"Facing colours of Prussian and Austrian Gren Btns" Topic

Hi,
1812-1815 uniforms.

I've not got much information on these units. Were the companies of Austrian Grenadier Battalions coloured in the facings of the parent regiments. In drawings I've seen, facings tend to be red.

I believe that entire Prussian Grenadier Battalions were drawn from parent units, (possibly confused with Russians).
Did these have fixed facings or of the parent regiment. Thirdly, logic says to me that they were drawn from the original 12 line regiments not the Reserve.

I have the Osprey Austrian Infantry Napoleonic Wars book and it does not discuss the composition of the Austrian Grenadiers. I don't have Osprey's Prussian Infantry book.

Thanks for the help,

As far as I know Austrian grenadiers had the facings of the parent unit, illustration I have show grenadiers with other coloured fgacings than red. There were a fair number of regiments with red facings though.

No idea about Prussians.

Prussian Grenadier Battalions consisted of 4 companies 2 of each from 2 different regiments. So there were 6 battalions drawn from the 11 of the regular regiments, the Leib Regiment contributed a complete battalion. The main difference was the shoulder strap colour. Facings (Collar and cuffs) were the same throughout the battalion. All had red turnbacks. So distintives were as below;

1. East Prussian – Dull orange facings white/red shoulder straps

2. East Prussian – Dull orange yellow/light blue

Pommeranian – White white/red

West Prussian – Crimson white/red

Leib – Red white/red

Silesian – Yellow white/red

Sabre straps & knots differed for each company if you want to go into that much detail but I don't have the info to hand.

For the Austrians look here.

link

It's ok about the swordknots. I don't go into that level of detail, and the 15mm figs I have don't have the sabre-briquet for the Prussians.

Thanks to both of you for your help.

Leib – Red white/red

All the companies of the Leib Grenadier Battalion had white shoulder straps. The Leib Regiment (IR.9, then IR.8) had a full battalion of grenadiers, while the new IR.12 had none (nor did the Garde Regiment zu Fuss, either before or after it was pulled out of the line).

rmaker, an 1820 regimental history of the Leib-Infanterie-Regiment states that, even though the regiment itself had white shoulder straps, the 1st and 2nd grenadier companies of the Leib-Grenadier-Bataillon had white, and the 3rd and 4th companies red should straps.

rmaker,

I thought the same as you until Oliver came along and put me straight.

I'm certainly happy to yield to primary sources. Or, as yoda would say, "Something new every day you learn."

Try this site as well:

link

Go to the bottom for the Index of Countries

OK, austrian grenadiers bore the facing colours of their parental regiment. But the grenadier companies from which regiments build up the different grenadier battalions?

It depends on the period/campaign.

For 1809, have a look at my site: if you scroll down to the bottom of the page, I indicated which battalions were made of which regiments, as well as the facing colours they would wear : link

Very informative indeed!. Another question: what facing colour would be worn by the colonel of a grenadiers regiment? I presume that the colonels of the parental regiments stayed with their own.

Generally speaking based on that era, commanders would be selected by Imperial Degree. Thier uniform would be loosely tailored to what other general officers wore that was the fashion of the time for the army they were in. I suspect their was no "offical" Colonel Genadier uniform.

There was a regulation Oberst (Colonel) uniform in the Austrian army, a lot more strict on regulations than the French :

White, single-breasted coat with standing collar and german cuffs in the facings colour, white turnbacks, more elegant cut of coat with long tails, with gilt or silver buttons, black and gold sash made of silk, as well as golden helmet crest and cuff lace. On the field, to preserve the expensive white coat (that they had to purchase), they would usually wear a dark grey to almost black oberrock, with collar and/or cuffs in the facing colours.

- I presume that the colonels of the parental regiments stayed with their own.-

Indeed, the commanding officer of a Grenadier battalions would most likely have been a spare Oberstwachtmeister (Major) or Oberstleutnant. The uniform would be basically the same as the one I described above, if not for the Grenadier cap (with gilt plate) instead of the helmet. Each Grenadiers battalion's name is actually the name of the commanding officer. I use the parent regiment as the command stand, but that's conjecture from my part, I never could find definitive evidence about that (the parent regiment being the first regiment mentionned, i.e. for Battalion Leiningden 24/30/41, parent would be IR24). Grenadiers battalions would carry one Ordinarfahne.

