"Grenz officer" Topic

Can anyone provide any more detail(s) on this officer?

Kliska
-- au 1er régiment de chasseurs illyriens dit "Lika" en 1811
-- capitaine commandant la compagnie de voltiguers au 1er bataillon du 1er régiment provisoire croate en octobre 1811
-- promu chef de bataillon, commandant le 2e bataillon du même régiment vers octobre 1812
-- tué à la bataille de Maloyaroslavets le 24 octobre 1812

Thanks in advance!
:-)

Kliska
- 1st Regiment of Chasseurs Illyrian said "Lika" 1811
- Captain commanding the company voltiguers 1st Battalion, 1st Regiment Provisional Croatian October 1811
- Promoted to colonel, commanding the 2nd battalion of the same regiment to October 1812
- Killed at the Battle of Maloyaroslavets October 24, 1812

translate.google.com/#en|ar|

Brent

During the later years of the French 1st Empire, for line infantry …

ranks:
-- capitaine = "captain" – typically the commander of a company (6 of these in a battalion)
-- chef de bataillon = "battalion commander" roughly equivalent to modern "major" – typically the commander of a battalion
-- major en 2e or major en duxième = "second major" with no modern equivalent – typically the deputy commander of the battalions in the field of a regiment, or a commander of a separate group of 2 battalions of a regiment in the field, with the colonel commanding the remaining battalions – most common in Russia/Eastern Europe in 1812 and early 1813
-- major = "major" roughly equivalent to modern "lieutenant colonel" – typically the deputy commander of a regiment and commander of its depot and any elements there located
-- colonel en 2e or colonel en duxième = "second colonel" with no modern equivalent – typically a commander of 2-4 battalions formed from men or companies of more than one regiment, the officer carried administratively on the rolls of one of the regiments – most common in Iberia from 1809 through 1811
-- colonel = "colonel" – typically the commander of a regiment
-- adjudant commandant = "adjutant-commander" – roughly equivalent to modern "staff colonel" – a staff officer with rank equal to a colonel, not carried on the rolls of any regiment but instead on the list of the officiers de l'état-major de l'armrée
-- général de brigade = "brigadier general" – typically commander of 4-6 battalions from one or more regiment(s) forming a brigade, not carried on the rolls of any regiment but instead on the list of the officiers de l'état-major de l'armrée or of officiers génréraux – even if commanding only the battalions of one (large) regiment

descriptors:
-- à la suite = "attached to" or "supernumerary" – an officer assigned to a regiment or a staff in excess of the regular number of such officers – generally rather uncommon
-- provisoire = "provisional" – when referring to a rank, typically an officer who has been promoted under local authority, and acting in the higher capacity pending confirmation of the Emperor and notification by the Ministry of War – also applied to a more or less temporary regiment composed of men, companies or battalions drawn from more than one regiment (to be contrasted with de marche, applied to a company, battalion or regiment sized units similarly composed but intended to exist only for a short period of time, typically while completing a long movement)
-- commandant = literally "commander" or "commanding" – used to descibe the senior military officer of a fixed place (a fortress, a city, a post, etc.) who did not exercise local civil political control – and also a common informal way of referring to a chef de bataillon

notes:
-- lieutenant colonel = "lieutenant colonel" – this rank was re-created only under the restoration (Napoléon thought it was somehow confusing), replacing the rank of major. The rank of major en 2e was rarely used after 1812/1813, as regiments seldom/never fielded a sufficient number of battalions. The word major was, under the second restoration, used to describe the function of commanding the depot (a post typically then assigned to either a chef de batallion unfit for active serivce or the most junior chef de batallion)
-- it was not intended that the "en 2e" majors and colonels be located anywhere near the "regular" majors and colonels, and so the "en 2e" was often dropped in local usage
-- there were substantial differences in usage for the Guard
-- you can see that not translating this, but instead leaving it in French, can be much clearer. Of course, the same applies for German, Russian, Spanish, etc., etc.

