"who has info of the russian early cavalry" Topic

just red?

just line facings

Could you be a touch more specific? What type of cavalry?

What year?
link

This does start 1802, Russians don't start the Napoleonic campaigns before that.

dragoons, cuirassier you pick,

Kuhttps://zaotlichiye.000webhostapp.com/allfacings.html
n je iets specifieker zijn? Wat voor cavalerie? NO INFANTRY!

>>just line facings

All very common knowledge in Ospreys for a start.
Hourtoulle is a guide similar.
Really all resources you know about already.
d

Joe cavalry is down the page

dear 14bore lost my glasses

found them again ON MY BATTLE FIELD BRSIDE THE TREE LINES LOOKING TWICE IS HALF OF MY PROBLEMS

If you dip into the pre-empire / revolutionary era an important tip for Russian Dragoons is that their coat turn-backs are yellow-beige. Not red as many assume and not the facing colour of the regiment.

Thought I'd throw that nugget in there. :)

best,
B.

please the of 1805 and colors

found

this?

link

Nice link Joe

Nothing new about the site surely- also that its defunct (unused any more) and likely to disappear one day completely, like most amateur sites.

However, I caution using Courcelle- many of his later French and now I see Russian depictions contain fantasy elements.

AFAIK no RUSSIAN infantry line regiments wore any decorative lace on the collar or cuffs- that was a Guard thing. Early period anyway, perhaps by late campaigns it changed, but thats outside my area anyway.
d

just trying to get some colors together names +_1805

"Russian infantry line regiments wore any decorative lace on the collar or cuffs"
Always there are exceptions. For the years 1797 through 1815 ….

Paul's reign
All Army grenadier and muskteer regiments had buttonhole tapes on the cuffs or sleeves. Typically, but not always, these matched the regiment's "metal color". Some units additionally had decorative stitching on the tapes and/or small tassels hanging from them.

Life-grenadier [Лейб-Гренадерский] regiment
Lower ranks per the order of 18 Sep 1802 had white buttonhole loops on the collar and cuffs. As the Emperor was the "shef" of the regiment, the order of 6 Jul 1801 provided gold metallic buttonhole loops on collar and cuffs for officers. From the Landeck Manuscript in 1813 (the aiguillette is worn as the officer is an adjutant):

The Emperor's relatives
In addition to the Life-grenadiers, the order of 6 Jul 1801 provided gold metallic buttonhole loops on collar and cuffs for the officers of those regiments with an honorary colonel (шеф) who was a "prince of the blood".
For the Army infantry :
--- Astrakhan grenadiers – shef Friedrich Ludwig Herzog zu Mecklenburg, the Emperor's brother-in-law : 6 Jul 1801 to 13 Sep 1814
--- Taurida [Таврический] grenadiers – shef Eugen Friedrich Prinz von Württemberg, the Emperor's 1st cousin : 6 Jul 1801 to 13 Sep 1814 (depicted in the Landeck Manuscript)
--- Moscow grenadiers – shef Karl August Herzog zu Mecklenburg, the Emperor's brother-in-law : 6 Jul 1801 to 18 May 1814
--- Little Russia [Малороссийский] grenadiers – shef Karl Ludwig Großherzog von Baden, the Emperor's brother-in-law : 28 Jul 1801 to 20 Jan 1807
--- Kiev grenadiers – shef Karl Friedrich Großherzog von Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach, the Emperor's brother-in-law : 18 Aug 1803 to 10 May 1813
--- 1st jägers : shef Paul Friedrich Erbprinz von Oldenburg, the Emperor's 1st cousin : 3 Aug 1811 to 13 Sep 1814

joe-
REvisting web-sites, obviously, and this 'guide' has the basics for many units- I'd advise caution on the colours accuracy or 'shade' but overall looks good and is convenient where the lists are complete.
Copies of illustrations dont enlarge, so not a lot f use excet the 'form' of uniform.

Hussars for 1805 in detail anyway…

link

cheers

wow shat1984 this want can't thank you enough

I think this may be of some real help.

Army Cavalry, Artillery, Engineers, and Garrisons, 1796-1801
link

Guards Infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery; Military Educational Institutions, Irregular and National Troops, Military Administration, Provincial Companies, Retired Personnel, and Orderlies 1796-1801 link

Regards Scott

I cannot find the thread that discussed the creation and arming of Uhlan Tsarevich Konstantine (originally Odessa Hussars).

But on following the 'Michail Illarionovich Kutuzov' trail, I see this thumbnail pic. No reference or credit, yes it's modern I'd say- the French are depicted very well.
NOTE the 'uhlans' have no lances, only sabres.

Kutuzov

Ok tmp wont save the img so I'll have to cross-post later.

