"Magic is Technology" Topic

I hinted at this a while back in supposing that JRRT's ME was really a post-singularity society (At least the Eldar and Valar)…

I know that Toklien had no intention of making it thus, as he had no clue as to what the meme describing the Singularity even was… But, he did understand that the "Magic" used by the Valar and Eldar was not what we think of as "Casting of spells", or working occult rites in the dark among burning candles…

He described "Magic" as of being two types:

Lore/Craft, and Acts of Will, which man had little capability of, although there were "a few among the race of men who could make an accounting of themselves in such matters" (HoM-E vol 10… I can't read my writing for the page number).

Lore/Craft is simply Technology outright… Such as the Lamps of the Noldor described in Unfinished Tales: Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin "…the Gelmir brought forth one of the lamps for which the Noldor were renowned; for they were made of old in Valinor, and neither wind nor water could quench them, and when they were unhooded they sent forth a clear blue light from a flame imprisoned in a white crystal." (p.24)

That is so obviously the description of a flashlight ("torch" to the British, and would have been known as such to Tolkien).

The Palantiri, Silmarils, The steel of the eldar, Mithril (Titanium, which requires a high degree of technology to produce), the Rings themselves are all technology of one sort or another that a mechanism now exists to describe…

And, I think that Tolkien himself had thought as much, although he would not describe them in the same words that we would now use.

Now, about that "Will" sort of magic… I have seen it in evidence even today, and among men…

How about the "power" that celebrities seem to hold over their fans? This is nothing more than their use of their will to capture the attention of others.

Anyone who has seen me in person will know that I used to have this quality in spades. It was impossible to NOT notice me if I were in a room… Even if there were others who were taller, had longer hair (my hair was quite short actually), or were "better" looking in a more conventional sense.

I managed for a few years to parlay that skill into quite a tidy sum, and a small measure of celebrity of my own (I have been on the cover of several magazines in TX, NYC, CA, and London, not to mention in several movies, mostly as an extra, but as a bit player in five of them)….

It is this quality, taken to an extreme that Tolkien attributed to the Eldar and Valar. These are also the Post-Singularity races of ME. Their use of technology had risen to a point where they became part of it, and it became part of them, and that technology became part of ME… Morgoth himself was part of ME, as were all of the Vala who helped to create it… Only Morgoth more-so, as the other Vala were confined to only being able to put themselves into one aspect of ME (and to put that one aspect of ME into themselves); Melkö was not so confined.

Eru placed in him knowledge and lore of all areas of ME, only in smaller portions that those who held only one aspect. This still made him massively more powerful than all the others, as he was himself a part of ALL of ME, and all of ME was a part of him (Vol.10 HoM-E). So, to say that the portions were smaller than those held by the other Vala is akin to saying the ∞ as calculated by multiplying 100 by 1/0 is smaller than the ∞ of multiplying 1 billion by 1/0… Obviously, one of those infinities is one billion larger than the other… So to was Melkö just "smaller" (he was the ∞ of 100 x 1/0 of all the areas of M-E, whereas each of the other Valar were the ∞ of 1G x 1/0) than the other Valar. This presence of Morgoth in all of ME is one of the reasons that men are so easily swayed by the Dark Lords and by "evil passions and thoughts". Melkö's will included this in the creation of ME, but he was not able to introduce it into the Eldar, as Eru himself was their creator (as he was on Man, but there are some sigificant contributions by the Valar to the creation of man that they did not have in the creation of the Evles… The Elves were created to Balance what Eru knew would be Melkö's influence upon ME)

What this "Will" allowed those who could wield it to do was to re-write the instructions of either ME or of others… To "Dominate" them, or as Glaurung did to Nienior on top of the Watch-hill near Nargorthrond… He erased part of her "Operating System" as it were (gave her amnesia, and put a "cloud" over her thoughts). This was all of the Dark Lord's most powerful weapon.

