"Treatment of "Girl Gamers"" Topic

This interesting documentary on YouTube – youtu.be/vJFi7iGK6P8 – talks about the problems faced by female gamers participating in online gaming. (Warning: because the documentary plays actual clips of male gamers taunting female gamers, some of the language is coarse and offensive.)

Do female gamers in miniature wargaming face any of these same problems? Particularly in the forums and Private Messages on TMP or other hobby websites?

I think her is a bit of an "Old Boys Club" atmosphere to say the least. I know I would not want to explain the "Needs More Boobies" board and running joke meme here on TMP to either my wife or my daughter.

It's hard enough to get a girl to play when 90% is figures of men, wars fought by men, over policies made by men.

When they made the LotR movies they changed a male character into a female, and then gave the female characters many invented scenes. Otherwise it was a boys club the whole way.

I think a lot of he miniatures of female characters are blatantly sexist in a way that figures of males aren't.

Other than the "she games? Marry her!" jokes I haven't seen a lot of abuse directed at female gamers. The ones I know generally tend to be more skilled than he men. I know I for one tend to forget the gender of the person across he gaming table from me, at least while the game is being played.

While I worked for a games company with a high street presence, there were only two females that participated, both were beter at the games than the teenage boys they faught against. I certainly dont recall them getting any more abuse (friendly banter) than anyone else.

I have attended more than one games club and there have never been any female members, having never done any online gaming i cannot really coment.

jon

Other than the "she games? Marry her!" jokes I haven't seen a lot of abuse directed at female gamers.

If "she's a keeper" is abuse, I have apparently been misinformed all these years.

I've not seen anyone abuse a female gamer verbally or otherwise at any of my local conventions.

I've also not seen it first hand online, but I'm not surprised that it can happen. Just like any other form of communication on the net, people in computer gaming take the fat that the is no direct con tact to heart and are willing to be far more brazen then in real life.

The anonymity of video games encourages more offecnsive behaviors.

With miniature wargames being face to face, & usually in a public atmosphere, I think the abusive idiots would be much more tame.

Well there's plenty of casual sexism going around in the hobby (especially amongst the older members). Look at many conversations on the boards that mention wives and you'll see examples of it. Blatant, loud misogyny is not often in evidence amongst wargamers.

With miniature wargames being face to face, & usually in a public atmosphere, I think the abusive idiots would be much more tame.

But can they be tactful? Are they still condescending?

It is all relative.

Most females I know would find TMP link offensive (well in that pathetic 'childish/offensive' zone which makes blokey activities not worth bothering with).

I see no signs that TMP is the sort of forum where this kind of problem can be discussed sensibly. But my experience is that, in person, wargamers are generally much more sensible and socialised. I think the majority are good sorts and the idiot minority is braver when they have their computers to hide behind …

Phil

People get abused in any social environment.

Those who have not spent their life wrapped in cotton wool deal with it; those who have are not worth worrying about.

Does it happen more online – probably. does it happen more in miniatures games; I doubt it but you could probably find some groups of louts who are exceptionally offensive. My advice would be to leave them to fester in their own soup and find more congenial company – certainly how I would handle it.

I think if you need to explain the needs more boobies board, you probably shouldnt bother.

While not abusive per se, the atmosphere around here can get pretty insulting at times.

The "Best Wargame for Meeting Women?" topic was a prime example. Basic enough question, answers immediately started taking a wrong turn.
TMP link

A few of the replies weren't belittling.

Dont really know. THere dont seem to be many girl gamers in my parts. A girl I worked with took up Warmachine recently. I met up with her at my buddie's game store for their Warmachine open night. The guys there were very friendly and patient with here learning the rules.

My wife occasionally tags along when I'm at conventions. Even though she probably would have been content to just watch, she's been invited to join in on games by a gamemaster many times, so my (and her I presume) experiences have been positive.

On the other hand, several years ago there was an Omaha comic/game store she went in (maybe even alone) and the staff basically said "We don't serve your kind here." I think she was trying to buy her monthly issue of Witchblade :)

In any games I've played where there were women gaming, the language tended to be a bit better and the gaming less intense. Mostly the women were beginners who needed a lot of encouragement and coaching, this necessitated the men who know the rules to be better behaved, and patient.

wow – after watching the video and hearing the comments made by male gamers I was staggered to say the least.

Regardless of gender that kind of behaviour is unacceptable. If I spoke like that to anyone I would expect to have teeth knocked out of my mouth.

I would suggest to those male video gamers to grow up, turn their gaming device off and actually get a life.

Have you seen anyone get upset when they were beat by a female gamer in a tournament?

I find that people tend to treat the few women gamers with more respect and like wrgmr1 says, the atmosphere is better than normal (although the people I've gamed with through the years have mostly been decent guys anyway).

