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"[1805 Austria] Grenadiers- How would you depict them?" Topic

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Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP04 Apr 2021 8:30 p.m. PST

We know that amongst other factors, Mack was responsible for upheaval in Austian infantry.
To wit, he formally stopped the mass or 'combined' grenadier battalions of regimental 'divisions' being assigned to them.

He adopted a somewhat Russian principle of reorganising the infantry regiments (in his own theatre- Germany) into a single grenadier battalion, and 4 field battalions of 4 companies and a 'depot' centre.

As each regiment only consisted of two companies of grenadiers (one division), fusiliers were now 'recruited/ transferred' for the additional two companies.

I've read they were issued shakos, as they were designated 'Junge-Grenadieren' or such. But I doubt that, when most regiments still wore a helmet, that can be correct.

Background (this is complex, stay with me~).
AT Austerlitz, there existed only ONE complete infantry regiment. For 40 years I believed Duffy et al. that this one unit was (called) the Salzburg Landwehr Regiment (referenced as militia).

According to what I've read online since- there were no actual landwehr as such in existence at that time and certainly no 'Salzburg' either.
Put link here::

Now, even Osprey in their infantry volume shows the IR#23 in 1798 as inhaber- "von Toscana; later Würzburg; disbanded 1809." Seems Duffy and a whole lot of others swallowed something…

Neither Bowden, Goetz nor H&C have the info correct- except Wurzburg appears in Bowdens OB but not his text!

Following along, the 'reconstruction' of the Austrian lands meant the redesignation occurred. From DaveHollins~ IR23's Inhaber was Archduke Ferdinand, the Habsburg brother between Franz and Charles. He was Grand Duke of Tuscany until the 1803 Mediation of Germany, when he was given the old Archbishopric of Salzburg's lands as an Elector. In 1806 under the Peace of Pressburg, he was moved to GD of Wurzburg.

I think Dave has inadvertently reversed Salzburg and Wurzburg above, as the regiment 'title' changed in 1803 to Wurzburg.
Given that IR#23 had 6 battalions present- one Grenadier, and 1-4th and 6th battalions approx 3000 men depending upon who you believe as sources.

Now- I had collected nearly 200 'landwehr' figures for the purpose based on 'authoritive data' from those sources.

Now I've decided that such a regiment must be recreated truthfully and in doing the grenadiers battalion had been painting only grenadier figures (WF). (I already have 2x bases painted form my 'combined battalion days).

I want to add the 'junge'. All I can see is adding them as standard infantry in helmet, not shakos.

Anyone able to offer a reason/ proof I shouldn't? Due to the low numbers I'll be enconomising by only making all battalions only 16 figures (4 bases) strong.


Musketballs04 Apr 2021 9:07 p.m. PST

Ah, the Salzburg Landwehr at Austerlitz…that takes me back about 30 years…

Dave Hollins is correct on the changes for IR23.

The 1804 Schematismus, showing ex-Toscana, 1803 Salzburg:


And the 1807 Schematismus, showing ex-Salzburg, 1806 Wurzburg:


The Jung-Grenadiers wore helmets…I'm sure it's referenced in quite a few of the regimental histories. I'll try and dig out a couple of quotes.

Musketballs04 Apr 2021 9:33 p.m. PST

From the IR36 history:

'Diese neuen Grenadier-Kompagnien bekamen den Namen „Jung-Grenadiere". Erhielten Säbel, behielten jedoch ihre früheren Kaskete und blieben bis zur Uebersetzung in die älteren Kompagnien, welche zunächst aus ihnen ergänzt werden sollten, im Genüsse der geringeren Löhnung.'


You might have to pass up on the sabres.

Musketballs04 Apr 2021 10:18 p.m. PST

And an interesting snippet from IR60 on how the new Grenadier Battalions formed up:

'Die bisherige erste Grenadier-Compagnie blieb auch im Grenadier-Bataillon die rechte Flugelcompagnie. Die zweite und dritte Grenadier-Compagnie wurden neu gebildet, die frühere 2. Grenadier-Compagnie stand nunmehr als die 4. am linken Flügel.'


Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP04 Apr 2021 11:08 p.m. PST


Thanks dude, I don't need to go a mm further with that confirmation.

Weird I'd read the reversed names for the regiment as the logic seemed to fit. I understood Wurzburg was ceded under the former convention. I guess not…

Bleeped texts the painting I've done so far, but what's a few more fusiliers. As other formations with multiple grenadier battalions were on campaign, no doubt I can churn out another. Won't miss the sabres much I don't think.

I suppose it's logical to blend the companies that way but it kind of renders the logical nuance of 'elite' moot; much the same as Russian units,…

regards d

Musketballs05 Apr 2021 1:30 a.m. PST

Just have to add:

"…reorganising the infantry regiments (in his own theatre- Germany)…"

The re-organisation was army-wide, including the regiments in Italy and the Tyrol. The regimental histories make it pretty clear.

As far as I can figure out, the idea that Archduke Charles's army didn't re-organise seems to be based on a mis-reading of Rothenberg p113 (1995 Spellmount edition), where GR notes that Charles didn't try and implement new drill regulations in Italy.

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP05 Apr 2021 3:12 a.m. PST

>>Just have to add:

Well ok thanks, I've been away that long I bought Rothenberg as soon as he published, so didn't know about any changes/ rewrites. Were there many?

I'm sure is was situation normal- leader becomes alternate, doesnt agree with conditions so does something different; waits, regains power, loses power due to ooposition… how many times…

Which I'm sure is almost as bad as a few surviving documents showing that Marshals did something ordinary, like issuing explanatory texts- that gets translated in modern-speak as new, changes, enhancements, when in fact it was pretty much status quo all round.

cheers d

von Winterfeldt05 Apr 2021 8:23 a.m. PST

Yes it is referenced in a lot of sources, I mean German sources, for 1805 those grenadier battalions, being sort of permanent would even carry an Ordinair Fahne, so two companies in full grenadier outfit and the other two in Füsilier one, and the identical facing colour.

von Winterfeldt05 Apr 2021 8:25 a.m. PST

actually there should be some old threads on that on TMP.

von Winterfeldt05 Apr 2021 10:32 a.m. PST

about colours – yes or no

TMP link

so in 1805 the Leibfahne – my bad

or some general threads

TMP link

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP05 Apr 2021 4:42 p.m. PST

mr.Balls you made me go to a church site!
Must be my first time…

Thoroughly confused as I was/am I thought it was the measure of the French politics that forced the changes that affected regimental 'areas' whereas it reads like an internal shuffle of fiefdoms-

Thanks vW you have great recall. Or a full hard drive…
cheers d

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP06 Apr 2021 4:11 a.m. PST

And I forgot to add sadly, adding to the poor research undertaken, proven once again that PJH and Ospreys are, unreliable at best as sources.
Bowden still remains a mystery why they had two name versions in the one book; but I've read enough rhetorical claptrap in it to understand that there too the premise of open and fair handed construction is far from on-offer.

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP11 Apr 2021 2:42 a.m. PST

Thankfully, in 1805 the Leibfahne I had used for my 'combined' Grenadier unit when i thought i was making them for 1809.

So now all I have to do is produce 4 Jung-Grenadieren to stand in the front rank of two bases. It will at least give the impression of a 'varied' unit when in line. Then some way down the year I'll have to start on the other fusilier battalions proper of IR#23 Salzburg!

But they are rostered after the single battalion units of Jurcziks and Rottermunds command, some of which are done already.

Cheers guys ~ mounted and prepped a few lancers for the token troops in the Avant-Garde.
regards d

von Winterfeldt11 Apr 2021 11:30 a.m. PST

I would opt to place them at the left side of the battalion.

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP11 Apr 2021 2:33 p.m. PST

Hmmm, colour me confused again!
Why H-K? When the regs state the senior Grenadier company forms on the right, and the next senior forms the left of the line, with the 'Jung' in the centre?
You just playing with my mind right…?

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