"Austrian Napoleonic regimental distinctions?" Topic

I've got the Ospreys on Austrian infantry and Austrian artillery but there's little in either of them about uniforms, other than what you can infer from the plates. Does anyone know what the various regimental facing colours were for the Austrian army of 1805?

This should help you.

link

This too should help if you can read French.

link

Excellent links both, thanks!

Handy sites!

Osprey Austrian Infantry has a whole list on page 22/23/24

Not for 1805 it doesn't Brownbear.

IIRC they're 1809+ whilst the actual colours changed very little the regiment's names changed a lot :-)

And here:

link

zippee, the book says facings after 1798 and iirc the inhaber name changes but not the number

You don't need to be able to read French for many of the pages on the Histofig link (anlieher's 2nd post). Just find the small icon of the Union Jack and press it.

Rick

Ah, a great subject. I am a BIG fan of the Austrians and know of these three sites, and they are indeed helpful. But I will also say, be careful.

The first link (Napoleonic Guide)is really pretty good, but with only verbal descriptions, it is difficult to relate them to the actual color. Be very careful with the color shades shown.

The second link (the French language one) is a really helpful site due to the art work, but the colors can be questionable on some of them, and there is a true error on the facing color for the 51st Regiment, saying they wore violet facings, when they actually wore dark blue facings. I suspect that they erred in carrying forward the violet facings of the 50th Regiment, who did indeed have violet facings.

The last one (Extra Crispy) is absolutely EXCELLENT. The colors are true, and I know a lot of work went into creating this chart and what a gift to all of us! Note the color of Parrot Green – not a light green green like most people think, but a true strongly yellow green!

Gotta love the Austrians – I do!!!

Terry

The Funken Book on the Napoleonic wars has a nice easy to read list of regiment and facing colors. As does the Knotel book which can be found in almost any library.

>>"Note the color of Parrot Green – not a light green green like most people think, but a true strongly yellow green!"

Where do you see Parrot Green?

Parrot Green is the color of the dolman and pelisse for the 4th Hussars, the facing color for the Anspach Kuirassiers, for the 10th and 26th Infantry Regiments, as well as the 16th and 17th Grenzer. To see this color look at the color chart that Extra Crispy gives the link for above. That link is absolutely the best ever information for Austrian facing colors for the Napoleonic Wars. I feel pretty sure that Vallejo Yellow Green 954 will be a perfect match for this shade but won't know for sure until I pick up the bottle I ordered this Saturday from Lord Al's in Nashville. Hope this helps, but if not, let me know,

Terry

Just to interject briefly, I made a mistake in the list on EC's site. I thought there was something rather curious about the Ottenfeld/Haythornthwaite rendering of the two greens – Plate E in MAA 181 shows dark (grass) and dark (parrot). By the late 19th century when Ottenfeld was produced, parrot had become dark green. However, I could see from the 1798 Mollo plates that one green was this rather horrible yellow-green. When I checked the annual Schematis, it showed this colour as paperlgrun – I could not find paperl in any dictionary and assumed that the spelling had changed to paperl, (German was only standarised in the late 19th century), which means Poplar (as in the tree).

Well, shouldn't guess! Paperl is actually a Viennese dialect word for parrot, which in German is usually Papegei. So, the name is Parrot Green, but it is still this yellow-green Terry describes.

EC – if you are reading this, could you adjust that name!

I bought and tried soooo many colors to come up with the correct shade for the Parrot Green used by the Austrians during the Napoleonic Wars and with the help of David Hollins (Thank you David very much!), I have found a near perfect, if not perfect match. It is NOT Vallejo Yellow Green 954 as I had originally thought it would be, but instead Vallejo German Yellow 806 is the right color to use.

I am sure this will cause a stir because most renditions of the 4th Hussars and Parrot Green shows a nice bright, light green, and the correct shade is very much a yellow green, and nothing like a bright, light green. But in working with David and comparing the various colors I tried against known art work, German Yellow is the one.

Terry

Austrian Regtl distinctions:

1809 Archduke Charles' Legion(infantry), Osprey #299 says the Archduke Charles Legion wore pike-grey trousers, but the earlier 1800 version of ACL(Archduke Charles Legion), had them wearing the Bohemian/Hungarian blue pants….I'm confused, if the ACL, was still being recruited from Bohemia, wouldn't the trousers still be a blue color, not pike-grey?

