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"russian time machine at austerlitz?" Topic


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2,489 hits since 16 Jul 2020
©1994-2024 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Sarge Joe16 Jul 2020 3:15 p.m. PST

looking at many oob of austerlitz saw a strange thing russian uhlanen already there?

Chimpy16 Jul 2020 3:42 p.m. PST

According to this there were three Russian Uhlan Regiments in 1805:

napolun.com/mirror/napoleonistyka.atspace.com/Russian_cavalry.htm#russianuhlans

Click on no 7 for details about the Uhlans

Hope that this helps resolve your temporal confusion:-)

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP16 Jul 2020 4:07 p.m. PST

I like the time machine idea better.

SHaT198416 Jul 2020 5:50 p.m. PST

Not sure of the implications made by OP, but that Russian site also is full of inaccuracies (at least where I can find them in obvious places), so i would not trust it any more than any other source.

-many of the title statements made are unquoted/ attributed, so whose opinions may these be and their veracity?

-on uhlans, well, call it a frog, but if it doesn't croak, it may not be. Since the site fails to mention that one of the units at least was uhlan in name only (see other thread) until they were issued in 1806…

-on uhlans-2, 'nationally' we accept polish cavalry as uhlans first, so again why the observation?

Is there a suggestion that 'none' carried lances, despite the implications of nomenclature?
Bemuzedly yours,
d wine

Sarge Joe18 Jul 2020 1:45 a.m. PST

found in men of arms series in1803 husar regimments were converted to them any info of their uniforms? same like 1812?

Sarge Joe25 Jul 2020 4:57 a.m. PST

the covertedhusar not lances yet only by name?

Prince of Essling25 Jul 2020 2:08 p.m. PST

On the lance question/nomenclature see TMP link

Sarge Joe26 Jul 2020 1:15 a.m. PST

thanks duke of essling so my lances are optional same uniform 1812

Prince of Essling26 Jul 2020 4:10 a.m. PST

@Sargejoe – apologies as bit loose with my language; it is just the Grand Duke's regiment that did not carry lances until later.

In 1801 Tatar-Lithuanian and Polish Horse Regiments did have lances. The former blue over raspberry & the latter raspberry over blue.

Extract from Mark Conrad's translation of Viskavatov:

In 1801, upon the ascension to the throne of EMPEROR ALEXANDER I, the Tatar-Lithuanian [Tatarskii-Litovskii] and Polish Horse Regiments receive new uniforms and weapons as follows:

a.) Tatar-Lithuanian Regiment: rankers [sherengi] orprivates — jacket [kurtka]; pants [pantalony]; girdle [kushak]; boots [sapogi]; neckcloth [galstuk]; headdress [shapka]; gloves [perchatki]; saber [sablya], with swordknot [temlyak]; swordbelt [portupeya]; cartridge pouch [lyadunka], with crossbelt [perevyaz], and, when in mounted order, a pair of pistols [pistolety].

The jacket is blue [sinii], of cloth, with short skirts and tails; with lapels, pointed or slanted cuffs, with lining on the skirts and trim or piping along the edges of the collar, along the seams on the back, along the turnbacks, and along the sleeve seams, all of raspberry cloth; with two epaulettes of white worsted, and with tinned brass buttons (Illus. 1530).

Pants — of blue, with trim or stripes, and piping on the side seams, of raspberry cloth. These are long, to the heels; trimmed with black leather along the inner seam and fastened at the bottom with a small button, covered in raspberry cloth, and cords, likewise raspberry (Illus. 1530).

The belt [poyas] [same item as the girdle [kushak] mentioned above — M.C.] is also of blue cloth, with two raspberry cloth stripes running down its length (Illus. 1530).

Boots are round-toed, with short tops and with iron spurs screwed in above the heels.

Neckcloth, with dicky, of black cloth.

Shapka headdress — of raspberry cloth, with a black turn-up, like a cap band, trimmed along the edges with white worsted lace, with tassels and cords of white and raspberry worsted, and with a plume of white cock feathers (Illus. 1530).

Chamois gloves, with short gauntlets.

Saber, swordknot, and swordbelt — identical with those prescribed for hussars by the equipment table of 30 April, 1802.

Cartridge pouch — also of hussar pattern, except not of red Russian leather, but of black leather, worn on a whitened deerskin crossbelt, to which also belongs an iron hook for carrying the pistol (Illus. 1530).

