"Prussia 1806-Reasons for the Collapse" Topic

Dear Big Al,

It appears that "10th Marines" can't discuss any military event pertaining to German-speaking people without adducing "evidence" [sic] from the 20th century – nor can he discuss Russia without sharing little nuggets about the "reds" of the Soviet Union.
It is a pattern I have seen across many theads here, and even on other fora.

Yours in firm research,
Chuvak

Interesting,

Barthold's first visit to this forum is 18th January 2010 and does nothing but ridicule, insult and name call.

And then we have Chavak who's first visit to TMP is 19th November 2009. He also leaves a calling card, "Yours in firm research", a lot like someone else did.

It is amazing how two accounts have been started up in the last couple of months or few days and their sole purpose, including that of Steven Smith seems only to attack other posters for having an opinion or not agreeing with Stephen Summerfield or their notion of history….why is that?

I just want to know how a forum such as this one allows posters like this to continue to attack, ridicule and insult others for simply debating a subject as per the rules of the forum?

Please Bill, can you enlighten me on this, they seem to be getting away with it as if it is condoned…

Shane

That was a very old joke in the early 1970's. Probably long before.

There where a lot more French than Prussians in 1806 that's my take.

Dear Kevin
Just to go back to the period and away from the racial profiling. The Prussians/Germans won many campaigns but lost their last two wars. Each Allied HQ in 1813 had Prussian Staff officers that kept in constant contact with the others and permitted greater co-ordination to follow the Reichenbach plan that ultimately worked.

It should be noted that the four Prussian Corps in the Netherlands were expendable being made up of over 50% troops from the new territories. The Guard and the battle hardened troops were still in Brandenburg. Therefore Prussia could claim the lead without jepardising its position.

Gneisnau staff-work was efficient.
1. Chose Wavre that was within a march of the right wing of Wellington.
2. Organised a retirement of a defeated army back there.
3. IV Corps lead the march as it was the only undamaged Corps.
4. Marching across the front of an enemy was difficult and dangerous. Why not retire back to Prussia?
5. The Prussian deployed from march and immediately attacked defeating the French at Plancenoit.
6. Organised the pursuit of the French to Paris while Wellington followed slowly.

French staff work
1. A Corps spent its time between Ligny and Quatre Bras. Either could have changed the course of the battle.
2. Inconsistent and controdictory orders.
3. Late start of the battle.
4. Inability to co-ordinate attacks. Insufficient cavalry support in the infantry assault.
5. No horse artillery to support the cavalry attack.
6. The staff is supposed to keep the commander aware of the options and not support the delusions.

If Berthier was a clerk then what was Soult. The 100 days has so much conflicting orders and dispatches. How can an army function with a complete change in the higher command barely a few days before with the use of Ney let alone Grouchy being lost to the Heavy Cavalry command.

Stephen

Stephen,

Berthier wasn't a 'clerk' as has been shown. Soult probably made more mistakes in four days with Nord than Berthier made in 18 years.

There was no 'racial profiling' in any of my postings. You should be careful what you say in that regard. Do I have to remind you, too, what the 'ad hominem' fallacy in historic research is? I certainly hope not.

Sincerely,
K

Hi Shane,

The 'usual suspects' will do what they want. They have clearly demonstrated that they cannot logically argue on the merits of the discussion and references, so personal attacks are what happens. Perhaps if we just ignore them, they'll go away.

Sincerely,
Kevin

aye, very true, it is sad that they cannot enter a debate in an amicable and respectful manner. The consistency of their style of response underlies serious personal issues they have with respect for others and a deep set feeling of self importance which is completely unfounded.

What annoys me more is that this could be stopped but nothing ever gets done about it.

Stephen,

It is very easy to make up lists to suit the concept, point or idea you are trying to prove if you have an agenda no matter what the subject is. Lists could just as easily be made up to prove the opposite by researching problems, issues and faults the Prussians committed during that campaign as a negative list while designing a positive list for the French by reporting their successes in turn.

Sorry but showing lists like this does not prove one way or the other which sides staff work was superior.

Shane

"What annoys me more is that this could be stopped but nothing ever gets done about it."