Sauron increased his ability to use his will by pouring it into a mechanism used to focus it, and a mechanism that had an AI included with instructions of its own (again, JRRT did not think in terms of this, but it is what his work has shown to be). The Ring, in its creation, had a will of its own, in addition to the will given it by Sauron…

The fact is probably among the main reasons why the state of overall technology did not rise about that of the Middle-Ages in Middle-Earth. The Eldar were probably remaining in ME to guide the Lore/Craft of men away from certain technologies that they knew would undoubtedly be their undoing (as the Eldar had been around for many millennia before men even awoke). Valinor is akin to one of the Hidden Kingdoms in the Final Fantasy games…. It is a place where wonders exist, and man and nature live in a harmony that appears miraculous. M-E is the world outside of that Hidden-Kingdom, where tales of its glory exist, but life is simpler and harder…

It is a very attractive myth… It is one that certainly has me ensnared, as I hope to become one of those who actually builds the Hidden Kingdom for our present day earth*…

I know that this interpretation is going to rankle the hides of many who read it, as often people have this "purity" associated with magic that it is free from the taint of technology… But, all it is is a form of technology in and of itself.

* I am almost certain that in a Post-Singularity society, the world will come to resemble that of ME.. as those who has merged with the technology will seem to be magical, and will leave the world as we now know it, able to return as they please in whatever form they choose.. And, those who do not seek to merge with this technology will probably return to a simpler time, as many of them are wont to do (like my insane English Teacher…) But, there are many who have values that are not as insane as she, who wish to return to simpler times out of better reasons.. and in a Post-Singularity world… Their desires may be indulged…

This is very thought provoking, but I don't know enough about ME to really comment. (And I'm too cynical to believe in the Singularity as brought about by uploaded consciousness.)

Oh… Pah-Leese…

(Sorry for the overly Invective initial comment.. I am writing a paper on myths of The Singularity and this whole "Consciousness Uploading BS is just one of the larger of them.

There is, and never will be any such thing as "Consciousness Uploading". That is one of the many "myths" surrounding the Singularity.

Consciousness Uploading is a Sci-Fi contrivance to describe something that we wish that we could do now to cruise around in mythical playlands of the virtual worlds that we imagine…

Not the actual abilities that a Post-Singularity society would have, where "Consciousness Uploading" would be looked upon as either a quaint notion of the Pre-Singularity ignorance of much of the population, or as an outright stupidity among those who conceived of it.

A rather weak analogy comes in the form of pacemakers and seizure control systems for patients with heart conditions or epilepsy. If you were to get a pace-maker; would you consider yourself as having an "Uploaded Heart"? Your heart would be controlled by a new OS, but the heart would still be there… If at some point, you were able to change your circulatory system to one that did not need blood… Would it still be considered to be "Uploaded"? what about if you found a way to do away with the circulatory system altogether… When I speak of merging with technology, I am speaking of other things entirely.. Like having an artificial limb… hat is a merging with technology… So is having eye-glasses or a hearing aid…

Or… what I am doing Right Now… Typing on a computer that is connected to a vast network of other computers that are all a form of communication to a world that has a life independent of each individual user… I have temporarily merged with that network to use it as a tool.

In the future, that merging will take on more and more "intimate" forms, but I will remain a distinct and discrete portion of that technology that exists outside of and apart from it, even if portions of my "Consciousness" happen to be interacting with it…

Anyway, Consciousness uploading is just an idiotic analogy among what are really primitives when compared to a post-singularity world. I make the comparison between those who are awaiting "Consciousness Uploading" to the Cargo cults of the Pacific Islanders. They may eventually get something that they think is "conscious uploading", but it will not be in the form that almost all now imagine (I have had discussions with Ray (Kurzweil) about this, among others: Ben Goertzel, Eliezer Yudowski, and so on). And, I expect to continue those discussions.. But, the gist of them all: We cannot predict what lies behind the singularity other than the complete destruction of the memes that we now use to communicate our rather quaint (by comparison) ideas and civilization… We have made some pretty accurate guesses about some of the trends that will survive and in what form… But… a Non-disclosure agreement prevents me from discussing most of them, as they are very real technologies that will be arriving within the coming decades… Consciousness "Uploading" will not be among them… But, other forms of interface to the WWW/Net/Mesh will be that will allow you to just "know" stuff that you have "entered into a search engine", which some people will confuse with having their consciousness "out there", rather than the WWW/net/Mesh coming "inside" of them… which is more what will be happening – I have probably exceeded my bounds in stating that… but it is something that I feel is an intuitive concept to those who can put things together correctly)

As to what the Singularity will be brought about by:

It will be brought about by continuing change.