I understand the 1st Battalion of this Legion was the Waltrich Jagers, so they wore a Corshut/Jager hat.

Should I use a German-Austrian Line infantryman or a Hungarian Line infantryman figure, to create the 2nd through the 6th battalions of this six battalion strong Legion?

Osprey #299, says that the ACL wore darker brown Rehbraun coats, with the pointed red cuffs.

Did the Lobkowitz Jager Battalion, wear the same uniform as the Waltrich Jagers?

Were these two "jager" battalions, of equal combat value as the Austrian Feld, or Field Jager Battalions?

I've read and re-read pages 16-18, only thta I'm not gleaning the real uniform design and colors of the ACL, nor the information presented on the Jager battalions.

Any sort of clarification or help, would be appreciated.

Wayne

Hello, Wayne,

The information on the ACL etc. in 1809 is not good and so, it is necessary to look at the pieces and what is "likely".

"1809 Archduke Charles' Legion(infantry), Osprey #299 says the Archduke Charles Legion wore pike-grey trousers, but the earlier 1800 version of ACL(Archduke Charles Legion), had them wearing the Bohemian/Hungarian blue pants….I'm confused, if the ACL, was still being recruited from Bohemia, wouldn't the trousers still be a blue color, not pike-grey?"

This is actually down to an error in understanding the colour "hechtgrau" (pike grey). It is a blue of varying shades getting steadily darker across the period – unfortunately, a printing problem at OIsprey made the 1809 Moravian FW's trousers come out a rather bizarre purple, but it should be a deep blue with a hint of grey in it. This colour has been seen by the likes of Knotel and Ottenfeld later, who have thought "must be Hungarian without knots" and so, that myth has spread. So, the colour is hechtgrau, but in a darker shade by 1809.

"I understand the 1st Battalion of this Legion was the Waltrich Jagers, so they wore a Corshut/Jager hat." This is speculation. Major Waltrich commanded the battalion, which was the only one to see active service in the Bavarian phase. At the time, they were just "Bohemian Freiwillige" as volunteers from the Landwehr prepared to serve outside their province. There is a tendency to call all light infantry Jaegers and of course it means "hunter", which was the profession of many of these men. There is no evidence either way as to whether they wore Corsehuts or shakos.

"Should I use a German-Austrian Line infantryman or a Hungarian Line infantryman figure, to create the 2nd through the 6th battalions of this six battalion strong Legion?" German. The flag of the 2nd Batt. (the unit illustrated behind Prince Kinsky in MAA299) is known to have been a 5 horizontally striped flag of yellow over blue with a black Doppeladler on it.

"Osprey #299, says that the ACL wore darker brown Rehbraun coats, with the pointed red cuffs." Yes, the pointed red cuff (with no other decoration) was the official symbol of a volunteer unit. The jacket of the Moravian FW i9n MAA299 has come up too dark, but it is a darkish Rehbraun, also used by the artillery, most of which was based in Bohemia and Moravia.

"Did the Lobkowitz Jager Battalion, wear the same uniform as the Waltrich Jagers?" Still unknown. The drum is the only thing known to have survived. However, there is a French reference to a unit in this area wearing a brown jacket faced orange with "blue" trousers", which may well be them as it does not fit anything else. The Lobkowitz were raised in Prague, so it is quite likely that the uniforms are the same, although he headgear is speculation.

"Were these two "jager" battalions, of equal combat value as the Austrian Feld, or Field Jager Battalions?" Both werev fully volunteers, while the Jaeger were a div of former IR64 riflemen with 2 divs of newly conscripted Bohemians and Moravians, so it probably balances out.

Dave, this is very useful stuff. I have just read your titles on Austrian Grenadiers and Line Infantry and on Austrian Commanders (I have the artillery one somewhere too but the missus has hidden it).

I am planning an Austrian army of 1805 and grappling with three challenges.

One is unit strength. What in your view is the correct number of companies for an Austerlitz-era Austrian line regiment at war establishment? I gather Mack's reforms were in the process of changing this? Also, your book notes that on mobilisation, the regiments rounded up the local eligible draftees, so that unit strength went up. I am more used to rounding wartime unit strengths down! – so what would you say was a reasonable start-of-campaign strength? 6 companies of 200 effectives?

The second question is around grenadiers. Do you know of a resource which says whose grenadiers got converged with whose? It would be fun to reproduce an actual converged battalion or two, and its parent regiments.