= =

So at least someone, I'm assuming in Russia, follow the line that this regiment was not issued lances UNTIL 1806 as previously cited.
And Boki has created same, sabres not lances I think.

cheers dave
≠

Yes, and from the same image too, mostly.

16 May 1803 : formation of the Odessa Husar regiment of 2 five-squadron battalions, at one each at Makhnivka & Skvyra south-east of Kiev, in the Ukraine inspectorate – formed with 2 squadrons from each of the Sumy, Izyum, Mariupol and Aleksandriya Hussar regiments plus recruits (PSZRI No. 20764)

11 September 1803 : the Odessa Hussar regiment re-named His Imperial Highness the Tsesarevich Constantine Pavlovich's Lancer regiment

6 September 1803 : the Establishment published for the Tsesarevich's lancers has no lances – 16 troopers in each squadron are armed with rifles instead of carbines

17 December 1803 : two Replacement half-squardrons are formed, one at each caserne location

2 May 1806 : the carbines of the Tsesarevich's lancers are to be exchanged for lances

Discussion of the Uhlans is at TMP link and TMP link

Brillaint mate!
Bloody search functions just aren't finding, b** I know why but they never came up. I knew we'd covered this but the crossover of topics/spurious titles remains a quagmire… your notes I captured without a url, which is a habit I've since corrected.

As noted, the 'horsemen' [not called lancers] wore yellow mixed scarlet epaulette fringes per the illustration.

And a slight rebuttal of the 'lack of info kind' of Nafziger stating they still wore hussar uniforms (I believe in the absence of proof otherwise, he guessed).

And since we've seen quoted 'lance wounds' among the French cavalry perhaps another deep-dive analysis of who and where and when such were recorded. There were cossacks about in nearly every Division that would have joined any opportunity charge(*) by friends.

This web site article appears to have clearly expunged that- a dandy Austrian (not Polish) in uhlan uniform prancing around St.P got the Grand Duke all excited, what with Alexanders 'process improvements' to modernise(?) the army in his honeymoon period of Emperorship.
cheers d
-
(*)-Notes for rules/ rule makers- any cossacks get free movement once they spy the flanks or rear of enemy; or otherwise in combat with friends.
'-]

Early Russian cavalry on the left:

Sorry, could not resist. But "Early Russians" is a bit unspecific even in a Forum dedicated just to "Napoleonics".

But there are no Russians on the left of this picture, these are muscovites.
Early Russians were created by Peter I on 1721 and current Russians by Stalin on 1932.

;-)

And what is Putoff creating then…?
sorry, so funny Boki!

Anyway, back on topic- Russian Uhlans and Nr3 Regiment in particular.

-in TMP link 'Thinking of Starting 1805 Napoleonic Russians', we have referece to them, Prince of Essling 15 Jun 2020 12:41 p.m wrote:-

Turning to Grand Duke Constantine 'uhlans' again go with Jonathan.Marcel Gayda & Andre Krijiysky "L'Armee Russe sous le Tsar Alexandre !er de 1805 a 1815" has (apologies for the lack of accents):

En 1806 ce regiment a recu la lance enbois noir avec flame en taffetas rouge (enhaut) et blanche. Les carabines ont ete retirees ainsi que le porte-mousqueton. La giberne a ete porte sur l'epaule gauche. Le manteaux du modewle general a ete pris a la place de la cape. Il a le col et les pattes d'epaule eclarte."

So yes they were called uhlans but without any lances until 1806.

I have a lucky capture from another forum, where most vocally it is stated:-

>> link

Tsarevich (Konstantin) Uhlans, lances or not_
In Zhmodikov's Tactics of the Russian Army in the Napoleonic Wars Volume 1, p. 53.

Grand Duke Konstantin's Uhlan Regiment, which later became the Life-Guard Uhlan Regiment, had no lances in 1805, but were issued them during the summer of 1806. cccxx

cccxx refers to Dubasov, N.V., Vidnes B.A., Istoriya Leib-Gvardii Konno-Grenaderskogo Polka. (A History of the Life-Guard Horse Grenadier [formerly the Life-Guard Uhlan] Regiment.) St.Petersburg, vol.2,1903, pp.59-60. It says… -omitted-

And in response to a query:-

Re: Tsarevich (Konstantin) Uhlans, lances or not In Response To: Tsarevich (Konstantin) Uhlans, lances or not ()

Robert,
In their regimental history it is clearly said that the first lances were given to them in 1806. Bobrovsky P. O., Istoriya leib-gvardii Ulanskogo … polka, St.Petersburg, 1903, vol. 1, p. 16-19, and 29. See the Russian version of my book, p. 459 n. 1. Best wishes,
Alexander
- -

AND
Bobrovsky P. O., Istoriya leib-gvardii Ulanskogo … polka, St.Petersburg, 1903, vol. 1, p. 70 Lances were taken to the regiment on 1 August (1806).

