lead to more transmission, and those people will spread the virus to others, and then they spread it….

By that logic, we should be lockdown'd forever.

By that logic, we should be lockdown'd forever.

No, just until you lower the rate of transmission below community spread, and then it can be curtailed by a strong testing regime, contact tracing and individual quarantine for those that test positive and have had contact with those infected. After that, it's going to be periodic lockdowns to pump the breaks when community spread flairs back up. Furthermore, masking mandates have been show at the macro level that this is the most cost-effective way of lowering the transmission rate of COVID-19, and offers a intermediate pathway when tied with suspension of high risk activities between let'er rip/borderlines eugenics program and full lock down.

"By that logic, we should be lockdown'd forever."

You do lockdown properly, the disease burns out, and you get back to a normal life. As has been demonstrated in most Australian states and New Zealand.

This is what ends up happening:

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Is anyone conflating the term lockdown with having to wear a mask indoors?

If so, does a business with a "No shoes, No shirt, No service" sign constitute having a lock down?

"Masks are irrelevant for stopping a virus. Viruses are 1000x smaller than a hair, and 50x smaller than a bacteria.

It's like saying a chain-link fence can stop a mosquito."

I can see this causing …

"Masks are irrelevant for stopping a virus. Viruses are 1000x smaller than a hair, and 50x smaller than a bacteria.

It's like saying a chain-link fence can stop a mosquito."

That would be true…. if the virus particles were free floating rather than being suspended in water. It's more like chain-link fences stooping water balloons…

And what happens to said water as it hits the fence, Martin?

Obviously it is stopped by said fence … Not.

Then wear said fence on your face all day breathing through it.

The role in non-n95 facemasks is to protect others from your virus laden water droplets and their mask protects you. Remember the meme about the urineist and the effects of pants?

How hard is it to wear a darn mask to protect others?

Does wearing a mask indoors constitute a lockdown?

If wearing a mask is some kind of infringement on the rights of our more delicate sensitive citizens, the no shoes, no shirt, no service signs should have caused riots decades ago.

Yeah, you never did answer my question about that.

If masks aren't effective in preventing the transmission of disease then why have doctors and nurses been wearing them in hospitals for over a hundred years?

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If masks are so effective, then why aren't masks worn every flu season? Think of the thousands of lives which could be saved every year from the flu if mask use was mandatory.

The answer is the same reason we don't outlaw cars even though over 30,000 people are killed in car accidents every year. As a society we have made a choice between risks and freedom, and we choose freedom I hope.

If masks are so effective, then why aren't masks worn every flu season? Think of the thousands of lives which could be saved every year from the flu if mask use was mandatory.

The Asian rim countries got hit hard by the first SARS 17 years ago and it became a cultural norm.

It was also a debate de regeur for combating the 1918 flu. link

we choose freedom I hope.

So. the no shoes, no shirt, no service signs that are ubiquitous everywhere are an assault on freedom?

same reason we don't outlaw cars even though over 30,000 people are killed in car accidents every year

And yet we have mandatory seat belts laws, require manufacturers to install airbags and have a myriad of laws around speeding, DUI, reckless driving etc.?

McKinstry,

Thank you for posting thoughtful and intelligent responses here. Its a real pleasure reading your reasonable posts.

+1 McKinstry

For a Pandemic, and Pa is up there I am surviving without a mask ( wear my face shield only) for months. Still know no one who has had yet, family or co-workers.

My brother-in-laws wife knows people who "tested positive ".

However, neither of them were ever tested. They just received letters in the mail stating they had tested positive…

My wife's cousins uncles sister knew a guy who knew another guy who said his second cousin on his sisters side had tested positive but really only had hoof and mouth.

Anecdotal evidence isn't.

Does anyone have any data on how many people caught the virus and had been wearing a mask?

There are many counties throughout the US that have had < 100 cases and almost no death. They are isolated counties in N. Dakota, S. Dakota, Montana and Nevada and elsewhere. These might be comparable to isolated areas in Australia and New Zealand which also have tha advantage of being isolated by the ocean.

A densley populated are like New England and major metropolitan areas is not the same as spread out and semi-isolated areas. There is almost no way Europe and the US could have isolated themselves. By the time you determine it's a pandemic situation it's too late and when you only have a few cases reported there is no alarm.

Politicians don't want to admit problems or take responsibility for them. It also appears there are no experts on the Covad 19 virus. How can you have an expert on something they've never seen beforre?

There also seems to be a high % of deaths in Mississippi and southern Lousiana which is the obseity capital of the US. Also a high % in Florida with a high % of old people.