Pistol — of the same pattern as for hussars, except with a brass ring on the butt, for attaching to the above-mentioned hook (Illus. 1530).

The saddle and all its accessories are prescribed to be as for hussars, while the saddlecloth is of dragoon style, of blue cloth with raspberry trim, with white braid along the edges, and with two IMPERIAL monograms and crowns of the same kind of braid (Illus. 1530).

Valise, of raspberry cloth; forage sack, bag, and water flask are all of the same patterns as for hussars.

Comrades [tovarishchi] are distinguished from rankers only in that in addition to the latter's prescribed weapons, they also have a lance [pika], with a red shaft and a pennon [khoronzhevka or flyuger] whose upper half is raspberry and lower half is blue. This lance's lower end is put in a small leather bucket [bushmat] fixed to the right stirrup, and at about its midpoint it has a strap of red Russian leather, similar to a swordknot, through which the man sitting on his horse passes his arm (Illus. 1530).

Noncommissioned officers, first sergeants [vakhmistry], deputies [namestniki] [Cadets? — M.C.], and also trumpeters and staff-trumpeters are distinguished from rankers and comrades in a manner similar to the way noncommissioned officers, trumpeters, and staff-trumpeters are distinguished from privates in in other regular cavalry regiments at this time.

Officers— wearing the same pattern and colors of uniform as privates or rankers, have silver buttons, epaulettes, galloon on the headdress and cartridge pouches, and braid on the saddlecloth, with a mix of black and orange silk. Plumes have a mixture of black and orange feathers at the base; the belt for the saber is black; black swordknot with silver stitching and tassel. When in formation, and in general while carrying out duties, they wear sashes [sharfy] identical to those used at this time by officers in other branches of the Russian Army (Illus. 1531).

The manner of wearing the hair and queue is the same as for other branches, except hussars, who wear side curls, as related above (204).

b.) Polish Horse Regiment — all combatant ranks differ from the same ranks of the preceding Tatar-Lithuanian Regiment only in that they have: blue [sinii] shapka headdresses; raspberry collars, with blue piping, and raspberry saddlecloths with blue trim. Also, the top halves of pennons in this regiment are blue, and the bottom halves are raspberry (Illus. 1532) (205).

For both regiments, there were no special instructions laid down regarding noncombatants.

29 March 1803— With the division of the Tatar-Lithuanian Regiment into two: the Tatar Horse Regiment and Lithuanian Horse Regiment, the first is ordered to keep the previous uniform colors described above, while the second is to have white shapka headdresses with raspberry worsted tape (206).

30 March 1803— New tables are confirmed for uniforms and other items for the above mentioned two regiments, based on which they are given new-pattern shapka headdresses: higher than before, 9 1/2 inches; with a black leather band; with two peaks, of which the front one is put down while the back one is raised up, and with two chin straps fastening with a small leather button. The top and side edges, or curves, of the headdress are trimmed with white worsted tape, later changed to braid. On the left side of the headdress, above the socket in which is placed the plume, is sewn a white (the same color as the tape) worsted tassel, or pompon, and behind the small button fixed to the top of the crown, on the right side, is a doubled-over cord of white and blue worsted, with two tassels meeting this same description, and which is passed under the right epaulette and around the neck, and is fastened to the top botton of the left lapel, so that the tassels lie right against the left epaulette (Illus. 1533). This cord is called a kitish-vitish, which in time became vitishkety. noncommissioned officers have the headdress with the cord and pompon in three colors: white, black, and orange (Illus. 1533), while officers' cords are silver with black and orange silk. The pompon itself is silver with a monogram, as for officers of other branches. In the Tatar Regiment the headdress and covered button—at the right corner and serving to attach the cord—are raspberry, but white in the Lithuanian Regiment (Illus. 1533) (207). Along with this change in headdress, all ranks in both regiments are given: the same riding trousers used in other cavalry, of grey cloth, and also grey cloth greatcoats; blue belts, with a raspberry stripe down the middle; cartridge pouches and their crossbelts, completely identical to those for hussars, i.e. of red Russian leather, while saddlecloths do not have white braid along the edges of the trimming or lining (Illus. 1534). Noncombatant ranks are prescribed the exact same uniforms and weapons as authorized in other regiments of regular cavalry (208).