4th cuirassier

here is a good discussion on TMP about grenadiers

TMP link

4th – Mack's reforms had been implemented by the time the army marched off, although a key criticism of his approach is that the extra 20 men per co had not been drawn in and so, the battalions were under strength. In 1805, each regt had 6 batts of just 4 cos each – the 1st Batt was its own Grenadier (or Leib) battalion, which for the only time in the period has the Grenadiers carrying the white Leibfahne. This battalion was made up of the two "Alt" (old) Grenadier cos in bearskins and two "Jung" cos, which were line infantry in helmets. Then there are four 4-co line batts plus the reserve batt. As the increase didn't happen and the cos would be below strength anyway, an average co would b about 150-160 all in.

Just as a bit of extra info, I was poking about in the KA in vienna a few days ago. One guy had gone through quite a few regt histories looking at the subject of when flags were issued to the infantry. I need to have a look at some bits I have and the OB at Ulm, but as a rule of thumb for 1809, it seems that the German regts generally had the 1806 pattern by then, while the Hungarian units mostly had the old 1792 pattern. Within that, there are variations – IR16 had at least one 1806 Ordinarfahne with just yellow flames on the outside pointing in (ie: no white) and IR32's 1806 pattern standards in Russia have red ribbons from the Crown, not the usual blue. As I mentioned before, no 1804 patterns were issued (except possibly a couple briefly to IR4 at the very end of 1805, but these would have been quickly replaced by the 1806 pattern).

1792 list (Kriege gegen die franz. Revolution Vol.1 App XIX)

3 4 46 Josef St. Julien

23, 24, 49 Burger

14, 50, 59 Chevalier Keating

16, 27, 45 Zschock

13, 26, 43 Redel

10, 41, 54 Ulm

25, 35, 42 Adelstein

17, 36, 47 Graf Attems

11, 18, 21 Graf Walsch

15, 28, 57 Synoth

8, 22, 29 Staader

1, 12, 40 Graf Nimpsch

7, 20, 56 Bender

2, 32, 34 Barthodeiszky

19, 37, 53 Graf Morzin

33, 39, 52 Leeuven

Cam 70: Marengo gioves the battalions in the battle and the Italian publication (De Bello) L'escertio Austriaco 1805-15 gives the 1809 & 1813 batts.

Thanks Dave that is excellent material.

Crumbs, isn't it complicated? All I want is an Austrian army suitable to fight 1805 French…and now I find the battalions will all be understrength!!

Just on a detail point – if the first battalion was half-grenadier and half-line infantry, what happened to the other half of that line battalion?

AFAIK the rump of the 'old' 1st became the 'new' 2nd Battalion. The 'old' 2nd became the 'new' 3rd and the 'old' 3rd became the 'new' 4th. Two companies were removed from the 'old' 2nd and 'old' 3rd and combined to form the 'new' 5th. The depot battalion was the 'new' 6th.

Apparently, late on in the 1805 war, stragglers, escaped prisoners and various odds-and-sods were used to form a few 7th battalions of the regiments destroyed at Ulm.

The 1st (Leib) Batt was 2 cos of Grenadiers plus two cos of line inf (who kept their helmets). The remaining 4 cos of the old 1st batt formed the 1st Infantry Batt, then the old 2nd batt formed the 2nd and two cos of the 3rd Infantry Batts, leaving the old 3rd batt to finish off the new 3rd Inf Batt and form the new 4th Infantry Batt, hen the depot formed the Reserve Batt. Of course, it does not help that later authors refer to the batts as 1st to 6th, so "3rd Batt" could be the 2nd or 3rd Infantry Batt.

Charles remarked that while the reorg was not a bad idea, it was done too quickly so that the officers did not know their men and vcuie versa. This is however rather more to do with the senior battalion officers than the company commands.

From going through regimental histories, it seems that many of the battalions in the army of Germany were 450-500 men – in other words more like 120 per company. One of the reasons given is that Mack intended to push the army into Bavaria without waiting for complete mobilization in order to forestall a French move into southern Germany. This seems to have applied mainly to the initial 63 battalions that advanced into Bavaria. For the same reason, the cavalry regiments marched without procuring sufficient remounts and were hunting for these in Bavaria when the French hit.

