"Use of Polymer Clay as a Sculpting Understructure for Beasts?" Topic

As you can see from these photos, that is exactly what I have started to do with an Entelodont prototype:

link

I started with a wire frame of sorts and filled it in with the polymer clay (in this case, Terracotta Sculpey):

link

I am absolutely new to sculpting, so I would like to know if there are any disadvantages to this approach.

I plan to do the same with the neck and head of the beast, which will all be followed by detailing using Green Stuff.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Do you think that this approach would present any obstacles if the final figure is ever used for a mould and subsequent castings?

As you can see from this last question, I am completely uninformed as to how the casting progress actually develops once a green is complete.

Thanks.

CC

By the way, these are the threads that led to this amateur attempt of mine:

TMP link
TMP link

CC

Hi,

in itself that should work ok. Just make sure the mouldmaker knows when you have it cast.

Bye, Ming-Hua

I am absolutely new to sculpting, so I would like to know if there are any disadvantages to this approach.

Air bubbles in the clay can explode or cause cracks. Not had it happen to me, but I've heard about it from a dollmaker friend.

My husband gave up polymer clay for two reasons: he found it too brittle for sculpting, and he had problems getting pieces to dry after baking. It may have been a problem with old or inconsistent quality clay, but it was tiresome enough he gave up on it.

"Air bubbles in the clay can explode or cause cracks."

Thanks for bringing that up.

As a sculpting material polymer clay is not the very best. That is why I was thinking of using it simply as a skeleton or understructure/armature for a final fleshing up with Green Stuff.

After the armature is hand sculpted and given a final bake, the next step will be adding details with epoxy putty (Green Stuff).

My reasoning is that, in this way, I can reduce the amount of Green Stuff used, plus I have an unlimited amount of time to work on the understructure until I am absolutely ready to harden it.

Maybe these are stupid questions of mine . . .

1) When making a mould, do the greens get subjected to heat?

2) Are the greens salvageable or are they destroyed as in the lost wax method used by some jewelers?

If the greens are indeed subjected to additional heat, then I would really be concerned about the possibility of bubbling after the details have been laboriously added with Green Stuff.

CC

For one-of models, Sculpey is not too bad:

link

However, as armatures for making moulds I just have absolutely no idea.

CC

1) Yes. They are subject to very high pressure which will, due to the laws of physics, create heat. Some are heated for the rubber too.

2) The vast majority of greens are salvaged without damage. Some do get a little damage, depending on the cuts and angles of the sculpting. However this isn't really an issue as you'll likely get "tins" from the moulding process, which you could then use for further sculpting (assuming they aren't needed for more moulds)

Dewbakuk,

Thanks for the clarification on the greens' exposure to heat.

I really appreciate knowing this information early on in the process, so as not to invest too many hours on this method.

Thanks again.

CC

Some clarification with respect to terms. Formerly an armature is a underlying framework, sometimes called a dolly in the case of a precast framework. The polymer clay body blank you have created has gone beyond armature in my opinion. I would have used less polymer and more green stuff to build up the mass of the body blank. Having said that, I suppose you are headed in the right direction, good fire!

I'd take a look at Kevin White's workbench at Hasslefree for some pointers.
link

From the looks of it, I guess I may have to scrap this clay core attempt then, and re-start with wire and and Green Stuff only.

Oh, well. I knew this idea of mine just sounded a little too good to be good. :)

Thanks.

CC

There is a good book out on sculpting dinosaurs. I forget the name of the author, but I will try to find it. Anyway, he starts with an armature of wire and crunched up aluminum foil and then adds the sculpy. From what I've read in his book and others, such as those of Katherine Dewey, you don't want to use really thick lumps of sculpy.

CC

Id have some concerns because the moulding incolves both intense heat, and pressure.

Worst case scenario the clay may either crack or liquify.

There is an excellent article by sculptor Bob Lippman on sculpting a large creature. You will see he used milliput as the 'core' of the armature. Also some excellent scuplting tips. see it here:

link

Sculpy isnused quite a bit in the garage kit large model ( 1/6th 1/8th scale) stuff . It will NOT handle vulcanization as two part epoxy will . You will have to make an RTV rubber mold first . then cast in in something that will handle the vulcanization .
Gremlins.com should help as it is the web page for large gargage kits and sculpts that use sculpey ( Fimo)

CC: if you're going to try again, and possibly try other sculpts afterwards, look into cheaper putties for bulking. Milliput will probably be the easiest to find, but I'd also recommend apoxie sculpt. Mixing it with GS also creates a composite putty which is very good to work with, IMO.

I know that several manufacturers use "Brown Stuff" to bulk out the figures as it behaves in a similar way to GS but is apparently much cheaper. Doesn't hold detail as well though which is why they finish in Green.

A few remarks on the replies above.