Another Myth that is attributed to the Singularity is that growth/improving capabilities will become infinite. Even Kurzweil does not believe this, but rather than when the growth of a paradigm reaches the explosive stage… The paradigm gives way to a new one that completely changes the rules from the prior paradigm (such as mechanical relays giving way to the vacuum tube, the Vacuum Tube giving way to the discrete Transistor, the Discrete transistor giving way to the Integrated Circuit, and eventually (and very soon too) the IC will give way to a new paradigm.

But, that will not be The Singularity but rather only a portion of it.

The Singularity comes about as a culmination of the technologies of Information Transformation (computers/AI), Human Emulation (Robotic and Genetics), and the control of the discrete quanta (Nano-technology)… At the point where all of these technologies (GNR – Genetics, Nano-tech, Robotics – which itself includes AI, although AI is really a portion of ALL of these technologies) become the same technology….

That will be crossing the Event Horizon of the Singularity.

And, it will be at that point where we will see entities (people, computers, whatever, as at that point the two will likely be the same thing) become as gods to what wil have been the virtual world, and then you will see the creation of life as a form of entertainment:

I happen to plan on creating ME… Becoming Illuvator, and seeing what happens as I put my choir of Ainur together, and have them sing me a world into existence, into which I will travel as an observer of events (A Tom Bombadil if you will – Only I will probably choose a different method and name).

I also happen to plan on creating other worlds as well, and I plan on beginning this well before the Singularity actually arrives. Second Life is a good example of a nascent universe that will eventually grow into a very real place, where people may enter from other "Universes" (this one being one of them… AIs created as strictly silicon/digital entities at first will also be entering into these worlds, and existing as entities/people in them just as you or I would)…

Now… Put all of that into the context of ME…

Elves were around for hundreds of thousands of years before man arrived (I had to go back and check on that, but the ages before the "First" were counted in "Valian Years", which were equivalent to 144 "Solar" years in ME… So, with 4,300 Valian Years passing before the Waking of men, that would be 619,400 years that the elves were around before mankind awoke) s odds are likely that they achieved quite a high level of technology before the awakening of men. Men were no more than a few hundred years old when the Noldor returned to ME, and were VERY primitive when this occurred. The Easterlings were essentially a Stone Age culture until Morgoth taught them to use metals.

The Three Houses of the Edain were taught the same things by the Noldor and Sindar… But, as is constantly referred to… The elves withheld a LOT of "lore" from mankind… and many elves themselves did not know much of the Lore, but could use the technology produced by it (much in the same way that not too many people know how to make a computer… But they are now sure easy to use aren't they?)

Considering that the Elves were tied to Adra… They were part of it, and it part of them, they had an instinctive need and wish to make sure that it remained as uncorrupted as possible.

Even though they may have had vast technologies at their disposal. They knew that the exposure of man to those technologies would only hasten mankind and ME's destruction, and thus their own destruction.

I guess that I need to put all of this down in a bit more organized fashion, as it is a LOT of information, and a LOT of material that it covers.

Even though Tolkien did not explicitly create ME as something similar to Final Fantasy… That is in essence what he created… A Highly technological civilization whose technology was/is so ubiquitous that it appears to the ignorant as "Magic"

Well, this discussion is 'interesting' but I think JRRT wrote a STORY (in book format) as a creative exression for it's own sake (and his own enjoyment.)

Something like creation being His (Yes, capital H as in God) expression.