Robert
- -

This is A.Mikaberidze replying to perhaps, one Robert Goetz? maybe? A pity such captures don't contain dates of items, but I only extracted this in 2021.

Now, in my most recent post over at TMP link -'Ru. Leib-Garde Chevalier" Topic' I added the link to this below:-

As I trawl the data, and god knows why because I have no intention of creating this massive unit, but it may help someone else as well as joe if he's excited about them (note THIS REGIMENT is not part of the Garde/ LeibGarde corps. AND It was in the 5th Reserve Column under Liechtenstein ON THE DAY).

From link
Can someone with skill accurately translate this paragraph and then explain it:-

Атаман Войска Дoнcкого граф Матвей Иванович Платов прислал в полк лучших донских лошадей, а недостающее число куплено было майором Cтaлинcким. Обучение людей и выездкa производились очень успешно, под pyкoвoдcтвoм такого знатока дела, каким был Меллер-Закомельский. Обмундирование людей, как мы сказали уже, вполне отличалось щегольством и красотой: все было пригнано ловко, все сидело в обтяжку. Синие шапки не только у офицеров, но и у солдат украшались высоким петушиным султаном, а красные воротники, лацканы, обшлага и выпушки на синих куртках были очень красивы и, как новость, поражали глаза своим приятным эффектом. Прибор уланам полагался тогда из Желтой меди. Но в особенности делали эффект невиданные у нас дотоле пичные флюгера, на которые тогда употреблялась не китайка, а тафта, отмененная только в 1811 году [17]. В 1-м батальоне флюгера были красные сплошь, а во 2-м верхняя половина кpacнaя с узкою белою, а нижняя 6елая с узкою красною полосками, – совершенно так как и ныне в лейб-гвардии уланском полку.

Not our freinds at ggl-garble creates:-

Ataman of the Don Army, Count Matvey Ivanovich Platov, sent the best Don horses to the regiment, and the missing number was bought by Major Stalinsky. Training of people and dressage were carried out very successfully, under the guidance of such an expert in the matter as Meller-Zakomelsky was. The uniforms of the people, as we have already said, were quite distinguished by panache and beauty: everything was cleverly fitted, everything was tight-fitting. The blue caps not only of the officers, but also of the soldiers were decorated with a high cock sultan, and the red collars, lapels, cuffs and piping on the blue jackets were very beautiful and, as news, struck the eyes with their pleasant effect. The device was then relied on by the uhlans from yellow copper. But in particular, the hitherto unheard-of weathervanes, which were not used in China, but taffeta, which was canceled only in 1811 [17], had an especially effect. In the 1st battalion, the weather vanes were all red, but in the 2nd, the upper half was red with narrow white, and the lower half was white with narrow red stripes – exactly as it is now in the Life Guards Lancers Regiment.

The questions

- pennons.
- rigid silk. Previous ones were free falling ones and fully visible only when flutters. Probably.
- written later and therefore cover the period up to 1811.

@Dave
The footnote attributed to that quote (17) says :
[17] By the highest order of November 20, 1811

12 December 1809 – entry into the guard
From His Imperial Highness the Tsesarevich Constantine Pavlovich's Lancer regiment (of 11 squadrons) were formed two guard cavalry regiments : the Life-Guard Lancer regiment and Life-Guard Dragoon regiment, each consisting of five active squadrons and a replacement half-squadron.

===========

флюгера = pennons, also means "weathervanes" – Viskovatov calls the pennons of Polish-Lithuanian Tatar regiment "хорончевка" or "значка" – meaning "little ensign"

китайка = шёлковая ткань, ввозившаяся в Россию из Китая / silk fabric imported to Russia from China – nankeen

тафта = taffeta, at the time also typically of woven silk, but stiffened

With regard to better visibility when standing still, Sho Boki's conjecture seems likely to me – the author seems to be describing a distinctive stiff pennon

"the highest order of November 20, 1811" specifies replacing the тафта / taffeta pennons with китайка / nankeen

=============

Lances in 1804 ? Not really.
The linked article was a sort of pre-publication preview in the journal "Saint-Petersburg Messenger" of an up-coming book.
Here is the book : link
The author gives very little uniform detail. His next discussion of uniforms is ca. 1833.
He is generalising, as Sho Boki implies. This is not "counter-evidence".

More interestingly, the author claims that "ulan" derives from Tatar for " bright clever (young) man / молодец "

>>The footnote attributed to that quote (17) says :
[17] By the highest order of November 20, 1811

etc.

I don't see that the 1811 'cancellation' as described voids the description given in 1804 adjacent paragraph.

So you are saying it is just bad writing/ editing then, and everyone else is right.?

Ok then, I surrender…
d[