"Please stop please" Topic

I suspect maybe some over zealous fans have said more, however I see that from both sides.

Maybe you could give us an example of "both sides"? I believe TMP fans have been universally well-behaved.

I would think that an attempt to kill another company would be considered an "attack," no matter how polite it might be.

Ummmm. Mr Bill – the last chain that was deleted threatened to give away TFL Rules for free. I'm sure you saw that. I wouldn't consider that good behavior.

At this point I think both parties would do well to step away from the keyboard.

PS – when I say Mr. Bill it's meant with respect.

So you delete my 'middle of the road' statement and then ask questions?
No…thats not how it will work for me I am afraid. Your rules your club so Ill take my future sponsorship elsewhere.
p.s
your admin never got back to me as I asked how I can sponsor again. Shame

Has it not occurred that this heavy-handed approach to moderation might at least partially explain why some people feel like they have a grievance with this place?

I've never known any forum quite so trigger-happy when it comes to deleting and censoring innocuous posts.

I do not approve of TFL's approach. On the other hand, I think Mr. Armintrout has overreacted in his comments on this subject. There is a bit "bullying" style of how you have reacted to all this Bill. I think trying to stay above the fray is a better approach even if you feel you are being directly threatened. As leader of TMP statesmanship is what is needed here IMHO. I have been in similar situations in my own career and I know that how we react can make situations better or worse.

As for the specific issue at hand can someone refer me to the policy or announcement. Like many on TMP I tend to stay within my little silos and so while I have a vague sense of the issue I'd like to know what the essence of the conflict is about.

+10 Armiesarmy
+10 Squirebev

Peter Pig is great!!! I love your figures, your rules, and your great service. I will continue to support you.

I didn't suggest giving away TFL rules for free via sharing sites. I pointed out that someone could very easily do so, rationalising that TFL "deserve" it because nobody should be allowed to patronise any business that whips up social media hate against another business. If someone thinks so, that's all the justification they need, right?

To do any such thing would quite clearly be an attack on their business, but one based on the same twisted reasoning as that used to justify attacking someone else's. What if someone thought of doing that? How could they rationally argue that their own business should not be undermined in that way, but that other peoples' should?

I wonder if they thought about that properly before marshalling people to attack Bill's business.

I have the screen shot. You said – "what if I were to email these for nothing to anybody who PMs me….. "

Seriously, it's over. Bill and crew wisely deleted your posts. Let's drop it please.

Has it not occurred that this heavy-handed approach to moderation might at least partially explain why some people feel like they have a grievance with this place?

I'm not going to leave up a post which is proposing something illegal.

There is a bit "bullying" style of how you have reacted to all this Bill.

In other words, when I defend my company, my workers, and myself, against someone trying to put us all out of business, you feel that my "tone" was somehow "bullying."

Walk a mile in my shoes, my friend. Walk a mile in my shoes.

YouTube link

This morning I didn't have any idea what was going on here.

Read this thread and the other similar one and thought the overall tone was odd and perhaps not showing the whole picture.

Went over to check the other side's FB page and the whole thing seemed to be way more reasonable there.

Accusations of being labelled racist, anti-religious and homophobic seemed odd as at least I didn't encounter any such activity. Also the tone between the different parties is vastly different as the other side seems to be way more calm and composed.

I do not have a side on this and I do not spend money on either side. But I do think that there is one side that is conducting themselves more or less properly and the other one that is making a bit of a fool of themselves.

(I've copied my post this time, BTW)

I'm not going to leave up a post which is proposing something illegal.

I'm talking more generally, Bill.

Threads are full of posts that have been "snipped" or removed entirely without explanation.

It's very difficult to follow a thread when great chunks of it have been censored.

Accusations of being labelled racist, anti-religious and homophobic seemed odd as at least I didn't encounter any such activity.

We have screenshots.

TMP link

TMP link

When you see phrases like "magic underpants" and "magic stone", they are mocking the Mormon religion.