Hope this helps,
Iannick
Clash of Empires link

Just a brief update on ArchiducCharles' posting.
Both Rawkins and Knotel suggest that officers of both fusilier and grenadier battalions wore the schiffhut (a fore-and-aft bicorne) on campaign although various illustrations show officers in action in the helmet, shako or bearskin as appropriate. As many contemporary accounts support, it was fairly common practice for officers and other ranks to dress down on the march and spruce up for battle.
Regarding the standards carried by Grenadier battalions, I've found suggestions that only the first company of the lowest numbered regiment would carry a standard, and this would be their regiment's Leibfahne e.g. in 1809 Kirchenbetter, drawn from IR34, IR 37 and IR60, would have carried the Leibfahne of IR34. The Leibfahne of IR37 and IR60 would be either left at the regimental depot or carried by the respective 1st battalions of their parent regiments.

From where is your source that Austrian grenadiers did carry colours?

David Hollins. Haythornwaite also mentions it in his Osprey on Austrian Infantry if I remember correctly.

- Regarding the standards carried by Grenadier battalions, I've found suggestions that only the first company of the lowest numbered regiment would carry a standard, and this would be their regiment's Leibfahne –

This only happened in 1805. As per David Hollins, Grenadiers always carried the Ordinarfahne except during the 1805 campaign.

From earlier threads :

"In 1805, each regt had 6 batts of just 4 cos each – the 1st Batt was its own Grenadier (or Leib) battalion, ***which for the only time in the period has the Grenadiers carrying the white Leibfahne***"
TMP link

and here :

"In 1805, the Grenadiers were formed up as the first battalion of each regt, but were still usually massed into a reserve. In 1806, they reverted to their old battalion arrangement. ***Only in 1805 did they carry their regt Leibfahne – otherwise it was a single spare Ordinarfahne.***"

TMP link

In answer to von Winterfeld, I've managed to track two sources.

The first is Terence Wise's Flags of the Napoleonic Wars (2) published by Osprey (yes I know, in this forum Osprey is only a reputable source if the author is Dave Hollins).

From 1768 Line Infantry regiments carried two flags per battalion, the 1st Battalion having one Leibfahnde or King's Colour and one Ordinarfahne or Regimental Colour, the other battalions having two Ordinarfahnen. As the grenadier companies were detached to serve in combined Grenadier Battalions, some 1st Battalions did not have their Leibfahne, this being carried by their grenadier company. However, it seems likely Grenadier Battalions only carried two flags, one Leib – and one Ordinarfahne, the Leibfahne probably being from the senior regiment present.

Wise cites sources (e.g. Heer & Tradition Plate 88) and thanks Dr Hans Bleckween and Tony Burgess for their assistance but it is impossible to tie these acknowledgments to the quotation above.

The second source is WJ Rawkins The Austro-Hungarian Army 1805-1814 in the form of photostatted sheets dating back to the mid 1970s. It is supportive but not entirely in accord with Wise.

Cavalry standards were carried by a junior officer, Fahnrich, as were the standards of the 1st. company grenadiers and 1st. company, 1st. Battalion of musketeers of the infantry. The two 'first' companies of the infantry regiments were issued with a special standard, the Leib-Fahn.

Rawkins does not cite any sources.

Prussian Grenadiers (1808-1814)

See Stephen Summerfield (2009) Prussian Infantry 1808-1840 – Volume 1 Line and Guard (1808-14), Partizan Press, Nottingham. pg 152-9

The shoulder straps were of two colours within each battalion as it was formed by 2 Grenadier companies from two Regiments. Also the correct flags for each battalion.

In October 1814, they became two Grenadier Regiments recieving the M1814 uniform which was different to that worn in 1808-14. It was more Russian like pg 172-179.

Stephen