:-)

-- son cheval tué sous lui = horse killed underneath him – including the typical resulting injuries to the rider
-- blessé = wounded, including light and heavy wounds – also including broken bones, and substantial contusions and concussions, if caused by the enemy directly (but not including the results of a fall from a felled horse)
-- blessé grièvement = gravely or badly wounded – typically a life-threatening wound
-- blessé mortellement = mortally wounded – lingering at least into the evening of a day of battle, and sometimes many months, usually receiving medical treatment (can also include, euphemistically, officers left behind during the retreat from Russia, when dying from starvation, exposure, dysentery, typhus, etc.)
-- blessé et disparu = wounded and disappeared, presumed dead – could be that the man was wounded and no one knows what then happened to him, but also used as as euphemism for someone whose body was essentially so destroyed when he was killed that the corpse did not exist or could not be identified (can also include, euphemistically, officers left behind during the retreat from Russia, when dying from starvation, exposure, dysentery, typhus, etc.)
-- tué = killed – typically means that the person was not evacuated from the battlefield, and certainly did not survive the day of battle, and likly received no medical treatment (thus usually includes those triaged as hopeless, those who committed suicide due to the agony of their wounds, and those whose comrades gave to them that final mercy)
-- tué net = killed outright – died nearly at once
-- mort à la suite de ses blessures = died of wounds – but after quite some time – weeks, months, even years
-- mort = dead – could be from any cause

Again, there could be more clarity by not translating.

It appears you have already visited:

Boppe. La Croatie militaire (1809-1813): Les régiments croates a la grande armée.

link

<;^}

I checked the following available work, starting on p 214, without success:

Schematismus der Kais. Königl. Armee Für das Jahr 1805:

link

A few very minor corrections [as this is the Nap. History Board <;^} ]:

"… typically the deputy commander of the battalions in the field of a regiment …." There wasn't any 'deputy commander' of a regiment – this goes for 'major en 2e', major and 'colonel en 2e'. One of the 'selling points' for the 'major en 2e' rank was that he could take over command of the regiment should the colonel be incapacitated.

"… it was not intended that the "en 2e" majors and colonels be located anywhere near the "regular" majors and colonels …." The 'major en 2e' was indeed to be with the regiment in the field (see above regarding 'taking over). The large regiments were split into two units, the colonel commanding the first part and the 'major en 2e' the second part. For the Russian campaign, a 'general de brigade' was in command of these two parts.

" … the officer carried administratively on the rolls of one of the regiments …." The 'major en 2e' was part of the regimental staff as was the major, however, the 'colonels en 2e' were not part of any particular regiment, but a pool of officiers 'à la suite' in the army.

For 1813 – officers were placed as needed regularly without regard to the above plans. Ah, there is always 1813 to mess-up the theory! <;^}

Yours, in firm research,

Big Al

Well, you obviously went to one of the academic schools in our dear homeland. I, sadly, was merely educated in the technical school and learned nothing of literature or writing beyond the words to Oben am jungen Rhein!
:-)

The Boppe has indeed long been a favorite. It was one of the books my father used to teach me to read (in French, as it turned out – which I did not realize was a "foreign" language at the time).

Finding my missing chef de batallion might be easier under Croatian spelling : Kliška … well, easier for you, as I struggle (quite a bit) with Croatian.

And now to my mangled syntax and poor writing skills …

There are some cases where the major en 2e was not there just because of the number of battalions. For examples, we have the 1er régiment provisoire croate, where chef de batallion François-Joseph Leyder was promoted major en 2e, even though there were only 2 battalions in the field, along with the colonel graf Marko plemić Šljivarić von Heldenburg. Similarly for major en 2e Masson of the 8ème régiment d'infanterie légère – in the field with colonel Jean-Baptiste Ricard and only 2 battalions. But you are of course correct – I did not intend to describe this position as a "deputy commander of the regiment", but a "duputy to the colonel for the purpose of commanding battalions in the field".

I had tired to note that the "major en 2e" did not serve with the "major" – and "colonel en 2e" did not serve with the colonel – and hence was warning our colleagues that "major Smith" as described in some source might really be "major en 2e Smith".

And then we have even stranger examples, such as major Poutier of the 84e de ligne, who may have been "jumped up" to full major, as he is described as "major à la suite" – not that this stopped his being left behind to die during the retreat.

Well, I suppose that is enough about the command structure of the 1ere brigade de la 13e division d'infanterie in late 1812. Moving on …

The majors (typically) initially commanding the régiments provisoires in Iberia were surely on the rolls of their régiments. If you will say that upon their official nomination as a "colonel en 2e" there were removed to the category "à la suite de l'armée", you have "larned me summat" – thank you !
In my more limited reading at the technical school, I had taken references such as "colonel en 2e Smith du 1er de ligne" as indicating not origin, but then-current assignment.

Yours in firm research, always, dear Friend,
:-)

P.S. – Do you have any idea of a letter or report written by maréchal de camp baron Harlet about the attack of the (dite) Moyenne Garde at Waterloo, for which a colleague here has provided his own translation in another thread?
I can find no reference to such, and am leery of writing to Bernard Coppens about it without a little more information or confirmation.