As for things being offensive towards women, that's always in the eye of the beholder. What some here say is offensive to women is hardly any worse than the jokes that are told about men either by women or by society. Ever watch TV commercials that have men and women in them? Who ends up being the clown/butt of the joke?

In the CMG forums I was active in, the female gamers were welcomed and respected. Online.
The few times i saw them at a tournament of convention it was different. One girl that came to a weekly game i ran at a FLGS, got hit on by the manager of the game store often. It was witnessed by her BF one time. Last time we saw her. Saw a shame as she was getting to be a competitive player of the game. As my group is very competitive, and thrive on it, we were upset with him for driving off a good player.

BTW she was very pleasant on the eyes. I guess most of the guys didn't mind helping her learn the game if they were going to lose to an attractive woman.

So in my experience, woman are treated with better respect online, then in person. Maybe it's the anonymity of online. Unless they have a distinctive female handle, I would doubt they would be treated any worse or better than anyone else online.

>"We don't serve your kind here."

Lol! That is very funny.

Virtually no women will be interested in miniature gaming. There is no need to worry about making the hobby more woman friendly. Contrary to what you may have been brainwashed to believe, it is OK to take up hobbies that appeal mainly to men.

BTW, I got 60 girls to sign up to the Sussex University Wargames and Role players club when we had a stand one freshers fair. Four of them actually turned up to play games, and two became regulars. I had to lie to them to get them to join, saying we were mainly a social club with a background of games to bring people together as a common activity. I amazed the other gamers in the club.

> Have you seen anyone get upset when they were beat by a female gamer in a tournament?

Yes (IWF New Orleans) … no names etc. Not 'nasty' upset, but yes.

Phil

Most of the female gamers I know are into the RPG and/or LARP side, a fair number of boardgamers, with a few CCG players and only one miniatures gamer. I see similar ratios at conventions and in stores.

I would never treat a female gamer like that. As a matter of fact, I would have said something about manners to the the others who were being so discourteous and rude.

Of course, I was brought up to treat a woman like a lady, regardless of how she acts, and have brought my daughters up to expect to be treated like that. They have ssen their father take umbrage at disrespect directed towards the fairer sex. Totally unacceptable. I have lost at Risk/Stratego, etc., to my wife and daughters, and don't like losing, but never act like an idiot.

I'm surprised at the level of kitchen-based insults. Americans (by the accents) of *either* gender are unlikely to know how to cook. In my own household, She Who Must Be Obeyed is not allowed in the kitchen and I'm not allowed to be late with lunch (she put herself in the emergency room with one of the bigger knives on an occasion when I was off playing soldier). Big thing I noticed is that they were all really young – at 14 they haven't learned that there are limits on the smack talk. Children are stupid – that's why they require adult supervision.

Have you seen anyone get upset when they were beat by a female gamer in a tournament?

We played a pick up game of battletech one year at Gen Con. One of the players was a well endowed woman in her early twentys wearing a low cut tank top. Every time she bet down to move a fig or roll dice she gave us a nice view of her ample cleavage. THe most memorable part of the game. other than her ample cleavage, was when she assaulted my buddie's mech and in a lucky blow, crushed the cockpit. We still laugh about it when we bring up Battletech. Best Battletech game ever.

Chuck

I, myself, have never seen any women insulted or treated badly in any game I have run or played in. But it's a big world out there, with lots of types of gamers- unfortunately, some @ssholes. It's a pity, we should be welcoming to any new/old gamers whatever their gender, race,background or beliefs.

I would never treat a female gamer like that. As a matter of fact, I would have said something about manners to the the others who were being so discourteous and rude.

Of course, I was brought up to treat a woman like a lady, regardless of how she acts, and have brought my daughters up to expect to be treated like that. They have ssen their father take umbrage at disrespect directed towards the fairer sex.

Well said that man!

Stay away from Xbox Live. That will redefine what offensive is for anyone.

That was very sad to hear.

Pot, Kettle, Black
Mirror:
TMP link

Are they still condescending?

Examples:

organizied by hysterical period

Don't call chicks "broads", they hate it.
Call them shorties.

More boobs, more boobs.
No wait,I think that was brains,yea thats it, more brains.
Well you can't have both.

A matter of degree, to be sure;
but most assuredly of a kind.

My wife tends to get stared at when she is a vistor at trade shows and when she there with her business as a trader.

A fair bit of the staring tends to be aimed below her neck and above her waist.

Ever watch TV commercials that have men and women in them? Who ends up being the clown/butt of the joke?

Indeed, TV adverts are rife with sexism aimed at both men and women.

I play online games and you do get a fair sprinkling of Female gamers (real ones, you can tell by their voices on Ventrillo, not just the avatar).

In Roleplaying you get them as well (and as a GM always happy to have them) and I have seen an odd one at shows etc.

