"decent fastplay mass combat rules?" Topic

Hey everyone I've been trying to get some ancients converts, and find a game to play with my brother on our big table.

ABC has been super fun, for small games.

Anything like it that would work in 28mm?
Preferably free games (i'll gladly playtest any homegrown rules, as my own rules fell apart.)
Any suggestions would be nice!

Thanks
Austin

You could try the mantic kings of war rules, I believe they are still free to download .
Been around awhile too so should be plenty of army lists available for what you need.

Warmaster fantasy is fun. It works in 28mm too.

I already play hail Caesar pictors lol.

Im Looking for rules lite games.

More 'rules lite' than Hail Caesar?

I guess you could roll marbles at them…

Well let me rephrase:

A game that could end sooner than hail Caesar. I love HC its the best game ever. Just takes a while lol.

What do you mean by "mass combat"? If you mean a game that represents a whole battle, rather than just a skirmish, then DBA might be worth look. If you want lots of figures, one option is to use double-sized DBA bases, with quadruple the number of figures (so a heavy infantry element would have 16 figures instead of four, and would have a 120mm frontage, instead of 60mm).

Otherwise, will be hard to find a game that uses lots of miniatures, and yet plays faster than Hail Caesar. Maybe Impetus? I don't know, I've never played Impetus, but it looks quick.

How about SAGA? It's Dark Ages, rather than ancients, and is a large skirmish rather than mass battle, so not what you are asking for, but it's lots of fun, easy to learn, and plays fast.

Try Basic Impetus. Very fast play, very easy to learn, and best of all, the rules are a free download.

Yeah, Basic Impetus is fast. And you can use any size unit from a singe DBX stand on up, just adjust the movement/ranges.

DBA is even faster.

If you looking for fast, fun and reasonably available rules (via WADBAG) and players… I would reiterate the vote for DBA.

Command and Colors?

I've played dba before…. may have to again with double base size, double depth.

Same with impetus.
But never in 28mm

Thanks for the suggestions

Austin

What is ABC?

Neil Thomas Ancient & Medieval wargaming may be what you are after.
Very simple army level rules.

Yes, I was thinking the Neil Thomas set too. But Commands and Colours might do the trick too.

Punkrabbit returns:

ABC is ancient battlelines clash, made by Shaun Travers. He is a member on here, and a very nice guy (with a great set of rules.)

link

Is his blog.

I"ll check the Neil Thomas rules out.
And commands and colors. That name gets dropped a lot around here, so they must be decent rules

Thanks
Austin

basic impetus

To the Strongest, by Simon Miller (aka BigRedBat) is meant to handle full-size battles, plays very quickly and uses a pretty neat game mechanic. Fully scalable to whatever units sizes you have the figures for, too.

The rules are still in development, hopefully for puiblication later this year, but if you ask, Simon might be willing to provide you a PDF of the Beta version to playtest. That's how I got them.

I'm quite impressed and looking forward to the release of the full version.

Warmaster Fantasy battles is a pretty good product. GW even did a monster game using 28mm WFB minis instead of the usual 10mm at a Games Day. Very impressive.

Another option would be War of the Ring, GW's massed-battle game for Middle Earth. I'm very fond of WotR, as it gives heroes a presence on the battlefield without making them into unstoppable monsters. Same with magic. No cataclysmic unit-removal spells, but some decent morale boosters or simple stat buffs. Having lots of troops with a few good leaders is far more important than having a small group of demigods of war.

My Sword and Spear rules for Ancient & Medieval battles play in about 2-3 hours for a 2 player game with about 12 units each. You can use any scale figures and any basing, as long as units are roughly equal frontage.
See this thread for more info :
TMP link

You can get them through my website :
link

I have posted some AARs on here recently so you can get an idea of how it plays:
TMP link
TMP link
TMP link

DBA giant game battles is about as big as you would want (as big as you have figures for) and as simple as you want. My group has done 5 players on a side with up to 100 elements on a side, in an evening.

This one has double deep elements Indians vs Alexander

Benevenetum
picture

Trojan War

Like the Trojan war. Shame on me as I have had this army for almost 18 years with no progress.

I would seriously hesitate to recommend DBA. It tends to be very weird, takes a TON of getting used to, and is very hard to convince people to get into.

Overall, it is too generic (the Greco-Persian wars seem predicated on reproducing Marathon every single time, HYW is based on Crecy and Agincourt, etc, etc) and Second Punic War battles are a disaster (Romans outflanking Carthaginians with their legions – who knew it was that easy?)