Charles mobilized in a more leisurely fashion – from Criste (and memory) he had his army ready by mid-October while Mack had marched into Bavaria the first week of September. So it seems that the regiments in the Army of Italy would be closer to establishment, so 160 per company would be more likely.

Dave, maybe you can confirm something that I recall but can't find a source for: I seem to recall that the Hugarian regiments did not have a significant peacetime strength reduction while the Austrian regiments reduced to approx. 2/3 wartime strength in peacetime. But as pointed out on another thread, Wrede's table of peacetime/wartime establishments does not seem to support this.

Also, I have not seen the Grenadier battlions of 1805 numbered. The "proper" numbering was Grenadier plus 1st-4th infantry (fusilier) plus 5th reserve. But the Grenadier battalion ws the first in the regiment, 1st infantry battalion the second in the regiment … Does this match your data?

4th cuirassier – actually in most of the wars regiments of all armies were a bit understrength. The system of maintaining a depot battalion which was first implemented in 1805 meant that the field battalions could draw on the depot battalion to bring them up to establishment before leaving france. An efficient method of providing replacements on campaign kept them there. This worked well in 1805-7, but in earlier and later campaigns it was pretty common for the French battalions to be below establishment also.

SauveQuiPeut – been on the Delphi forum lately?

Dear Forum,

I'd like to thank the forum, as well as Dave Hollins, for the Austrian Napoleonics' uniforms, circa, 1809
information! Please don't leave us Dave, my Austrian Army isn't completely painted, presently…..

I believe finding information on the 1809 Austrian Army, more specifically, Archduke Charles' Army, at Wagram. may turn out easier than say, looking for the 1805 Austrian Army uniforms, or pre-1805 uniforms……
Saying that, I sojourned on….trying to get the entire Austrian Army of Archduke Charles', as the OOB of Wagram describes it, painted in 15mm Austrian Napoleonic miniature figures.

An ongoing effort now, dating back for more than four years…..I'm a very slow painter, who gets sometimes "bogged down" by my efforts to get the most historically correct Napoleonic uniform details…..painted, on my miniatures!

With kind regards from Richmond,
Wayne

wayneempire
waynenapempire@aol.com

@ Carnot:

Got it in one

Re: the numbering of Grenadier battalions

So when OOB's for Austerlitz mention 6th battalions, is this a modern convention, rather than the original Austrian designation?

Yes, Carnot is absolutely right, but the late 19th century writers confused things and so, it has gone on.

"So when OOB's for Austerlitz mention 6th battalions, is this a modern convention, rather than the original Austrian designation?"

Weeeeelllll, it's not really incorrect. Several of these battalions were sixth battalions, but they were not called battalion #6 if that makes sense. A regiment raises a sixth battalion and it gets the number 5. If we are talking about IR20, the first battalion of a regiment was the grenadier battalion, the second was 1/IR20 and the sixth was designated 5/IR20. And yes, I have also gotten the designation confused (in print).

What makes it especially confusing is that in some cases there was a 6/IRxx and even a 7/IRxx. But in order to figure out what is what, you have to see whether the author is talking about the sixth battalion of the regiment (5/IRxx) or infantry (fusilier) battalion #6 (6/IRxx). Or if the author is just confused by a numbering scheme that was only in effect for about 4 months (I've seen a few of these). I discovered the relevant text of the infantry reorganization in a regimental history fairly recently and it explains the numbering and allocation of battalion guns very clearly. Wish I had found this years ago!

Suddenly, it all becomes clear

While we're on about 1805 confusions…one that appears here and there is the substitution of the six battalions of Salzburg Militia for the six battalions of IR23 Salzburg at Austerlitz.

Any ideas where that mix-up originated from? I notice that the regimental list in Haythornthwaites MAA176 is totally devoid of a 'Salzburg' – IR23 is listed only as '…Toscana, later Wurzburg', so anyone searching there for a regular 'Salzburg Regiment' would be out of luck…and might make a mistaken connection with the Salzburg Militia. Or is there another source for this one?

There was no Salzburg militia in 1805 – the Vienna Volunteer unit were swapped into the Olmutz garrison although some OBs show them at Austerlitz. IR23's Inhaber was Archduke Ferdinand, the Habsburg brother between Franz and Charles. He was Grand Duke of Tuscany until the 1803 Mediation of Germany, when he was given the old Archbishopric of Salzburg's lands as an Elector. In 1806 under the Peace of Pressburg, he was moved to GD of Wurzburg.