If they want to criticize our company, fine. But why bring up our religion? Why bring up anyone's sexual orientation? Why attack Filipinos for how they speak English?

Threads are full of posts that have been "snipped" or removed entirely without explanation.

It's very difficult to follow a thread when great chunks of it have been censored.

Posts which violate forum rules are removed. Personal attacks are not allowed. Other than that, there hasn't been much deletion in the TFL discussions here.

Geez, Mithmee and I have been gone for a few days and all heck breaks loose!

Threads are full of posts that have been "snipped" or removed entirely without explanation.

It's very difficult to follow a thread when great chunks of it have been censored.

Other forums, like an adventurous lead one, delete and lock threads/posts immediately they are off topic. Even speculation is not allowed.

Example, asking "what if" this historical event did not occur.

That's against their rules.

Not really a bad thing if people can't control themselves and get angry over a fictional supposition.

Mind you, lots of Dawghousing from the Napoleonic threads on here because of that.

As for those on the TFL Facebook, it seems they are comprised of individuals who are pretty disgruntled with TMP for one reason or another and certainly seem to be egging the TFL guys on.

I think if anyone wants to see the pitchfork crowd's responses, just go on over and post something like, "Hi, I'm from TMP, what's going on?"

TFL is starting to ban some of the worst of them, but won't take responsibility for what happened on their forum.

It's up to Facebook, they say.

Facebook doesn't do anything, because they don't look at context, they don't allow anyone to comment when they file a complaint. So someone can say something like "Some guy on TMP is going to start to murder people any moment" and they say, "Not against Community Standards."

This whole situation is very sad. We should all just get along.

But trite platitudes aside the cancel culture thing is tiresome. If you don't like something move along. If an advertiser did something you disagree with your free not to buy their product. Simple personal choice. I wonder how many concerned customers are ever actually real customers anyway. And I bet those that are still buy the toys in the end. TMP has a big established community and hounding every advertiser because of a squabble is pretty unfair

Caedite Eos said:
" I wonder how many concerned customers are ever actually real customers anyway. "

That is a good point. There exist out there MANY people in social media land (and the real world too) who consider themselves crusaders against something, whether that be racism, sexism, whatever-ism. They have such pitiful and meaningless lives that they live for the opportunity to be offended so they can claim the moral high ground and go attack someone. It doesn't matter that said people would have never been customers of TMP/the advertisers. They may not have even heard of miniature gaming. BUT there is some outrageous thing happening out there in the Internet land, somebody pointed it out to them (TFL or one of the disgruntled ex-TMP-ers), and because they have this psychological need to be offended, off they go to find offense. People who want to be offended will invariably find it. Even if they have to invent it.

They are basically slobbering attack dogs, who frequently do the very things they attack others for supposedly doing. You can't reason with them; its a psychological defect, and they react just as if you had questioned their religion, for its the very same sort of thing to them.

Walk a mile in my shoes, my friend. Walk a mile in my shoes.

Many of us have walked this mile Bill. Christ walked this mile. He is our example of how to walk it.

That's good to know, wmyers, because it certainly wasn't the case a few years ago when one disturbed individual who had no interest in gaming the subject under discussion but was solely intent on sabotage, was given free rein to run riot on particular threads on that forum, whereupon the moderators then bizarrely tried to attribute guilt to all the contributors who, until the interjector launched his assaults, had been having perfectly calm, rational, and reasoned exchanges.

Wow !!! Who was that ?

I have to agree with Lonkka1Actual. I never looked at the TFL Facebook page before all this business started, but since then I have. IMHO TFL are coming across to neutrals as being more reasonable, perhaps simply because they appear calmer and are using less assertive language.
I am not taking sides because do not have sufficient grounds to do so. I have given up trying to check claims, especially since so much as been deleted. My feeling however that this business is liable to hurt TMP mor than TFL. It would be better for all parties, and more importantly better for the hobby,if all parties moved on.
Having said that, I am wondering now, if this post is going to get me barred.