What the politicians, healthcare officials at all levels and the "experts" failed to do at the start was to protect and isolate the people most suspectable. Based on past flu pandemics that wold be old people with existing compromised immunity systems.

When the main stream media states the number of new cases it would also be informative to know how many were tested and how many were hospitalized out of that number.

Wolfhag

informative to know how many were tested and how many were hospitalized out of that number.

The infection rate which is the number of actual cases compared to those tested over a specific period is available by state for a set time. Hospitalizations and deaths are a lagging number as most hospitalizations would occur 4-9 days after initial infection.

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At the moment, some of the worst rates are in rural areas such as North Dakota.

had been wearing a mask?

I doubt anyone would track that since the purpose of the mask is to protect others, not the wearer. A more valid statistic, but it would be only an approximation, would be percentage of the population wearing masks regularly and correctly compared to the infection rate.

Interesting statistic developing. If you compare the infections and death rates for the first 8 months of the 1918 Spanish Influenza adjusting for greater populations now, the US infections and deaths rates are not dissimilar.

I heard that cases will likely increase with the coming cold season due to people being inside more. France has seen a rise in cases recently and has put the country on lockdown again. So I guess more people will be inside…

Also read that more people died of bacterial pneumonia during the Spanish Flu than from the Spanish Flu. The got bacterial pneumonia from wearing masks. Dr. Fauci wrote a paper on it.

The primary killer during the Spanish Flu was it apparently triggered a virulent cytokine storm in which the bodies own immune system becomes overstimulated. This is present in some of the Covid-19 patients and does represent circumstances in which steroids can be effective. Unlike 1918 when the prime victims were young and healthy otherwise with immune systems primed to turn on them, Covid exhibits a huge range of varied symptoms even among set age groups. With new studies showing any immunity achieved by having it fading over time, I suspect this will be with us for a long time. I also note that the first round of vaccines seem focused on minimizing symptoms, not preventing actually getting it.

Cases, hospitalizations and deaths will keep rising for a while. A certain amount of Covid fatigue has set in, particularly among the 18-49 set, and the standard mask, distance, hand washing activities are getting lax which coupled with more time indoors, holiday gatherings and the regular flu season, will result in rising numbers almost everywhere except societies that will tolerate near draconian shut downs which is not most of the West.

Wolfhag, there was mention of that from the WH Covid Advisory team:

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"Also read that more people died of bacterial pneumonia during the Spanish Flu than from the Spanish Flu. The got bacterial pneumonia from wearing masks. Dr. Fauci wrote a paper on it."

Can you please give us the source for this? Where did you get this?

Possibly from this:

"The weight of evidence we examined from both historical and modern analyses of the 1918 influenza pandemic favors a scenario in which viral damage followed by bacterial pneumonia led to the vast majority of deaths," says co-author NIAID Director Anthony S. Fauci, M.D.

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The pneumonia was caused when bacteria that normally inhabit the nose and throat invaded the lungs along a pathway created when the virus destroyed the cells that line the bronchial tubes and lungs.

Nothing to do with masks, paper or otherwise. The bacteria were already physically present. Standard flora.

There is another danger to wearing these masks on a daily basis, especially if worn for several hours. When a person is infected with a respiratory virus, they will expel some of the virus with each breath. If they are wearing a mask, especially an N95 mask or other tightly fitting mask, they will be constantly rebreathing the viruses, raising the concentration of the virus in the lungs and the nasal passages. We know that people who have the worst reactions to the coronavirus have the highest concentrations of the virus early on. And this leads to the deadly cytokine storm in a selected number.

It gets even more frightening. Newer evidence suggests that in some cases the virus can enter the brain. In most instances it enters the brain by way of the olfactory nerves (smell nerves), which connect directly with the area of the brain dealing with recent memory and memory consolidation. By wearing a mask, the exhaled viruses will not be able to escape and will concentrate in the nasal passages, enter the olfactory nerves and travel into the brain.

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While those who work in health care settings are advised to wear the N95 face mask, there is no such advisory for the general public. The N95 face mask is only recommended for health professionals dealing with patients who may be infected with the coronavirus.

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I'm not sure why you keep focusing on N95 masks?

I have not seen many wearing them.

I'm not sure why you keep focusing on N95 masks?

Did you actually read what you posted above? As in..

If they are wearing a mask, especially an N95 mask or other tightly fitting mask,

Most of everything you have posted claiming alleged injury from mask wearing is related solely to N-95's and similar. Stop posting N-95 related issues in the guise of regular mask wearing and I will stop focusing on the fact that posts claiming harm from mask wearing related to N-95's and similar are simply disingenuous.