Yeah, what Dave said. Regarding the Vienna Jager, I'm not entirely convinced they were swapped out at Olmutz. the daily orders during the advance do include them, suggesting they advanced with the army, but it seems pretty clear they were not on the battlefield on 2 December. My best guess is they were left with the artillery park (Frierenberger came up from somewhere late in the day) or maybe even sticking close to der Kaiser.

Assuming the Vienna Volunteer Jaeger used the Burgergarde uniforms, the surviving helmets in the Vienna City Museum would suggest that they were going in for the regimental silly hat competition! They look as ridiculous as some of the cavalry helmets of the 1820s.

Well, on 1 figure = 33 men, it sounds then like one could legitimately raise an Austrian army of either 4 x 5 figures (160-man companies) or 4 x 6 figures (200-man companies reflecting those units that mobilised more slowly and were stronger)?

AHA! A research breakthrough!

"So, general Buxhowden, where shall we deploy the Vienna Jager?"

"Errr … those fellows with the ridiculous helmets? Deploy them behind a hill somewhere where no one will see them. Hic. Where's that vodka?"

Damn…I was thinking that a fun 'Christmas game' for the club could be 'The Austerlitz Fantasy Deathmatch' with the Salzburg Militia, Vienna Jagers and Russian Garde-Grenadiers taking on a force of the 'Bavarians' that supposedly fooled everyone except Thiebault. Both sides start an equal distance from the Pratzeberg, whoever holds it at the end wins.

Landwehr, Russians and Bavarians…no probs…but who does 15mm 'Viennese Volunteers in Silly Hats'?

Dear Forum,

Anyone know of a miniatures' manufacturer who makes a 15mm Austrian Napoleonic "Grenz artillerist figure? I need about 80 or more of the 1809 Austrian Grenz artillerists' figures, in 15mm, to man alot of Austrian Grenz artillery batteries, to cover Archduke Charles' Army & Archduke John's "Army of the Interior".

Have had no luck finding this miniature figure…although it's clearly shown in a color plate, with text, in the MAA Osprey on Austrian Napoleonic Specialist Troops……

My French opponents won't let me field Austrian Rocket batteries & I can't field Grenz artillery batteries without Grenz artillerists, to man the guns…..up the Danube creek, without a paddle.

We Austrian gamers, need all the "help" we can find……

Regards,
Wayne

My main opponent always let me deploy a rocket battery, he's nice that way. I once even managed to hit the inside of a barn with it. Unfortunately the barn my jäger were hiding in!

"Unfortunately the barn my jäger were hiding in!"

Any rocket rules that don't allow the possibilty of blowing yourself up are missing half the fun, I think…though that's more for battalion and regimental-scale games…

have always wanted to field the rockets but have never seen them in any OOB

Does someone manufacture the rocket miniatures (again, in 15mm, and preferably compatible with AB)?

Yeah, they wouldn't appear in any OOB, I'm sure. As they were an experimental unit, they'd only be fieldable in non-historical games or perhaps campaign games. I'd use the specific rules system's statistics for British rocket artillery, modified as appropriate for Austrian V. British movement speeds. The Austrian version wouldn't be horse artillery, and might not even be fast foot. Of course, since it's an experimental unit anyway, why not go whole hog and make it horse. You'd certainly only ever see one model on the table, and it would have no appreciable impact on scenario balance. Entertainment value, however, through the roof.

As for figures, I would think you could use a British rocket model with standard (or slightly modified) Austrian artillery crewmen. Hmm. now I gotta go look it up. I don't think there would have been any uniform distictions…

this sounds good wryeone am itching to try now. since we are also talking regimental facings here,,,the darn parrot green which was or became the poplar green as researched by dave h. et al and the color shown on deep fried happy mice. no longer that bright lime like green but some yellowish greenish thing. does anyone have a paint they use for it?? pleaseeeeeeeeeee

Vallejo German Yellow 806 was suggested above, but I haven't had a chance to try it myself. Anyone have a pic?

wry, looked it up and you are spot on. that is the color. how it will look on that famous regiment is another thing. hopefully not to bilious. many thanks for your kindness, Les////now just have to let Mark @ scale creep know in cin. ohio and am off to do the hessen homburgs///sigh

Ah, here is an earlier thread on Rockets. I should have known someone would have touched on this already.

TMP link