"Aren't "Aliens" Predatory, And "Predators" Really Aliens?" Topic

There's talk of a new movie:

TMP link

But really guys . . .

They should have been a little more creative when they picked those movie titles or, at the very least, when they started mentioning them in the films.

Dan
PS. I know the the "Aliens" are described as "xenomorphs", but that's just another description and not a name.
TMP link

Aliens aren't predators. I don't remember seeing them ever eat a victim. They are more like henchmen for rapists.

And the Predators while aliens aren't really predators. They are more like arrogant (and clueless) big game hunters. Rich executives on weekend trips to murder helpless animals for kicks with all the expensive toys they bought at the hunting store.

Judging by the films they aren't particularly good at it, either, as their trips always seem to end with fatalities for the hunters. The living embodiment of "All the gear and no idea."

I guess I always equated predators with really determined hunters.

Anyway, the "Xenomorph" larvae are predatory parasites (nourished by the host), aren't they?

link

Dan
PS. Child predators don't usually eat children, right?

The Aliens are predators, but not (as far as shown) carnivores – they prey on other creatures as part of their reproductive cycle. What they eat is unknown, and probably implausible in the extreme – look at the growth rate of the chestburster in the first movie, which bloats from tiny larva to hulking adult overnight without benefit of ingesting anything that we know about. It didn't even eat the danged cat, which proves it's not from Melmac at least.

Debatable whether anything with acid for blood would even find human tissue a useful source of nutrients anyway. That biochemistry must be pretty weird, even for a critter that's probably a geneered bioweapon.

Child predators? Well, if you are talking figuratively then all bets are off. Anything perceived as a threat to anything else is a predator by that standard.

I forgot about the cute little baby ones. Parasitic gestation resulting in the death of the host? Is that predation, technically? I dunno, I'm not a scientist.

P.S. Thanks for the link. link

True predation is all about eating the thing, surely? (Remember, I'm not a scientist). So when talking about preying on them as part of the reproductive cycle we are now talking figuratively again, rather than scientifically.

Yeah? No? I dunno. Oh well, never mind. It's only pretend anyway.

…Or is it?

The aliens are parasitoids, not true parasites. They spend only are part of their life cycle as parasites, like the way some wasps do.

Well to be fair when Dan O'Bannon came up with the idea of Alien he was going for a science fiction horror or thriller because Dark Star was a financial failure as a science fiction comedy. (Love the cheesy movies btw) O'Banno was perhaps not too concerned with how the alien fed. He was looking for what would be a cool idea on film. Sadly most science fiction movies do not bear close scientific scrutiny. There are some exceptions but in the end the director of a film is going to go for what they think is a good story and will sell rather than worry if something is scientifically accurate.

The alien acid blood is a device to drive the story. "Oh my gods it has acid blood! We can't just blow the thing to bits because we are in outer space and a breach in the ship from the acid blood will cause us all to die!" So our characters now are forced by the plot device to have to hunt the critter before it might cause damage to the ship instead of wisely staying all together armed with flamethrowers and wait for the to come to them. Hence the classic movie plot line of knocking off each character one by one until you are left with the hero/heroine who finally triumphs.

Plynkes, I take a little exception to your description of the 'Predators'. Rich kid hunters wouldn't worry about killing pregnant female prey that was practically handed to them ( See second movie ), nor would they be necessarily clever enough to work out what was wrong with their equipment and work out how to deal with it.

As for the 'Aliens', they seem more likely to be like an ant nest in scope, so perhaps they are scavenging omnivores that evolved on a very hostile world, as some of the comics versions have speculated.

The impregnated human is the host, the alien is a parasite
John Hurt was not digested

I bet Dan O'Bannion nearly died from an overdose of creative joy when he came up with that title. Its minimalism at its best. What's this movie about? A scary alien. What do we call it? Alien. How do we make sure people know its a scary alien? Well, the word "Alien" doesn't imply friendly, but if you add the tagline "In space, no one can hear you scream." then…you have the best package for a scary alien movie ever.

I think Predator is called Predator because it sounds better than Hunter and Alien was taken.

Plynkes,

Too bad you took my dictionary reference that way. But, unlike the implication in your link, I was not being patronizing.

You were getting technical with definitions, so I figured a reference might help.

Dan

Well I guess it all depends on whether we are using the word predator in a strict zoological sense, or just the vague wider figurative meanings. It's pointless arguing about it if we don't establish that.

If the latter, then yes, they are predators. So are child molesters, school bullies, Somali pirates, big corporations and lawyers, none of which eat their victims. No argument from me there.

But true predators in a scientific sense? I'm not so sure.

Fair enough.

Dan

Responding to Plynkes original response;

Generally the Predators seen in the films (Predator I, II & AVP I) are depicted as "Young bloods" been sent to earth to do combat and earn thier spurs.

With that in mind one Predator takes out two squads of highly trained special forces soldiers before being taken down himself in the original film and in Predator II one Predator takes out two well armed street gangs and a host of cops and CIA types. Not bad work for an adolecent.

I admit the three Predators really sucked in the first AVP film though!

Further note; Would it not be considered Predatory for a parasitoid to stalk thier potential host?

Regards

Chris

I bet Dan O'Bannion nearly died from an overdose of creative joy when he came up with that title. Its minimalism at its best. What's this movie about? A scary alien. What do we call it? Alien.

Just be glad they didn't go with the original working title "Starbeast."

It's just my perception of the Predators, I suppose. Once that idea of them as rich weekending posers popped into my mind I couldn't get rid of it, and I've never been able to see the Predators as 'cool' since. I imagine a bunch of planets littered with their beer cans.