26 September 1803— THE TSAREVICH CONTANTINE PAVLOVICH'S Lancer Regiment, renamed from the Odessa Hussar Regiment, is prescribed the following items of uniform, accouterments, and weaponry:

Lancer privates— blue jacket, of the pattern in use by the Tatar and Lithuanian Horse Regiments, but with the same skirts as on cuirassier kolet coats; with scarlet [alyi] collar, lapels, cuffs, piping, and lining on the skirts; with shoulder straps or epaulettes of yellow and red worsted; with yellow buttons, and also sewn-on bars on the collar and cuffs, of yellow tape [bason] with red tracery. Pants are blue with scarlet trim and piping and with black leather at the bottom. Boots have screwed-on iron spurs. The belt is blue with scarlet stripes and piping at the edges. Theheaddress when in formation [stroevaya shapka] is blue with worsted yellow and red braid, pompon, and cord. The forage cap, of the pattern used throughout the Army, is blue with a scarlet band, or without any band at all. Riding trousers, for campaign, are the same as in the rest of the cavalry. The cloak is as for hussars, of grey cloth, with a scarlet collar. Gloves (only for winter) are cloth, sewn from old uniforms. The warm coat is sheepskin. The saber, swordknot, swordbelt, and carbine are of the patterns for hussars. The shoulder belt, of leather from a dry cow [yalovochnaya kozha], is whitened; with a brass buckle, cross piece, and end piece, and an iron hook. The cartridge pouch is of black, lacquered leather, with the same plate as for cuirassiers and dragoons; with a small whitened strap for the pistol ramrod and with a crossbelt of similar material. Pistols are of the hussar pattern. The saddlecloth and all horse furniture is the same as in the Tatar, Lithuanian, and Polish Horse Regiments, except that the first item is blue with scarlet trim and likewise scarlet monograms and crowns, and edged with black braid, while the valise is grey (Illus. 1535).

Apart from these items, every Lancer squadron is issued with 20 brass kettles and 16 sickles for gathering hay.

Lancer horse — no taller than 5 feet, and not shorter than 4 feet 8 inches. There is no prescribed color, but the cost, less delivery fee, is authorized to be 40 roubles.

Carabinier-lancers [karabinery-ulany](16 in each squadron) have uniforms, accouterments, weapons, and all horse furniture as other lancers, except that the carbine is exchanged for the rifle [shtutser], described above for the preceding regiments of Army cavalry. [Yes, this does say that carabinier-lancers differ from other lancers in that they do not have carbines – M.C.]

Noncommissioned officers and first sergeants of the Lancer regiment have the same uniform as lancer privates, but with gold galloon along the bottom and side edges of the collar and on the edges of the cuffs; they have the headdress's braid, pompon, and cords in white, orange, and black, and the top of the plume is black and orange feathers (Illus. 1536). Following the example of noncommissioned officers in the rest of the cavalry, they are authorized stick canes, and of the weapons carried by lancer privates, they do not have the carbine, and the cartridge pouch is not worn over the right shoulder, as privates do, but over the left.

Distinguished officer candidates [portupei-yunkera], having the same uniform, weapons, and horse furniture as the other noncommissioned officers described above, also have officers' swordknots.

Trumpeters, also uniformed as lancer privates, with a red plume instead of white, are further distinguished from them by sewn-on trim, of yellow woollen lace: on the back's side seams, down and across the sleeves, along the skirts and tails, collar, and shoulder wings. Of lancer weapons, they do not have the carbine and cartridge pouch, in place of which each of their holsters has six places or sockets for cartridges, while their trumpets are the same as for hussars, with cords and tassels of yellow and red worsted (Illus. 1537).

A staff-trumpeter is distinguished from the preceding squadron trumpeters in that, similar to noncommissioned officers, he has his jacket's collar and cuffs with gold galloon;, a plume with a top of black and orange feathers; white, mixed with black and orange, cords and tassels for the trumpet, and a stick cane (Illus. 1537) (209).

Officers of the Lancer regiment, wearing uniforms of the same colors and pattern as for lancer privates, have (on the collar and cuffs) lace-bars embroidered in gold; gold epaulettes; silver braid and headdress cords, with black and orange silk; silver pompon; white plume with black and orange feathers at the base; gold galloon along the bottom edge of the headdress, along the straps of the swordbelt, and on the cartridge pouch's crossbelt, in the last case with two silver plates and two prickers of the same material, on small chains; swordknots and sashes are the same as in the rest of the cavalry, while saddlecloths have gold galloon along the edges of the red trim and likewise gold embroidered monograms (Illus. 1538) (210).