There is pretty much only one strategy (line 'em up and try and win the domino flanking effect) and it is obsessed with one tactic: turning the flank.

That said, it really does house-rule well, and if you can find a good group of guys (I am blessed that way) then you have a critical mass to keep it going, and attract new blood.

But if you're hoping to get a steady supply of opponents, you'd be better off with something else, like Commands and Colours. There are a great many tabletop adaptations all over the web, and you'll find the hand management aspect attracts "non-wargamers" more easily than DBA does.

I respectfully disagree. Although trying to turn your opponent's flank is important in DBA (as it should be, and I would be suspicious of almost any game where that is not the case), there is a lot more going on than that. Obtaining favorably matchups is equally important, and can be very challenging. Also, you have to pay attention to maintaining cohesion, something most rules ignore completely.

Mighty Armies Ancients, but I'm not sure if it would work with your figures (it uses element basing, but is pretty forgiving as long as both sides are the same).

Ivan DBA, cleary you would, if your handle is anyhting to go by! I stand by my assessment though, DBA is not the safest bet for an introductory ancients game, since the issues I mentioned have to be remediated before it'll gain traction with a wider audience.

Again, it fails utterly at the Punic Wars, heaven only knows how Darius' troops smashed hoplite armies in full frontal engagements at Ephesus, and Salamis on Cyrpus, given the troop types of DBA. And why would any Greek hoplite army fear Persian cavlary in DBA? Plataea: why would the Greeks hang back in rough terrain, complaining about the endless Persian frontal cavalry charges? DBA is too backward-looking to reproduce ancient battles, since for example, what Knight general will now charge bows, as at Agincourt?

Again, turning a flank was as difficult and risky for the flanking army as it was for those being flanked. I have no issue with an outflanked army being in a bad position, but at element level, it just wasn't nearly as decisive. In DBA it's the only tactic, really.

Superior match-ups are down to the player setting up second. You have to go to a bigger board, where it then becomes an issue of who better wiggles the approaching staggered lines. And the match-ups are desinged to.. turn an enemy element's flank, as opposed to smashing the centre asunder, which reminaed the overwhelming goal of ancient warfare, since it was easier to implelement, and had less risk of catastrophic failure for the flanking forces.

And DBA tears up the basic fact of military experience handed down over several millenia: it's often down to the quality of the men in the fight. Alexander didn't win because he had a phalanx. He won because his army was very disciplined, extremely well-trained, and men follow rising fortunes, not declining ones in the age of Empires.

Games such as CC:A capture the following missing elements:
1. Uncertainy of outcome. This is more forward looking, and doesn't actively discourage historical practice.
2. Attrition. Even veteran units get tired out by constantly swinging a sword. Most ancient wargamers are utterly clueless as to the sheer physical exhaustion involved in swinging a sword at a man in armour, People who fence competitively will have some idea. Better yet, fence while wearing a breastplate, and carrying a 20 lb shield, and running full speed occasionally across a football field, all while literally peeing yor pants in terror.
3. Ancient combat involved massive discrepancies between trained and untrained men. DBA decides that weapon type is the only determinant. Veteran vs Levy was far more important than spear versus pilum, for instance.

Basic Impetus,Great game!

I actually ended up getting sword and spear.

I'm doing a solo game today with thracians vs Macedonians. We will see how it goes.

I also emailed Simon (bigredbat) and got his rules. It will be interesting trying out all of these rules!

Thanks
Austin

CCA combat resolution with DBA command pips might make for an excellent game.

Desert Fox – yes, it goes all right, actually :)

Desert Fox, how would you adjust "combat outcomes" from DBA like fleeing vs recoiling?

I prefer to think of CC:A with DBA movement system (including PIPs). Only trouble is DBA pretty much forces you to stretch out in one thin line (no concept of depth really) and then back compensates yo by allowing that long, thin line to wheel. I can't really see wheeling at an army group level being representative of anything remotely historical. Wheeling should only be possible across a fairly short frontage, say 3 or 4 units?

Also, I think the flag system (retreats) in CC:A is a bit problematic. Plus facing is rather tricky as well, since if you're going to penalise units for getting flanked, then you have to place restrictions on movement, like straight ahead only, with wheels on a corner. I find that kind of movement system really a pain in ancients. I think DBA moves, with limited wheels in groups, plus flags = retreat one base depth each, then you might have something.

Also the ZoC system in DBA is a nod to the fact that you have one of the freest movement systems in ancient minis gaming. I'd start with DBA-style movement, since it is so effortless, and build from there.