The useless, fat Predators in AVP didn't help, either, you are right. :)

Gold; the image I now have circulating round my mind of a Predator swilling down beer as he hunts big game around the galaxy is priceless!

I felt the "Wolf" Predator character from AVP Requiem restored some of the Predators glory and heroism after the poor show in the original AVP.

Chris

Would it not be considered Predatory for a parasitoid to stalk thier potential host?

No, that is an aspect of parasitism, which includes the manner of obtaining the host.

When predatory behavior is referred to biologically, as opposed to culturally, it means eating other animals. The cultural uses of it derive from the biological use, and they are basically metaphorical.

How about this, no matter what their background history and zoology is, THEIR GOING TO KILL YOU!!!!!

Hmm. Don't most parasites feed off their hosts?

Dan

Aliens aren't predators? not true at all

In AvP 2 at the high school pool a alien is feeding on a boy it killed just before its killed by the predator.

also in the books and comics there are feedings.
they dont always take you alive.

Hmm. Don't most parasites feed off their hosts?

"Feeding off of" as opposed to "feeding on" is actually one of the reasons that we have different terms for "parasites" and "predators."

Species interaction is something that is usually taught in Bio II, you might want to see if you can pick up a Bio II textbook, which further describes the differences.

So are aliens parasites and Predators just sportsmen?

I thought that everyone knew about the Movie… But, then I've got all kinda links to trade zines from when I was younger and worked in Hollywood. None of the trade zines give you much in the way of pictures or info that would be interesting to a gaming site, just stuff about whose directing or producing, what new gizmos they are using in filming or special effects, and other dry info.

Still, I can't wait to see what kind of Character Topher Grace plays, and Lawrence Fishburn supposedly plays an older soldier who has been trapped in the Predator's Game Preserve for many years, eluding capture or the kill. It looks like a really good character for him, and you know that he is going to have a glorious death scene, taking out many, many Predators so that the Hero can then Save the day… Or, he might do a face/heel turn, and turn out to be a plant by the Predators to make their game better prey…

Oh, and BTW, a Predator is anything that Preys upon something else.

A parasite is a predator, as the parasite preys upon the host.

A hunter is a predator, as they track prey and kill it (not always to eat it).

Both the Alien (Xenomorph) and the Predator are both aliens (they are both extra-terrestrial and both are not related to the same homework, which means that humans, Xenomorphs and Predators (with a capital 'P') are all alien life forms in relation to any other in the triad.

The Predators (again, Capital 'P') also have a highly evolved system whereby the select their prey. Notice that they do not prey upon the helpless, or any prey that is perceived as being initially helpless or beneath them. They want a good hunt, in other words.

The Xenomorphs, on the other hand, prey upon anything that is within their targeted band of genetic material suitable for a host for more Xenomorphs (one of the comics gives an explanation for their body plan and how they target their prey based upon the type of body in which they were gestated – I also talked with HR Giger back in 1985 about his conceptions of the Xenomorph, and they tended to jive with what was later in the comic… I get the feeling that the author probably had a very similar conversation with both Giger and O'Bannon)

Well gaming wise there's always room for anything, from what little information on the movie as I understand it is, top hunters and assassins are plucked from earth with the tools of their trade and dropped on a Predator jungle game preserve. Might account for the thousands of people that just go missing every year.

Predator: 1. any carnivorous animal. 2. a predatory person or thing.

Predation: a relationship between two species of animal in a community, in which one hunts, kills and eats the other.

Parasite: 1. an animal or plant that lives in or on another (the host) from which it obtains nourishment.

From those definitions I would say the chestburster stage is a parasite, while the adult Alien is a predator (assuming it does eat the creatures it kills -- it must have some source of nutrition, after all.)

The Predator technically isn't a predator of humans but a hunter. They probably hunt and eat animals though.

But what about the Predalien?!?!?!?!?

No such thing. Fanboy crossover BS doesn't count.

If I remember correctly from what I read in the book tie in, the Alien raided a food storage locker. Could be wrong its yonks since i read the novel.

You remembered correctly.

Or….this may sound crazy….they could just be really cool movie monsters :)

Also the whole Aliens taking on the DNA of their hosts was never part of the original concept of the alien. That was somethign that ended up getting stuffed in by the wacky mob that ruined Alien 3.

According to Gieger, it was part of their conception, or at least it was in his mind…

It was part of Gieger's vision but was edited out of the original movie version of Alien. If I recall correctly, the original idea was to have it be more of a infection/transformation thing rather than the parasitic embrio thing.

Personally I don"t like the idea of Aliens eating people but…

You can clearly see the Alien eating a prisoner in Alien 3.

I did not get the feeling that the Alien was eating a prisoner… I am not sure what it was doing with it.

As others have said in various responses above:
Alien juvenile: parasitic life stage
Alien adult: predatory life stage
Predator: Undisclosed feeding behavior (although I haven't seen the latest movie).

As for the DNA transfer bit, it is far fetched in biological terms, but strangely attractive as a concept. Most complex paraisitic organisms which inhabit their hosts have very specific relationships in terms of which species and even which organs they inhabit at different life stages. The concept of an alien parasite that could alternate between hosts of different species, let alone hosts of different metabolic evolutions, is hard to imagine.

However, I am one of those in the camp of "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." After all, no one would have believed you if, 35 years ago, you had told someone that there are cancers caused by viruses, bacteria that could swap drug resistance between species, and diseases caused by bits of protein.

On that last point, there is some evidence that even within our own earth-bound ecology, DNA and RNA are not the only materials that can code for self replicating life. I am not aware of anything more complex than prions that are coded by protein. But a species with genetic coding in protein might be more susceptible to genetioc crossover from prey. All this is crazy talk and way out there, but that is what sci fi is for after all.