"Reporting IP Infringement?" Topic

Like it or not, IP infringement is stealing. I would report a shoplifter, purse snatcher or car thief. This is no different. And the alleged infringer's circumstances don't matter; nor does whether the owner is making minis or not.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

I can find no fault in your words or sentiment, Extra Crispy.

However, I do have a question. If the holder of IP is not in anyway active in a given market, then are they actually infringed? I suppose that is a yes, but the purse snatcher analogy begins to break down for me at that point. If no one makes the nice plain lead, then what harm?

Is there a lawyer in the house?

They are still infringed as this is a loss of potential income. Doesnt matter if they have business in that market or not.

There are too many lawyers in the bloody house……………

Why doesnt someone call a lawyer fatwah?

The amount of lost revenue for IP infringement of little metal figures is so insignificant that why should it even matter? Methinks these companies going after casters and garage-kit manufacturers is a way for the legal department to justify their existence…

Damon.

It is the IP holder's responsibility to enforce their IP. I needed a "It's no business of mine" option. I settled for "no opinion".

I grew up in a pretty rough neighborhood. In fact, I've seen more illegal activity than I care to remember. I used to walk down the street and get offered drugs at least a dozen times before getting home. Short of physical human assault, I never reported illegal action. Why? First, I liked to be able to walk home without getting beat up or worse. Second, because I'm not a rat. Third, I figured if someone got collared then I'd offer to be a witness. Fourth, if I reported all of the petty crimes I saw in a day, I'd have no time to do anything else.

Fifth, has anyone been to Canal Street in NYC? I cross it every day. If anyone needs a $40 USD Rolex you just let me know.

Quite honestly, I don't care. It is small potatos.

Wow that was a terrible thing for that sculptor to do, even if it were outright intellectual property infringement. The offending sculptor, whomever he is, is now exposed to financial ruin.

I respect intellectual property, myself, and 'tut tut' when I see blatant violations going on, but I would never appoint myself as judge and jury over a small company's fate out of some smug sense of self-satisfaction.

I'd be boycotting the reporting guy if he made stuff I could use. Just for MY smug sense of satisfaction.

Walt

Warner Bros or whoever have no intention of getting into the tupenny world of gaming miniatures, so a semsible attitude would be that these miniatures are a worthy homage to their IP. They will help keep the franchise in peoples' minds rather than doing any harm. Anything else is just lawyers justifying their own existence.

Stealing is keeping one person from earning what is rightfully theirs.

As far as I know, the movie company has not produced such a product (a 28mm scale version of the Predator). Therefore, until they produce such a product, and their sales are jeopardized, they have not become a victim of stealing.

They cannot be losing profit, if they are not producing such a figure and their sales of that figure are suffering.

Being proactive and reporting such activity when it is not harming the movie company financially is tantamount to envy and spite, and the only ones being harmed are the gamers.

I feel that the wrongdoer in such a case would be the reporting party for preventing the gaming community from having a substitute of any kind.

Were they the same ones who prevented us gamers from having Eureka Planet of the Apes figures? As far as I know, the movie company never produced them in metal in 28mm, which means that the movie company's sales were never in danger.

Were they the same ones who prevented us gamers from having Eureka sci-fi Egyptian figures? The same thing, then. And the only ones being seriously harmed are the gamers.

I feel that the movie company has a legal right to profits for sales of their product. However, if they have not been making such a product, their hales are not at risk.

In other words, they cannot claim their sales were stolen when they never made anything like it.

Furthermore, if anyone is going to take action to protect what they feel is theirs, it should be the movie company and not a busybody entity thinking they are being the industry's watchdog.

Screw Frothers and anyone else who takes the self-appointed role of guardian of IP rights when, in reality, the ethical reasons outweigh the legal ones.

Just my two cents.

CC

The offending sculptor was Drew Williams of Wizkids – because they have an AVP line coming out shortly.

As he discovered – the film companies dont give a – its such small fry. Bit of a poke in the eye after you've shelled out for the license eh?

They dont usually care about their licensees either.

The case in point is 28mm scale Predator figures. As nobody makes official figures, I actually do not feel that Mark was wrong to produce them. I have bought a set.

On the other hand, GW paid a huge amount of money to license LOTR for 28mm. In this case, I can understand that the licensee wants to police it. However, I have also bought Ebob's Griffon statues because they completed the look of my LOTR games. I have about 500 official figures so GW took 95% of my LOTR gaming money and they didn't loose anything.

Although these things are technically wrong, I do not think that the movie owners lose out. Actually they probably win because of the continued interest in the films and DVDs and official merchandise.