+1 Marcus Brutus

I never looked at the TFL Facebook page before all this business started, but since then I have. IMHO TFL are coming across to neutrals as being more reasonable, perhaps simply because they appear calmer and are using less assertive language.

Well, if you look at their Facebook page, aren't you only getting one side of the story? They've removed most of the pro-TMP posts, and finally cleaned up some of the worst of the anti-TMP posts and banned some people.

I have given up trying to check claims, especially since so much as been deleted.

That's why we took screenshots. You can see them in the other topics here on TMP.

My feeling however that this business is liable to hurt TMP mor than TFL.

Probably because TFL is trying to drive us out of business. We're not trying to kill Too Fat Lardies.

It would be better for all parties, and more importantly better for the hobby,if all parties moved on.

I don't know how you expect us to 'move on' while this campaign to destroy our website continues. I had a staffer in tears last night because she doesn't know if she's going to be able to support her nieces and nephews any more.

How would TFL respond if there was a campaign targeting shops and sites that sold their rules?

"Probably because TFL is trying to drive us out of business."

Have they any success? I understand, that only 4 advertisers left TMP. This is 20 dollars per month. You probably even don't notice the difference.

If you read through the TFL Facebook page, you realise either a lot of the posters are pretending they have never heard of TMP before or the campaign is one of promoting a site to those who mostly live on the other side of the "pond".

Have they any success? I understand, that only 4 advertisers left TMP. This is 20 dollars per month. You probably even don't notice the difference.

Remember that $5 USD per month is the starting rate for advertising. Some advertisers spend much more.

We're down by 9 advertisers, and another cut his level of advertising. That's a not insignificant loss in income. But then we gained one new advertiser and one returning advertiser, and several others increased their advertising to show their support.

So, yes, we have some big decisions to make.

wmyers,

I know you may find it surprising but I know a lot of gamers who HAVE never heard of TMP. They get most of their wargaming news from blogs, magazines and facebook…

Mike

I know you may find it surprising but I know a lot of gamers who HAVE never heard of TMP. They get most of their wargaming news from blogs, magazines and facebook…

Certainly nobody else in my local gaming group had ever heard of it.

Until this recent silliness, that is.

It could be a North American thing, but when I do internet searches for various miniatures related queries, TMP is very often very high in the results. That's how I found out about TMP.

Until this recent silliness, that is.

I find it offensive that people are using terms like "ridiculous" and "silly" to refer to homophobic remarks made concerning TMP staff, and anti-Mormon comments (and worse) made regarding myself.

This kind of conduct in our hobby is not "OK". It is not funny. It should not be swept under the rug.

4 pages and counting…….

They appear to have stopped a month ago. Are you trying for a re-start?

Henry Martini +1

Yeah👨‍✈️ … "move on … nothing to see here …"

martin
have they stopped?

I'm so confused. Is all of this a fallout of the advertiser rules change from a while ago? That seems to be when everything went downhill. Personally I thought it was a dumb idea but I understood why it was done.

I don't post here often so I have no dog in this fight but it's my go-to site for information in historical gaming that you can't really find elsewhere.

It's a shame really. I had heard really good things about TFL and they seemed like great, upstanding fellows with a real passion for historical wargaming. I was strongly considering purchasing some of their games. But this is too much and I can't in good conscience support them for doing this. Especially not after seeing their FB post saying how this is all good and righteous and they are saints for making the hobby more inclusive or whatever virtue-signaling buzzwords people use nowadays to justify this. I always felt that mindset is silly. Not everything has to be inclusive, for one, and second this is a hobby about toy soldiers, not a political movement that needs to have representation in every sort of minority group or what have you to avoid appearing politically incorrect. Hell, we play games that let us play as the "bad guys" in history and try to change history on the tabletop.