OK – you've stopped me.

Bye-bye.

Chuvak

Chuvak wrote:

Chuvak 23 Jan 2010 5:29 p.m. PST
Dear Big Al,

It appears that "10th Marines" can't discuss any military event pertaining to German-speaking people without adducing "evidence" [sic] from the 20th century – nor can he discuss Russia without sharing little nuggets about the "reds" of the Soviet Union.
It is a pattern I have seen across many theads here, and even on other fora.

Yours in firm research,
Chuvak

Sorry mate but check this link out (amongst others) and draw your own conclusions: TMP link

and this part really gets me:

It is a pattern I have seen across many theads here, and even on other fora.

for this poster to say this after being a member for two months tells me he has been around for a great deal longer than that…

and…

Yours in firm research,

coincidence? maybe, but to me it smells of a Freudian slip…

and the fact that he addresses it to:

Dear Big Al,

does that mean he likes to talk to himself?

Yours, in firm research,
Shane

TMP link

Why do I think that the trail I follow with this material is so often merely a matter of walking in your footprints ?

:-)

You have "Bearded the Bard", Sir! I feel those footsteps coming ever so close. <;^}

Sometimes we can make the invisible become visible.

Keep walking, my friend, for I could use the cooling breeze as you pass me by. <;^}

I think I am going to be sick…

hey Steve, down here we call that, "pissing in each others pockets"

lol, you have no idea do you steve?

sorry steve, I hope what I said does not make you weep?

@Shane

In case those discussion get "nasty" – why don't you do anything against it – by just contributing something worhtwhile to the discussion instead of attacking persons.

A good way – which I recommend is to

you are on my list as well as KK – I just cannot – like Napoleon – waste my time.

VW,

Before I began to fight back I hit the complain button several times to Bill but to no avail. It seems he does not wish to intervene when he could have stopped it at the first insult. But I dare say now that I have fought back Bill will respond and DH all of us. I hope this was not his intention, if so I then understand the way things work around here. For I fear that he prefers to capture both sides and DH them instead of stopping the rot as soon as it begins.

VW, I have no fight with you, I would hope we at least could remain amicable. All I want is for them to desist, once they do, I will also. Until then I will fight to defend myself. If that means attacking them in return then shall be it. If you look back into this thread I contributed a great deal to the postings, surely you can see that?

As you can see clearly, they started this crap on me for daring to disagree with Summerfield, as if I am not allowed an opinion, go back to page 5 and re-read how it all started. Who are they to declare validity of opinions in such an insulting and rude way? Why is it I am the one who must back down? would it not be fitting to ask them to drop it before telling me I must? did I provoke this attack? no, I am responding to them and being criticized for fighting back by you.

No Aussie worth his salt would back down from a fight when insulted like I have, trust me.

Just look at these three threads alone to see how they attack and insult, but does anyone ask them to stop attacking and insulting? no…..no one !!

TMP link
TMP link
TMP link

I WANT TO KNOW WHY THEY, ESPECIALLY SMITH, GETS AWAY WITH IT EVERY TIME???

Shane

Why? Maybe Shane, because when a thread has deteriorated to the stage where this one has, most people have already taken their hats and coats and left- the sound of one hand clapping and all that.

Gotta run, the taxi is waiting.

Is it not obvious who started this? why not ask the antagonists to do the bowing down eh?

It makes me sick that they get away with this rot every single time!!! They are really big men when they can hide behind their computer screens…

"A yawn (from the Middle English yanen, an alteration of yonen or yenen, which in turn comes from the Old English geonian, is a reflex of simultaneous inhalation of air and stretching of the eardrums, followed by exhalation of breath."

Shane,

I've sent you two emails and both of them bounced back. Could you send one I have some material for you.

Sincerely,
K

Hans-Karl,

A well known fact that you do not like Napoleon yet you re-enact with the 9e Legere why not a Prussian regiment or are you ashamed of them (The Prussians)

Wagram

The only one afflicted around here is you, you don't seem to be content with acting within the rules of the forum. How bout you take your poor social networking skills elsewhere?

p.s. Wagram, you've just set yourself up as a target with smith once again, I respect that.