For the big companies, our little world is far too small to be worth following up. I think that the world is big enough to tolerate a few transgressions. Our hobby will collapse if people do not make the things that other people want to buy.
Mick

I believe these are sold by Copplestone Castings, but I like all their other stuff, so I shall hold my telescope to my blind eye and say I see no IP infringement! Any similarity to characters alive or dead is purely accidental!

lol further to nycadie's list -you're not going to report every IP infringement you see because it would be a full time job! :D

I was under the assumption that most IP holders would issue a C&D if they were concerned about people using unlicenced IP- but the sheer number of Star Trek kits alone seems to imply that some people are less concerned about their IP than others when it comes to the 'small' amount of money involved.

uhh and in case you thought it was me (Walt-anyone else), I started the thread for discussion- I wasnt the sculptor who reported on Copplestone; that came up from another sculptor who posted in the thread.

"Like it or not, IP infringement is stealing. I would report a shoplifter, purse snatcher or car thief. This is no different."

I will share an opinion regarding the first statement. AFAIK, IP disputes in the US are handled in civil court, not criminal court. So there is a distinction between IP "theft" and physical stealing. The former (IP) is addressed in court between two parties as a legal dispute like child custody, divorce proceedings, contract issues, and breaches of rental agreements. The later examples (physical theft) are more often prosecuted by the government on behalf of the community against individual(s) committing a crime. Resident TMP lawyers, please correct me if I'm wrong.

"On the other hand, GW paid a huge amount of money to license LOTR for 28mm. In this case, I can understand that the licensee wants to police it. However, I have also bought Ebob's Griffon statues because they completed the look of my LOTR games."

GW dont own any kind of copyright on Griffin statues – what on earth are you talking about?

Aren't they the Copplestone figures? They've been out for a few years now. Why didn't anyone complain sooner if there was a problem?

I would have voted "it may be IP infringement, but I would not have reported it", but the choice was not there, so no vote from me.

Anyway, I have better things to do with my time than act as a large and presumably profitable firm's volunteer running-dog …

Actually near as I could tell this is old news that just came out in the recent thread- I think people are getting the wrong idea from the poll…

CC says, "Therefore, until they produce such a product, and their sales are jeopardized, they have not become a victim of stealing."

This is a very common misconception. The theory is that an infringer may be diluting (or cheapening) the IP rights of a given company by selling their products in a class not recognized by the IP holder. For example, Tiffany & Co. may not want their trademark placed on packaged meat because Tiffany is not in the business of selling food and in the minds of many may dilute the value of the Tiffany brand. Note this is a theory and the reasonableness of that theory may not always work in practical application.

these are sold by Copplestone Castings…so I shall hold my telescope to my blind eye and say I see no IP infringement!

I also do not see infringement. The Copplestone Models are for Hunter Aliens…not Predator Aliens. The look may be similar but it is certainly not an exact copy.

I say, buy the Copplestone minis and show the corproate ers

I have the "offending" miniatures, painted beautifully. As a direct consequence of buying them, I purchased the Predator special ed. DVD, so the IP owners do benefit indirectly from figures which are based on their creation.
From what I have seen of HorrorClix on the web, and this companies others products, nothing on God's green earth could persuade me to buy into their range. Perhaps the snitch was just trying to take out superior competition

Extra Crispy — 'Like it or not, IP infringement is stealing'

No it isn't. For one thing, there is not such thing as intellectual property. There is a heteroclite collection of restrictive laws with very different purposes—copyrights, trademarks, patents. Lumping them all together and mislabelling it as property leads to your second mistake. Assuming infringing copyrights is theft. It is illegal, but it isn't stealing. Jaywalking may be illegal as well, but isn't theft either.

"Resident TMP lawyers, please correct me if I'm wrong."

i'm no lawyer, but we've talked about this before. in the united states, it is a CRIMINAL and civil issue. it rarely gets to the point of prosecution, but it does happen. i saw a lady arrested for it last week here in houston.

more to the subject, someone once pointed out to me that it can be considered a sin to do the right thing for the wrong reason. that may apply in this case….
it is easy to say, "it's not personal, just business", but it smells funny here. i assumed most designers of any worth know better than to "borrow" ANYTHING from ANY movie studio for sales. at least not without express written permission.

All the act of reporting does is ensure that more lawyers make more money (and that a line of miniatures disappears forever).

And this is a problem just like the one with music and stock photography. Even if you want to license it – you can't because the industry isn't set up for such small requests (even though it could easily be automated online). To get the rights to something requires paying a lot of money to a law firm to negotiate with the property holder's lawyers – and again, the only ones who come out ahead are the lawyers.

Under some circumstances IP infringement is a federal crime.

Which circumstances? These circumstances or other circumstances?

"And this is a problem just like the one with music and stock photography."