Dewbakuk, I think you are mixing up materials. Brown stuff is actually beter at taking sharp details than GS and is a fair bit nore expensive than GS. It feels like GS when soft but becomes a lot harder making it easier to carve.

As Vermis says, cheaper putties, like Aves, Magic Sculpt or Milliput are sometimes used as a core or for bulking out. Sometimes even low quality DIY putties are used for that. Mixing putties like Milliput with GS gives a mix that is less brittle than MP, becomes harder than GS and which can be easily carved and filed afterwards. I often use this for mechanical parts.

Jimbomar, Bob is actually using baked Sculpy as a core for that model. I.e. a polymer clay.

cfielitz:
Do you mean dinosaur sculpting by Debus and others? Nice book though very hard to get since it's OOP. Got one right here. :)

Cacique Caribe:
"As a sculpting material polymer clay is not the very best."
Not exactly true. Check the masters of MSB toys, Rackham, Fenryl and Warcrow. Many of those are done in FIMO and very finely detailed. The problem with polymer clay is that it can not take pressure and heat as epoxy putties do and are for that reason not that well suited for the traditional vulcanised rubber moulding process. RTV moulds and low-temperature vulcanising has to be used then.

"possibility of bubbling"
This will not happen if the putty has cured already. You do have to be carefull not to have any airbubbles caught in the epoxy puttie as these can expand in the mouldmaking process messing up the details. Fine bubbling (creating a foamlike structure) can occur if you heat epoxy putty in an putty oven that's too hot.

By the way, there are some remarks in the 1listsculpting FAQ on the different materials and the mouldmaking process.

In short: baked polymer clays can be used as a core but since this will make a more vulnerable master you will have to check this with your mouldmaker.

Bye, Ming-Hua

Just to show a quick example of a figure done in FIMO:
creafigs.com/page.php?id=333

It's a 28mm figure done for Warcrow.

Bye, Ming-Hua

Hmm, I was sure it was brown stuff. I knew it took hard detail better but didn't think it could be manipulated as well. However I'm happy to be corrected (could have been an expensive mistake).

Now I'm wondering what I saw used, it was definately brown in colour……….

Thanks for all the good suggestions!!!

CC

CC,
You're working backwards there. Even with miniatures that are sculpted in polymer clay, there is always a wire armature and a solid core of a harder putty underneath (green stuff, magicsculp, apoxi sculpt, milliput). For larger figures (think 1/6 or 1/12 garage kit stuff) the wire can be bulked out with crumpled aluminum foil. The main reason is to prevent the clay from being overly thick (more prone to cracking).

Masters vulcanized traditionally are subjected to tremendous heat and pressure. Poly clay will crumble. It can be cast with lower temp silicone molds or with an RTV silicone. You'd need to talk to your caster first.

Brown stuff can be manipulated just as well as GS. It costs 2-3 times as much as green stuff though.

Ming

Youre right-it is sculpty, I thought is was milliput by the colour. well spotted. An excellent article.

Yeah, it's one of the first of such articles on internet about miniature sculpting and was part of Bob's website.

A quick warning about foil as a core. As Prophet says, that is common with larger sized figures. With miniatures you should avoid that as it can collapse during mouldmaking.

And while we are at it, a tip on working with polymer clays. If you find it hard to get it to stick to the armature: cover the armature with Green stuff. Sick a lot better.

Ok. How about this . . .

If I made the figure entirely out of Green Stuff (the one material I do have plenty of) without a wire armature, would that work?

CC

No, for two reasons. One, green stuff won't stand up on it's own. You won't be able to create legs for the sculpt without wire. Two, without the stiffness of the wire support, the legs are likely to get bent around at unintended angles during vulcanization.

Ming is correct about not using aluminum in the core for a vulcanized mini. However it is something that can be used as filler if you were to sculpt the figure in two halves. The fig can be built around the foil and cut in half. Once done, the foil can be removed, leaving you with a shell and less metal usage per fig.

Prophet, thanks for that foil technique. Didn't think of that before. We've jsut been discussing a few others over here: TMP link and the following two pages.

CC, what is your idea behind not using wire?

Bye, Ming-Hua

"CC, what is your idea behind not using wire?"

This is what I was thinking of doing . . .

I was planning on making a latex mould of the understructure I had done in clay, and then casting it in Green Stuff.

I guess there is no way around it. I will have to start again from scratch.

Thanks for the warnings and suggestions.

CC

There's no reason you can't finish the sculpey piece, you just need to find the right caster.

"I was planning on making a latex mould of the understructure I had done in clay, and then casting it in Green Stuff."

As prophet says, you can still use the clay one if you like. As to "casting" in green stuff (or press moulding actually) in itself, latex is kind of a soft material for this. I'd recommend a harder material like GS itself for the mould. If you want to have wire in it you can put it inside the mould so it's embedded in the GS. You can also do as BOB does, put armature wires around the core for the rest of the figure.