Post-singularity? Not. Not even pre-singularity. <grin> Sub-creation? Yes.

It's a story using "myth" – an extremely powerful tool related to truth indeed – but it's 'just' a mythic story.

As always, JI, an interesting expression on your part mixing creative imagination with a powerful intellect but whatever elements of your exposition come to pass (and some must given the realities of this world) LOTR is 'just' a mythic story to be enjoyed, explored and criticized as appropriate. I hope you continue to do so.

Gracias,

Glenn

Some people are so full of themselves that stifling is the only way to stay out of the DH.

Glenn… I think that you are attributing too much to the word "Singularity", which in this case is only a metaphor for a society that has surpassed the need for a physical expression.

The Valar and the Eldar existed not as physical entities, but as a form of pure information of "who they were"… The Valar much more so that the Eldar, who could wrap themselves in any form they so chose within the bounds of their meme in ME, discarding it completely if they so chose. The eldar it would seem existed in bodies only as a means of interacting with the physical world, and when not in physical form had their "information" (Spirit) stored in the Halls of Mandos; to what end JRRT never said, as I think that this was something that made him as uncomfortable as his conception of the creation of Orcs, which he outright refused to answer to his own son's direct questioning… referring only to how they might reproduce after their creation (which was itself something he held himself in shame for having conceived t would seem)…

The term here "Singularity" only implies that the society of the Eldar and Valar did not depend upon the contrivances of mechanics and industrialization, but was rather a society of the mind, one where the conception of an ideal could be manifested through the "Force of Will", which is really nothing more than saying "They created through an act of thought, or manipulation of information", as what is the ability to create a thing, but the following of instructions for its "Construction", which is itself but information.

In this manner… Valinor WAS/IS a post-singularity society. It existed outside of and above a need for an industrialized base.

In the work I am doing for "Myths of the Singularity", this is among the most prominent… That the "post-singularity" world will be a shining utopia or a dismal distopia (The duality that Tolkien imposed upon the world), but rather is just a place (and time) where the rules for having stuff, getting stuff, needing stuff no longer apply. All needs change to that of the need for information… For "Lore" as it would be expressed in Tolkien's language.

Valinor was a place with no needs as recognized by the men of ME, there was food for the hungry, water for the thirsty, clothes for the naked, and no need for physical shelter beyond the desire to clothe nakedness, which I suspect was only done for Tolkien's Catholic sense of propriety. All concerns in Valinor were of things "not of this world" (a quaint way of saying that normal men could not conceive of them), which is a key feature of a post-singularity society… We just don't know what the needs of concerns of such a society will be, but they will not be for want of physical needs, as once a society passes from an industrial base to an information base… All physical needs can be met with the alteration of a simple variable place-holder… Not enough food… Change the value of its variable place-holder… Not enough water… again… Where is the water variable… Oops… Its only set to 1x10^10, we need to change that to 1x10^16.. Done… more water…

Even physical energy becomes nothing more than "Information"…

Thus it is in Valinor… However, it is the mythic nature of the work that places constraints upon it… This can be looked at as the Operating system for the "universe" in which Middle-Earth exists…

As for John's need to stifle and stay out of the DH…

I am thrilled that i have managed to find a thread that so rankles some that they feel the need to use those functions…

I take it as a mark of pride that I have NEVER stifled another member of TMP no matter how stupid I thought their views… Ignorant would be a better word, because I have found few on TMP to be outright stupid: Idiots, Ignorant, or dumb… Yes… But the distinction between those qualities and "stupid" is in that only the stupid truly lack intellect… All other qualities that we often mis-use to imply a lack of IQ are actually only the lack of the ability to make use of that IQ in one way or another… Idiocy: well, look at the root: Id… Dumb, lacking the ability to communicate that intelligence, and ignorant, lacking the education to cross contexts of information (The same can be said of idiots, but their lack of ability comes not from lack of education, but from lack of desire or ability to see beyond their own id)…

And, the Doghouse… I don't think that I have ever been dog-housed for loosing my ability to control my tongue. It has always been for violations of policy, and then I have managed to have that dealt with by "The editor" when I realized my mistake, and changed the phrasing of my postings.