Actually there are 2 companies that dominate the licensing of music and represent 90% of the music available today. There are also at least 2 companies acting as agents for images and I believe they are also comparable to the music industry.

There is no such agent for toys.

"Which circumstances? These circumstances or other circumstances?"

In the U.S., I believe the standard is that the infringement be willful and for financial gain.

Why stop at movies?

Let's do the same and report all the figures whose features and names resemble characters in novels, comic books and other sources.

And let's also go against anyone who wants to use generic figures for themes from those movies, novels, comic books and other sources.

Geez.

CC

"I like to support the industry"

"I wouldn't report IP infringement"

Mutually incompatible terms.

reporting suspected IP infringement is a social obligation.

If the IP holder then does diddly squat about it or NOT – it doesn't matter, your obligation is to report it – nothing more. You're not the judge, jury, or even the investigative team.

If you don't, then you aren't a supporter of the industry.

Actually, I find this whole thread somewhat of a contradiction in what goes on here about IP rights. Basically, this page and others hammered Stonewall miniatures when they were accussed of pirating figures, all of which was based on rummors and unsupported statements from distributors who had ended their contracts with that company.

Had Stonewall Miniatures been in a room full of the upset posters, and a rope was handy, he would have been hung up on the spot – without a fair trial.

Now, because one sculptor who is making their money from one company, now licensed to produce a certain figure, turns in another sculptor who is making money via doing a figure without paying for the license, you want to hang the reporting sculptor. Why? Because the company with the license is going to charge more for their figure than the guy who is making them without the license. You may not realize that the sculptor who reported the situation may also get paid a bonus on the number of figures sold, thus figures done without a license do effect his income.

You guys to need to make up your mind, either it is wrong to pirate something, whether it is a figure or IP rights, or its not wrong depending on what a person charges or how it fills out your personal collection.

Basically, three things are being said in the above discussion to make piracy and okay thing. (1) It is alright to pirate an IP as long as the company owning it doesn't already make the figure available, either in the scale I need it or at all. (2) It is alright to pirate something that a big company has because they will never miss the money any way, as they already make too much money. (3) Piracy is okay when the pirated items that I purchase satisfy a person need, such as filling out a collection or giving me the ability to play a game based on a movie that I have seen, or book that I have read, or a favorite TV show.

Actually, I should add a fourth contradiction to this whole discussion, most only really care about copyright, IP rights and pirating when it effects the small guy. Switch the situation where Drew was paid to make something that Copplestone was already doing and everyone would have backed Copplestone against Drew. But, seeing that Drew is working for the big boys, everyone sides with the little guy.

Joel
merrimackminiatures.com

By the way, I am not sure what I would have done, because I don't believe the big company would have done anything about the issue once reported.

The difficulty with the issue is identifying a particular look with the IP. For example, sorcerors, dragons, elves and goblins have been with us forever, they are not unique to Tolkien or his world. So when is an elf a "Lord of the Rings" IP elf, and when is it just another elf? Certainly, the answer lies in the eyes of the beholder and the arguments/briefs made to sustain a case. Similarly, heavily armed and nasty looking aliens abound. Clearly there are unique artistic touches on the movie-specific AVP designs, but how does one separate the sort of similar ones from the spot on ones?

The man did not report copyright infringement.
He gave a link to to MGM's legal dept. to a POTENTIAL copyright infringement, after inquiring on how far copyright can be stretched (i.e.: "is this copyright infringement? link"). A subtle difference, imho.

The Copplestone figs shown in the poll apparently are not copyright infringement. They look a lot like movie Predators, but legally look different enough, afaik.
Just like Rackham orcs look different enough from GW orcs.
And Warhammer elves look different enough from Tolkien elves.

Wrong. That is YOUR opinion and one that doesn't seem to be too popular here. Unless you are saying that the majority of gamers AREN'T supporting the hobby (which is a SILLY proposition at the least)?

John

My reply was to Antenociti.

Thanks,

John

"If the IP holder then does diddly squat about it or NOT – it doesn't matter, your obligation is to report it – nothing more. You're not the judge, jury, or even the investigative team."

Very interesting.

I recently ordered two movies from ebay that were being sold by a movie distributor as the real McCoy. It ended up (and, having the product in hand, I became the "judge, jury, or even (the investigative team") that they were obvious counterfeits. Now THAT is what infringement laws are supposed to protect you from, and THAT is what you should report.

CC

Gentleman,

In talking to several company owners who have taken other companies and individuals to court over this issue, this is the following that they reported on wha the judge had to say when deciding the case…

1. As long as there was a 10% or better change from the origin there was no case.

2. Since the judge is not a wargamer, all figures look the same and he and the rest in the courtroom don't have the fantist idea of what you are talking about.