Re: Harlet – We have travelled the same path, alas both without results. I also awaite our colleague's response.

I based my responses re the 'en 2e' ranks upon the orders setting up both the 'major en 2e' and 'colonel en 2e' ranks from 1810 onward.

My own inquiry into this matter started because I too saw much confussion in the printed words available to me. A number of years ago, I posted the ever changing regulations regarding these two positions – I will try to locate them and post the URL here on the TMP.

The 'en 2e' positions evolved over time. It was caused by a point you bring up – the sending of regimental majors ('en 1er' <;^} ) into the field to command 'provisional' units going to Spain. The majors belonged at the depots – not in the field. So a cadre of 'colonels en 2e' and 'majors en 2e' was created – I forget the exact number for each, both cav. and infanterie – to command the 'provisional' regiments. The 'colonel en 2e' stayed in this roll, while the 'major en 2e' evolved to solve the 'span of control' problem created by the ever increasing number of batallions per regiment set up during the 'ramp-up' to the Russian invasion. I speculate that this was a cost saving measure to cut the overhead needed to create new regiments – one has one regimental staff for two 'regiments'.

You are younger then I. In my day it was "Oben am deutschen Rhein"!

Keep'um flying,

Big Al

Why do I think that the trail I follow with this material is so often merely a matter of walking in your footprints ?

:-)

Vojna Hrvatska: krajiško društvo u Francuskom Carstvu (1809-1813)‎
Drago Roksandić
link

Lika i Krbava: povijesne slike, crtice i biljeske (I)
Rudolf Horvat
link

"licki major Marko Kliška" !!

:-)

I tried harder! <;^}

Schematismus der Kais. Königl. Armee Für das Jahr 1805, p 219:

Marc Kliska 1805 Unter-Lieutenant in Oguliner Regiment Nr. 3:

link

1804: Oguliner Regiment Nr. 3, p 222;

1807: Oguliner Regiment Nr. 3, p 220.

The 2nd Croatian Regiment was raised in 1809 from the 3rd (Oguliner) and the 4th ….

Big Al

The 1804 issue should be p 213 NOT p 222:

link

Unter-Lieutenant in Oguliner regt. Nr. 3!

Excellent – thank you so much !

Did you find the Schematismus für das Jahr 1807 to be viewable online ? I cannot seem to find it.

I apologize, but ! am little confused here:
"The 2nd Croatian Regiment was raised in 1809 from the 3rd (Oguliner) and the 4th …".
Did you intend something like …
"The 2nd Provisional Croatian Regiment was raised in 1812 from the 3rd (Oguliner) and the 4th …" ?
I thought that the 2nd Croatian Regiment raised in 1809 was essentially the 2. Otočaner kroatische Grenz-Infanterie-Regiment of the former Austrian service.

Thank you again!
:-)

You have "Bearded the Bard", Sir! I feel those footsteps coming ever so close. <;^}

Yes, should have been "Provisional" and "1812".

"Did you find the Schematismus für das Jahr 1807 to be viewable online?"

A Google Book Search using Search terms:

"with all of the words" Kliska;

"Title" Schematismus.

Yields "… Für das Jahr 1807":

link

Sometimes we can make the invisible become visible.

Keep walking, my friend, for I could use the cooling breeze as you pass me by. <;^}

Big Al

Thank you again – and as usual!

Well, we have at least managed to reconstruct an outline of the short life of chef de bataillon Marko Kliška. It never seems fair to me to find these heros (of all nations) forgotten. I suppose I am too sentimental.

"as you pass me by" – not in this lifetime, my friend, not in this life.

:-)

It suits you both to live on the Oberrhein, aren't you from Liechtenstein?
However there the Rhein is not Deutsch but Schwitzer Dütsch.

Anyway in my Schematismus of 1806 Kliska (Marc) is already Ober – Lieutenant – and in the 1810 one evidently not present.

VW,

Yes, indeed, "Die Wacht am Rhein" has a different meaning on the Oberrhein. Oh, the Swiss hoards! Where is Heino when one needs him? <;^}

Do you know if the Schematismus was published at the begining of the year or at some other point? The 1808 would be useful, but so might the 1809.

"… wer will des Stromes Hüter sein?"

Big Al

As to the publishing – I cannot alas say.
The 1809 Schematismus might be the most usefull.

Von Winterfeldt –
Thank you very much for your help !
It is very kind of you to assist,
:-)

Prior material re major and colonel 'en 2e':

link