Noncombatants, both lower ranks and officers, are prescribed the same uniform and weapons as noncombatants in the rest of the cavalry (211).

20 March 1805— The Polish Horse Regiment is given new uniforms, following the pattern used in the Tatar and Lithuanian regiments, except with a blue headdress, with its braid and cords of white and blue worsted (Illus. 1539) (212).

Coloured illustrations:
1530. Comrade and Ranker. Tatar-Lithuanian Regiment. 1801-1803. link
1531. Officer. Tatar-Lithuanian Regiment. 1801-1803. link
1532. Officer and Comrade. Polish Horse Regiment. 1801-1803. link
1533. Shapka Headdresses. 1803-1808. link
1534. Comrades. Tatar and Lithuanian Horse Regiments. 1803-1806. link
1535. Privates. HIS HIGHNESS THE TSESAREVICH CONSTANTINE PAVLOVICH'S Lancer Regiment. 1803-1806. link
1536. Noncommissioned Officer. HIS HIGHNESS THE TSESAREVICH CONSTANTINE PAVLOVICH'S Lancer Regiment. 1803-1806. link
1537. Trumpeter and Staff-Trumpeter. HIS HIGHNESS THE TSESAREVICH CONSTANTINE PAVLOVICH'S Lancer Regiment. 1803-1806. link
1538. Officer. HIS HIGHNESS THE TSESAREVICH CONSTANTINE PAVLOVICH'S Lancer Regiment. 1803-1806. link
1539. Noncommissioned Officer. Polish Horse Regiment. 1805-1806. link

SHaT198414 Oct 2020 6:59 p.m. PST

I'll put a note on here that, in my search for the *(TM)Holy Grail (fig) I've read two accounts/ opinions that… Russian Hussars in fact always carried lances!

Yes bizarre, I know. Never seen a note about this prospect in any publication yet.
It partly ascribed the 1803 change of/ re-designation of the Odessa Hussar to the 'fact'. Despite no mention of actual lances in use @ Austerlitz by the French (recipients). Yes there were 'named', but no actual citation of 'use of'.

I could accept that somewhere they may have been presented in parades etc., just as some French Dragoon 'Elite companies' or at least the Aigle-Garde adopted the same affectation as matter of display, pride and whimsey.
regards d

ReallySameSeneffeAsBefore15 Oct 2020 2:40 p.m. PST

I've read a translated Russian doc about the Russian Hussars of 1812-3 being delighted to be issued with lances as that was felt to be the traditional weapon of all horsemen of the Ukraine/Western Russia. I'll try to track down the reference but it implies to me that the lance had NOT always been issued to the Russian Hussars- hence the 1812 issue being worthy of remark.

SHaT198415 Oct 2020 4:28 p.m. PST

Superb- look forward to it.
It is getting annoying finding hyper-references to completely unknown emphases mre about than before.
Seems the dis-news factory is all some can accomplish… digging up new unknown (but attributable) documentation, well that's different__

It's not that it is critical, but we do seem to be 'led' by both publishers and model-crafters by what they believe, or want to believe to be true,
d

*Disclaimer- Russia is just an interest as an opponent, not my main research, so I am less 'concerned' than I maight otherwise be.

Greystreak16 Oct 2020 1:59 a.m. PST

On the question of arming Russian Hussars with lances, you may wish to review the following link, courtesy of Mark Conrad's translation: link

SHaT198416 Oct 2020 2:54 a.m. PST

Thanks, but know it well.
Also, that article refers specifically to 1812 beginning, not prior- which claims are subject to some scepticism IMO.

Whats more, the Vol8 translation "Viskovatov Vol. 8 – Cuirassiers, Dragoons, Hussars, Artillery, Engineers, Garrisons 1796-1801. (Text.)" makes no mention of lances included under 'armament'.
d

SHaT198416 Oct 2020 3:51 a.m. PST

On Russian Hussars-Lance Arming front ranks-

Just to hammer in the nail____ for now,

Mark Conrad notes:
1514. Research by A. Valkovich ("Armeiskie Gusary 1812-1816: Novye Materialy", in Tseikhgauz No. 1 – 1991) modifies what Viskovatov has provided.

