"Austrian Grenadiers - Flags" Topic

I am hoping that some of the knowledgeable people on TMP may know the answer to a question on whether standards were carried by Austrian combined grenadier battalions during the French Revolutionary Wars. As I understand it, these battalions were formed at the beginning of a campaign or before an individual battle from the grenadier companies at the commander's disposal.

During the SYW such battalions did not carry standards. Following the 1805 Mack reforms, the grenadier companies within an individual regiment were designated the regiment's Leib battalion and were assigned the regiment's Leib-fahne. When the Mack reforms were replaced by Archduke Charles' reforms after the Austerlitz campaign the combined grenadier battalions were then assigned an Ordinair-fahne from one of the contributing regiments and the Leib-fahnen remained with the parent regiments.

Did the combined grenadier battalions of the Revolutionary period march without standards, as in the SYW, or had they already started to carry them from some interim date? Or was it a case of they had been granted standards under the Mack reforms and there was a reluctance to take standards away from them and so they were assigned other standards in their place.

I am too lazy to look…🤓
And asking myself the same, I said " they'd be like Russians, having had one flag per company in theory…" So as flags are useful in battle, lets say they might have had the senior company or the like in the bn carry an Ordinär Fahne from its rgt albeit maybe an old one (with the very tiny shields of otherwise lost in the confederation, small ex empire holdings pre 1806).
Bet.
Will see what say the non lazy/ knowledgeable/ Strüdel eating chaps with the profoundly accurate historical answers.

Up to now I was quite positive that they carried a colour, but after checking several sources, I am failing to see any evidence for that.
Well let's hope indeed what the Sacher Torte eating chaps will have to say.

vW (aka HK) – did you already check Wrede? I can't think of another source for this information.
Maybe another piece of Sachertorte – with a lot of cream of course – might help in the search …

Yes Wrede second volume page 271

Die Grenadier Bataillone führten Fahnen, das Halten einer Musik – Bande wurde untersagt.

Though Sachertorte is out of reach at the moment, as well as Schlagobers, well have to try out this combination ab the next time :-)).

So according to Wrede – yes they did carry a colour.

Well, then Apfelstrudel it shall be …
I haven't been aware of grenadier battalions not carrying standards during the SYW.
The forming of separate grenadier battalions started as ad hoc formationss, but ended in permanent units, the grenadier companies completely detached from their regiment (although still part of it administratively). This was a fluent development. To prove the carrying of standards for a certain grenadier battalion at a given time in the 1790s would require a lot of research in the archives. Sorry, not possible at the moment. I'd rather go with Wrede (standards) without being able to fix an "interim date".

Sorry but you can research it to death, but I can assure you that most gamers will WANT one even if they cant or shouldn't have one. lol

I refer you to the question of the original poster – he asked a question and I tried as best as I could to answer.

I am not most wargamers

I think the "lol" was to show it was a light hearted comment veedub. Us gamers are silly fools at times and like our colours. I really didn't read it as a criticism of your research or response.

It is a funny thing, but we can be totally obsessional when we choose to be, yet than can be highly selective!

I count rivets, I want to know about button colours on cuff slashes. But I also want stove pipe caps ("Shakos") on my 1815 Rifles and Light Regts whatever evidence is found for the Belgic cap. My Gendarmes d'Elite have three eagles, for 20 figures…..

It is great to hear the experts evidence and then it is matter of individual choice whether to apply it. Plenty of room for both and both equally welcome

Yeah I was aware of the original post and what he wanted, and indeed I like to know these things too, but when you are at the 'sharp end' supplying these things to gamers and telling them they shouldn't have a standard bearer, they still defy you then criticize your range for not having one! oh the irony and humour. And yes Von W it was tongue in cheek, the lol implied that? And PS I'm not 'most wargamers' either, but I do have a sense of humour. Apologies if my sarcasm didn't come over correctly, your work on research is greatly appreciated, but I can assure you MOST will ignore it.

According to an apparently well researched article from 1967 (found only by closely searching my "Archives") grenadier battalions were granted yellow flags from 1769 onwards, when they were grouped together on a permanent basis.

David Hollins "The Austrian Army" Chapter 3, page 92, in "Armies of the Napoleonic wars" edited by Gregory Fremont-Barnes says:

"The Grenadier battalions only ever took a single spare Ordinarfahne from one of the regimental depots when marching out to war, except in 1805."

The chapter goes onto say about flags in general "……. As the new organisation was implemented, an Imperial decree of 22 June 1805 reduced the flags to one per battalion, the Grenadier (or Leib) battalion carrying the white Leibfahne and the others carrying one Ordinfahne each.

In 1806, when the army reverted to its former organisation, so did the flags, i.e. the Leibfahne plus one Ordinfahne for the 1st (Leib) battalion, two Ordinars for the others…….. However, in 1808, the number of flags was reduced to one per battalion, the Leibfahne then being the only flag of the 1st battalion….." "

This is footnoted as follows:
Dr F Kaindl, "Von den gamlten zu den gewerben Feldzeichen" (Wien, Schriften des Heeresgeschichtlichemuseum, 1969), Volume 4 pages 39 – 49.

The 1791 distribution of grenadier battalions and make up can be seen from the Militär Almanach und Schematismus 1791:
link
link
link

a pity that these nice scans from Hungary miss some of the fold outs – as can be seen, alas not exactly in the high quality form kremerius

Many thanks for all the contributions; I was sure that there would be TMPers able to help.

I shall give my grenadiers Ordinair-fahnen.

It is also really nice to see the Militär Almanach und Schematismus 1791, thank you to Prince of Essling for the links.