Kevin,

Sorry about that, I recently changed my ISP providers and got a much better deal, I will send you an email with my new email address shortly.

Shane

Shane,

I don't think there will be any problems, Hans Karl always amazes me with his attitude to the French and yet he re-enacts them. Must be a bit ashamed of the Prussian Army of the period.

Wagram

lol, or was hounded out of a Prussian regiment for some reason…

Shane don't take too hard on Stephen, clearly he has not read your rules (or your past posts) that demonstrates you know full well what a Prussian Fusilier unit was capable of. Perhaps you should swap works between authors?

I must confess that I have not read either of the works as published – but am willing to assume that they are based if albeit perhaps a bit less than several lifetimes worth of studying contemporary documents at least on something reliable like the Prussian Light Infantry Osprey by he who must not named.

Hi Jeff, thanks for calming advice, appreciated.

Actually, I have conversed with Stephen personally on several occasions and he is very amicable, I do not think he took my argument against him personally, at least I hope not, it was not meant to be anything other than my own disagreement with him.

What is bad about the Internet is that your tone cannot be identified at times or mistaken or misunderstood. I can see why Stephen might think I was ganging up on him but I assure you that was not my intent. He has helped me personally and I will always be thankful to him for that.

It is when I have to deal with you know who and their insulting manner that I get prickly and fight back, as anyone would. This thread need not have ended as it has if they had discussed the situation through debate rather than personal ridicule and attack but several people here have already emailed me personally to let me know they are sick of them and are on my side. That made me feel much better.

Anyway, I have a deep respect for Stephen, Kevin, Digby Smith, Scott Bowden and George Nafziger and several other authors who have helped me over the past few years by patiently answering my questuons from time to time. I respect their work and more so that they all gave me the time of day at least once each to provide me with answers…

Regards,
Shane

Big S, you couldn't leave it alone, could you? Just had to try and take a victory lap! In that spirit I provide the following:

"I do not think he took my argument against him personally" Hope springs eternal! It was personal.

"it was not meant to be anything other than my own disagreement with him." I do not believe you.

"I can see why Stephen might think I was ganging up on him but I assure you that was not my intent." I can too. I do not believe you.

"It is when I have to deal with you know who and their insulting manner that I get prickly and fight back, as anyone would." No, you get that way when people criticize your ideas. You have done so on many occasions with your rules. "as anyone would." That is not true. Such behavior on your part is not excusable. Period.

"This thread need not have ended as it has " No it should have ended ca 270 posts ago.

" several people here have already emailed me personally " Ah, yes, down there you call that, "pissing in each others pockets". "are on my side" However, 28 people think differently. You are losing in the polls.

"That made me feel much better." My but you are fragile!

"they all gave me the time of day" A watch is better. Try it, you'll like it.

I am glade you and Kev are back in contact – it must have been frightening!

You may choose to end it here, or not. That is up to you.

Sincerely,

S

Is it too late for me to get in on this? What side needs reinforcing?

As Clausewitz might have put it, the intention is to cause us to lose the will to resist.

Nappy lover

Barthold's first visit to this forum is 18th January 2010 and does nothing but ridicule, insult and name call.

Barthold's account has been Locked.

smith,

You can manipulate my words any way you want and take them any way you wish but you are very transparent. Your whole reason to put in that last post was to further your insults and keep this going. You cannot change the fact that it was you and your buddy that began the insults and ridicule not me. You began this war by ignoring the rules of this forum and you got away with it as usual. That is what disgusts me about you, your vitriol knows no bounds.

I could not care less whether "YOU" believe me or not, to me you are insignificant and clearly unable to associate respectfully in a social setting and act amicably with anyone you do not like. All I have is pity for you that you are like this. You should drink down some of your own medicine.

So Be It. <:^{

@Dr. Summerfield

Please read

Philipp De : Le Service d'Ètat-Major Pendant Les Guerres Du Premier Empire, re – print Teissèdre 2002

There you will find a lot of information about the French staff system and also some assesment what Berthier did think about his own work.

Yay, thanks Bill.

VW,

That sounds like an interesting book, do you know if an English version will be printed?