Firstly, the majority of hussar regiments received lances in April-May of 1812. Three regiments—the Belorussia and Oliviopol, with the Danube Army, and the Lubny, in the Crimea—were apparently armed with lances later.

Only the first rank carried the lance—640 authorized for each regiment, or 64 for each squadron. Experience in training with the lance soon revealed that the carbine on the bandolier interfered with its handling, so the front ranks' carbines were sent to replacement squadrons.

The order was also given that for hussars armed with lances, pelisses were either to be left with the wagon train or worn with arms in the sleeves; they were not to be worn loose like a cape. The lances were usually of the pattern for lancers, but with black shafts and no pennons."


SO get a lance, wear a pelisse properly, or don't at all, and lose your carbine/musketoon as well.
I trust the figure makers are reading this…
d vodka

Sarge Joe16 Oct 2020 1:37 p.m. PST

so i use hsar converted uhlan in 1805? still want to know colors uniforms yet any info help would be nice thanks serge joe


/

Prince of Essling16 Oct 2020 3:54 p.m. PST

@ Sarge Joe, NO, NO, NO lances for the hussars in 1805- only the Tatar-Lithuanian and Polish Horse Regiments with lances and both wearing the Shapka headdress. See my post of 28 July above.

My post of 15 June at TMP link about Grand Duke Constantine 'uhlans' refers – but no lances.

Sarge Joe17 Oct 2020 7:41 a.m. PST

tanks ,
but reading it's about infantry any way still thanks grts joe

Prince of Essling19 Oct 2020 5:55 a.m. PST

@ Sarge Joe, Clearly you did not understand my comments:

"NEE, NEE, GEEN lansen voor de huzaren in 1805- alleen de Tataars-Litouwse en Poolse Horse Regimenten met lansen en beide het dragen van de Shapka hoofdtooi. Zie mijn post van 28 juli hierboven.

Mijn post van 15 juni op TMP link over groothertog Constantijn 'uhlans' verwijst – maar geen lansen."

I was not referring to the whole sequence of posts but my specific entries.

"Ik verwees niet naar de hele reeks berichten, maar mijn specifieke inzendingen."

Sarge Joe19 Oct 2020 11:18 a.m. PST

denisov corodeev iasyev all don cosckas?

Prince of Essling19 Oct 2020 12:22 p.m. PST

From later list of cossack regiments PDF link , it would seem sensible to assume that:
Denisov;
Gordeiev (also seen spelt as Gordeev); and
Iasaev (also seen spelt as Isayev)
were Don cossack regiments. The regiments tended to be named after the commander unlike other cossack hosts which bore a number.

Sarge Joe20 Oct 2020 3:22 a.m. PST

THANKS PRINCE OF ESSLING FOR THIS INFO this wAY I WILL finish my colection cheers joe

Sarge Joe30 Oct 2020 3:59 a.m. PST

i knew i read it and now i have found it again converted 1805 odessa hussars into in grand duke constantine's uhlans with lances to conform in other regiments equipment '' quote page 15 man at armes serial number 189

Sarge Joe30 Oct 2020 4:25 a.m. PST

a mistake by men at armes series or others?

Prince of Essling30 Oct 2020 5:44 a.m. PST

Mistake in Men at Arms – no lances for Grand duke's Uhlans until 1806!

Sarge Joe30 Oct 2020 5:58 a.m. PST

men at arms series 189 page 1 at austerlitz constine uhlanen nine officers ran away according to Wilson

Sarge Joe30 Oct 2020 6:14 a.m. PST

at my age i try to rember things i Read 61 y for this info any way cheers guys joe

Sarge Joe30 Oct 2020 6:32 a.m. PST

mistake ?een fout van mannen bij armes serie of anderen?

Prins van Essling
Mistake in Men at Arms – geen lansen voor Groothertog Uhlans tot 1806!

Sergeant Joe

Sarge Joe30 Oct 2020 6:37 a.m. PST

this wil end in a yes or no discussion about lances?

Sarge Joe30 Oct 2020 6:50 a.m. PST

mine have lances because equipment of others uhlanen

Sarge Joe30 Oct 2020 6:59 a.m. PST

d zeer ifficult topic for many huh ?

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