However you do seem to get a good sprinkling of Female painters and collectors.

However at Rapier we have the stand the female gamers love, and the other halves dragged around, you see it on their fac4es this vacant look of 'is he actually worth this?' and then they glimpse our stand and either a smile, a chuckle or a look of total incomprehension passes their faces.

But we make sales to Ladies that no other stand can tempt…

As a female miniatures gamer my own experience has generally been positive. No trouble getting games, no lewd or offensive comments.

However, some of the male gamers don't seem to have grasped the fact that I am female (I will admit to being slightly butch in appearance – no make up, shortish hair, wear jeans, tall, visible tattoos) and they use male pronouns when referring to me, even when I am wearing tight tops (*cough* perhaps I do need more boobies? I'm not very well stacked). I think it's more due to the fact that female wargamers are pretty rare and not that they are being deliberately offensive.

Although I've never seen any form of verbal abuse against female gamers, I know of many male gamers who would prefer women not to be present at gaming activities.

The main reason is because gaming night is seen as a social activity 'with the guys'. Presence of women alters the atmosphere, and alters the function of the social event.

There is a social need for men to hang out amongst themselves from time to time – so you can talk about manly things without being censored or worrying about a backchannel :-). For some, this is hanging out the bar, going to the football game or going to the sports club. For us, it's miniature wargaming.

I guess it depends on whether you go to the gaming club for gaming only, or for hanging out with (male) friends that happen to game at the same time.

The main reason is because gaming night is seen as a social activity 'with the guys'. Presence of women alters the atmosphere, and alters the function of the social event.

Valid Point!

Many examples (including, I suspect: those I highlighted above)
have a very different contextual significance when
analysed within male bonding/banter protocols
vice more general useage. P'raps it oughtn't: but s'truth.

Have you seen anyone get upset when they were beat by a female gamer in a tournament?

May not mean anything – I've seen people get upset when they lose to a man or (even worse !) a boy.

No one posted this yet?

YouTube link

The statements made by those playing the games are shameful.

I can only think that those saying such things must have very limited contact with other human beings on a face to face level. Mostly communicate though electronic means.

They possibly have a severe inferiority complex in general that must be overwhelming to them when in the presence of women. It projects itself as anger and hostility towards women when they contact them from what they feel is the safe distance of electronic conversation.

It is very sad reflection upon their self esteem and embarrassing to them in general. This shows me a great reason why I don't play Xbox on line.

I love playing games, all kinds of games, with women. Read into that what you want. They are always welcome on, or should I say AT, my game tables.

Angel Barracks – I LOVE that song and video. The one they do of zombies at Christmas is great. I would love to play games with the Team Unicorn group.

YouTube link

Interesting video that says much about the level of maturity of some electronic gamers, especially when they can hide behind the internet.

Reminds me of the line that what come out of a persons mouth is what is in their heart.

As for table top gamers, I find most are good to female gamers. My only negative is the comments some make regarding how "hot" a female gamer may be and how they were distracted from the game, but did care about the outcome because they enjoyed the eye candy. In some cases they drone on about what she was wearing and her dimensions, etc. While mild complared to the comments in the video, they do speak to a certain base level about how we see females and female gamers.

So, when we are gaming, are we gaming with a person or an object? If a person they should be seen in that light. If an object to be ogled, what does that say about the person doing it?

I am glad to see TasminP speak up and have a generally positive experience and I would honestly like to hear from other women that show up on TMP as well because the question really is addressed to them.

We – as males – can answer but our point of view is not the same. I know I would thump anyone who was offensive to Danielle or any other female gamer I know, BUT I would do that regardless for ANY gamer I know. Like is too short to be disrespected for a game.

I do know that most "problems" are really irritants and I know this only because I have Danielle tell me after the game or convention is over. One of her biggest complaints is having male gamers instantly take over for her if she is a second too slow to look something up or have her actually hesitate to think about a move and once again, male gamers will flock to "help" her move her troops "correctly". That drives her crazy and I have to admit now that I know, I see it all too often.

With Danielle, she will simply not game whenever she perceives the crowd to be not worth mingling with and that is all about the attitudes and gaming scruples of the players. Some, regardless of the age, still act like children. It is their loss as she is a great player and gamer. Yet even I have to admit that most games she stays away from are ones I should have as well!
Larry

"Have you seen anyone get upset when they were beat by a female gamer in a tournament?"

No, but I have seen a girls boyfriend get upset at HER when I beat his girl friend.

In Magic's heyday I entered a tournament, and my first pairing was against this guys girlfriend.

This guy had made her deck, a very simple design, and I was a VERY good player and my deck outclassed her deck by far.

Well, she was cute and being a gamer I was single so I took it easy on her.

Her boyfriend having a "by" watched the game and started berating her when I started winning.