Whatever their gripe with TMP might be trying to get people to leave is exactly the kind of crap that's wrong with society today.

Is all of this a fallout of the advertiser rules change from a while ago?

It may have begun a few years ago, when TFL was offended when I commented that their 'in jokes' limited their product appeal outside the U.K. – frankly, if you don't know the U.K. culture, the jokey titles just look… peculiar.

But it really took off when TFL was offended by some bad reviews by TMP members of their products (i.e., "worst WWII ruleset"), which led to their suggestion of 'no negativity allowed', which the TMP community sharply rejected, leading to TFL stopping their advertising here.

The new advertising policy was announced a few months later, with TFL again on our forums being sharply critical of the new policy.

Then came TFL's new product launch, when we had problems with trolls deliberately breaking the new advertising policy. I have no reason to believe TFL coordinated in any way with the trolls, but TFL was strongly offended when we took action against the trolls and shut them down, and tried to get advertisers and Supporting Members to boycott TMP over it. That led to some atrocious behavior by trolls, particularly on FB, where TFL was negligent in exercising control on their own forum until far too late.

Yikes. Sad that people can't take negative criticism anymore.

Well on the bright side this made me give my support to TMP so keep up the good work!

It may have begun a few years ago, when TFL was offended when I commented that their 'in jokes' limited their product appeal outside the U.K. – frankly, if you don't know the U.K. culture, the jokey titles just look… peculiar.

It is possible. I know here in Canada we had all the same shows (Carry On, Benny Hill, etc) on TV and I am sure Australia and New Zealand (and probably South Africa) did as well).

I remember as a kid going on a trip to the USA and asking for a cheeseburger and chips and when the waitress saw my face when she brought me a plate with a cheeseburger and potatoe chips on, she said they look on my face told her that was not what I was expecting. I think she even said, "Oh, you must be from Canada."

I had never even considered that you could put those kind of "chips" as a side dish. Apparently it's quite common.

Regardless, she was very nice about it and changed them out to proper chips. I think she let me keep the wrong kind, too.

That's one thing I have always loved about the USA; the friendliness and politeness of the people.

Apparently it's quite common.

Very much so, some sandwich shops don't even have fried potatoes, i.e. French Fries. But a number of choices of chips are available, including potato and corn chips, of different flavors/types.

the friendliness and politeness of the people.

Well than don't turn on the news from the US. 🤔 There is not a lot of that going … 😕 😁😉

Well than don't turn on the news from the US. 🤔 There is not a lot of that going … 😕 😁😉

Went to school in the mid-West was very freaked out when abject strangers would say hello or good morning. I get a sense that it has changed, I hope not.

Dapeters, it's the same in the UK. As a Londoner who moved up to South Yorkshire, it took some time to get comfortable with complete strangers greeting you for no apparent ulterior motive.

And it's untrue my local pub is called the Slaughtered Lamb, though there is a resemblance to it – both the decor and the regulars – and I wouldn't have it any other way. Young American hikers out on the moors might want to keep walking though.

Young American hikers out on the moors might want to keep walking though.

IK always thought that movie was an advertisement for the idea of "stay in the pub and drink all night".

Ah, don't forget that in those days, last orders were called at 11pm, and while rural lock-ins were commonplace, that would only have led to said hikers experiencing an even more horrible fate at the hands of the locals but that's another movie, and we wouldn't then have been able to appreciate Jenny Agutter in (and out of) a nurse's uniform.

Went to school in the mid-West was very freaked out when abject strangers would say hello or good morning. I get a sense that it has changed, I hope not.

I some place in the USA it has changed … I think the term is "a sign on the times" …

Even if you are an American, there are places where you are not welcomed by other Americans. In both rural areas and in the cities. Being a PI before I retired, sometimes in these small rural towns or even in some cities I had to go to to "complete my mission". You go into one of the small local bars, they know you are not a "regular", per se.
So you were not welcomed.