3. Why don't you stop playing with toys and get a real job! This is an actually quote from a judge to the complaintiff after he ruled against him saying no pirating or IP rights had been violated.

welcome to the real world, and don't forget, it cost a lot of money in lawyer and court fees to get that type of ruling.

Joel
merrimackminiatures.com
oldglory25s.com

I've voted "no opinion" since the question warps the facts.

lol actually Joel you hit on the reason why I had started that thread in the first place- that people seem to be able to demonize one thing while supporting and endorsing the other. Copyright vs IP infringement. I had wanted to see how it was that people seemed to be able to support the paradox- or hipocracy as I originally mispelled it lol

I had hoped to identify at what point the 'shift' in morality happens for people. Goldwyrm actually refined the issue with his questions and that might show where the 'fine point' is…

Can I ask a question, "Why would you report it?"

It seems a lot people would, but even if the conduct is wrong why do it? It's the IP owners job to police IP infringement.

It is an obligation to police criminal behavior.

"To get the rights to something requires paying a lot of money to a law firm to negotiate with the property holder's lawyers…"

Correct, and when there is a market for a product that virtually no one can produce because of these artificial barriers, people will break "the law" to fulfill that market need. Mongoose Games recently pointed out that they were interested in an Aliens game, yet the suits at Fox asking price for the rights was astronomical; far more than even they could afford. However, that doesn't make the Aliens miniatures fan-base vanish, does it? The market still exists, and someone will find a way to satisfy those desires not matter what the law say. If Fox REALLY wanted to secure their IP rights, they'd make their masking price for a more reasonable and cut out the legal bull.

Of course, who actually *gets* the rights is another problem. Topps/Wizkids seems to be able to afford Fox's licensing costs and were able to secure the rights for AvP for HorrorClix. What figures will they produce with the rights? Cheap pre-prepainted, bendy-plastic figures, that look like they came out of one of those vending machines you find in a supermarket annex. Now that may satisfy some, but not me. I want metal or model quality plastic and want them unpainted.

If WizKids is the only "legal" choice, I'd rather encourage "IP infringement."

>"Screw Frothers "

You have obviously not read the thread on the Froth Forum and have embarrassed yourself. I suggest you apologise.

"You have obviously not read the thread on the Froth Forum and have embarrassed yourself. I suggest you apologise."

I have:

"To Frothers:

I am truly sorry for implicating you with my inflammatory remarks.

If anything, this has taught me the value of thinking first and speaking or typing second, and the value of getting all the facts before making an assumption.

Please accept my deepest and most sincere of apologies."

TMP link

CC

"Can I ask a question, "Why would you report it?"

It seems a lot people would, but even if the conduct is wrong why do it? It's the IP owners job to police IP infringement.

It is an obligation to police criminal behavior."

because it often IS criminal behavior and many people are raised to report suspicious activities to authorities. it is thought to help ensure the individual from becoming a crime victim themselves, socially speaking. also, in the long run, it is in the best interest of the hobby overall. many miniature consumers, at one time or another, contribute to this problem. usually it is through ignorance but there are plenty who willfully buy illicit goods. then they'll cry when the legitamate producer goes out of business and their supply of fresh creations dries up.

Wake me up when you guys reach a conclusion..
zzzzzzzzz

I don't think this was an issue with Twentieth Century Fox until recently, as they were not competing with anything as of yet that was officially licensed by TCF. In fact, if anything TCF may have actually benefited from it. As I already had some of these models my interest in the AVP movie had peaked enough for me to buy the DVD (despite the negative reviews), so TCF actually got money from me thanks to Copplestone.

Now that Wizkids has a license to make official Predator, and Aliens, models, and probably paid a high price to get it (I heard that Mongoose attempted to get the AVP license but TCF wanted way too much money for it) and thus want to protect that investment by making sure there is nothing competing with their product. I don't fault them for that, as they have a right to and a valid claim for loss of income. Now that there is an officially licensed product out there and an IP infringement dispute, I'd think that Copplestone should cease making them (although they are beautiful models, and I'd hate to see them go).

As far as these new Wizkids AVP models, all I can say is that regardless of whether the Copplestones (or any other not-Predator models out there) ever existed I still won't be paying very much if any for them. I detest paying artifically inflated "collector" prices for poorly painted, deformed, randomly packed miniatures. So I don't plan on buying the game but I may pick up some predators and aliens if I can get them for less than a $1 USD and they are decent enough that I can clean up and repaint.

Isn't it amazing the length some people will go to explain the rational for "their" toys…

I say people need to think up their own IP and do their own thing. I have always been against ripping off others people's ideas.