He was a REAL jerk to her when I won.

As luck would have it I got to play him in the next round.

He yelled at her and grabbed the Magic deck from her. He then told her "I will show you how to play this deck!"

So I did not take it easy on him and utterly destroyed him in a few turns, and he was out of the tournament before anyone else that round.

Needless to say he left in a huff, and I never saw him again.

What a Jerk!

I've never ran into any flack at shows. I've noticed no difference in the way I get treated, as opposed to Shawn, when running a demo game. Or when playing a game for that matter.

If I'd had my caffeine yet I'd probably say more. Lucky you!

Nice. Wish I played CGGs

Just got a reply from Danielle with a few more items or irritants.

- The Ignore. Usually among older gamers. They completely ignore her as if she wasn't even in the room.
- Assuming tactical ignorance. Games who will tell her every little detail as though she has never played a game in her life then continue to "coax" her to set things up or move them where they told her to, even if it wasn't a smart choice and she saw better and mentioned as such.
- The pedestal. Treating her as though she is some sacrosanct item instead of a gamer there to have fun.

LOL! I am sure more will be coming as she warms up to the subject! Danielle and I have gone to at least one convention every year for the last 25 years and we've gamed in Germany, the UK and of course here in the USA. She did point out that one of her best gaming experiences was in London where we were invited in and she was immediately treated as one of the group. Nothing special, just equal.
Larry

My wife is a boardgamer. About half of my boardgaming friends are women, actually. Depending on the game and mood of the night, friendly insults fly around and some of these get sexist. It goes both ways. Women (when you get to know them) are not much different than men, to see some of the comments here makes one think they are more sensitive -- talk about sexist.

Online video gamers are notoriously abusive towards one another. I really don't think it's meant to be anything other than trash talk, it's just taken to a level the rest of us don't go to.

I've gamed vs. the ladies from time to time,one being a 1st grade schoolteacher,another a teenager,and believe me,they have the stuff for the game. In Aerodrome,I've also been the 1st kill for a few "Valkyries"(even making one of 'em, an ace pilot).

I have never seen it happen at any of my tables.
Now I have had guys ogling the goth chick across from them (and keep the language clean), but other than that…

The main reason is because gaming night is seen as a social activity 'with the guys'. Presence of women alters the atmosphere, and alters the function of the social event.

Agree absolutely. I adore my wife and admire her greatly as she battles leukaemia but when I'm gaming I don't want to have to watch my language. Not that I swear like a trooper, but I think the F word might have slipped out last week when the USS Miami, which had been reduced to matchwood, sank the CSS Virginia with its last shot on a 1 in 36 chance!

Ever watch TV commercials that have men and women in them? Who ends up being the clown/butt of the joke?

Yes, the depiction of men in many adverts is a disgrace. Most women would be offended by them if the situation was reversed and rightly so. These ads don't help the cause of women's equality, they just offend men. But they aren't designed for anything other than to sell things.

Personally I'm not a great believer in "chivalry". Women's equality put an end to that IMO and they can't have it both ways but I DO believe in showing politeness, respect and courtesy to people of BOTH sexes. Being rude to a female gamer isn't right. Being rude to ANY gamer isn't right either.

Well said Alan York.

My work schedule keeps me from playing games on a regular basis, so I'm not the most accomplished gamer. However, I do like to paint & collect figures. When I do get the opportunity, I tend to pick games that seem to have a good story element or games that are set in a period in which I'm interested.

Other gamers have always treated me politely. There are a few that roll their eyes in a kind of "oh great, she's going to muck up the game" way. But you run into those guys in other aspects of life as well. That just makes it a little sweeter when you do beat them.

I have a girlfriend whose 16-yr-old son is a video gamer, who she allowed to drop out of school with promises of he'd go "Columbine" if he stayed in school & promised to get a G.E.D. & a job. Anyway, he's pasty-white, over weight, stays in his room & plays on-line video games all day. I've never heard such vile language directed toward other gamers.

Oh & he smells quite "gamey".

But back on topic, no one has ever been rude to me at a game convention. I don't believe in "chivalry" either. A businesswoman, who I admired, once told me that the whole concept of "chivalry" was a code of behavior of a superior toward an inferior & that she was not inferior. Politeness & respect goes both ways to both genders. The verse from the Tao Te Ching: "Give no respect, get no respect."

Yes, the depiction of men in many adverts is a disgrace. Most women would be offended by them if the situation was reversed and rightly so. These ads don't help the cause of women's equality, they just offend men. But they aren't designed for anything other than to sell things

Quite agree, and more worryingly, children's TV here in the UK frequently has the male characters acting as some kind of imbecilic buffoons. What kind of message is that sending out to the kids?

As to the main point. If you are bought up as a gentleman then you don't harangue a Lady. These people are not gentlemen.