Lastly, as for JRRT's intent… I am sure that his intent was to create "just a story", as he knew nothing of any of what I am discussing, but that still does not change the fact that what he created was in essence a description and story contained within a world created by a post-singularity entity (which "God" could be considered to be, however "Blasphemous" some may take that to be – I do not think I have ever made any secret of the fact that I do not believe in any modern or ancient religion, nor believe in the conceptualization of "God" as those religions set forth… This does not mean that I do not believe that there may have been a creator of sorts… But, I am not arrogant enough to make any assumptions about its intent. methods or designs any more so that I imagine that the bugs are sitting around considering our intents of creation when we spill food on the floor that they then see as "mana from heaven"…)

>>Lore/Craft is simply Technology outright… Such as the Lamps of the Noldor described in Unfinished Tales: Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin "…the Gelmir brought forth one of the lamps for which the Noldor were renowned; for they were made of old in Valinor, and neither wind nor water could quench them, and when they were unhooded they sent forth a clear blue light from a flame imprisoned in a white crystal." (p.24)<<

Nickola Tesla is reputed to have discovered how to create devices that tap directly into the earth' electro-magnetic field: thus you have limitless, free, polution-free energy. The film "The Prestige" alluded to this, by showing a field of lights burning in the snow with no apparent source of power. So, I would go for that rather than "flashlights" requiring some kind of batteries….

Oh, and I happen to define our age as an age of "magic". What else could it be, compared to earlier, low tech ages? "Magic" is just something that you can't work or understand yourself. Our age is like the fantasy stories where magic is rampantly common; everyone in our age can "work" the "magic", but very few can create it….

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

--Arthur C. Clarke

[uploaded consciousness is a load of tosh and has nothing to do with the singularity] (My paraphrase of Judas' reply to me.)

I wasn't sure if you were part of the techo-apocalyptic crowd. (You know, the ones who consider themselves too "smart" to be Christians, but still long for the "Singularity" rapture (as revealed by the prophet Kurzweil) to wash away the world as we know it.)

I do really like your reinterpretation of ME as a post-technological singularity setting. It's a fun way of trying to interpret Tolkien's mythology through the eyes of technology. To me, it's supremely ironic, since the whole LoTR series seems profoundly anti-technological and anti-democratic. I don't share his views, though I do enjoy his literature. :-)

Nickola Tesla is reputed to have discovered how to create devices that tap directly into the earth' electro-magnetic field: thus you have limitless, free, polution-free energy. The film "The Prestige" alluded to this, by showing a field of lights burning in the snow with no apparent source of power. So, I would go for that rather than "flashlights" requiring some kind of batteries….

See… This is exactly the kind of "Myth" that I am referring to…

If you had a small light that "lit" up when you pressed a button… Wouldn't you call that a "Flashlight" (Torch) regardless of how its power was supplied?

People… you need to begin separating the paradigm from the technology…

Flashlight: a tool for creating small amounts of light that can be conveniently carried

Computer: a device for doing computation (This can be as simple as your brain.. a set of toothpicks that you use to move from one pile to another, a rope of knots, an abacus… or Blue Light (one of the as yet unveiled IBM gizmos that is supposed to work in the petaflop range)…

Telescope: a device that allows you to see a long way "Tele" (distant), scope (viewer/eye)… This way be a simple rolled up tube to allow you to more easily separate a distant object from its surroundings to a gravitic lensing system that is light years across and an immeasurable focal length

Shoes: Objects that protect your feet

And, lastly, to adress another of Lugal's points…

LotR seems profoundly anti-technological…

As I keep saying… Post-Singularity societies may present themselves to you however they see fit, so that while you are seeing one thing (A woman sliming at you beginning to reveal herself seductively), your friend who is standing no more than six inches away is seeing a grotesque spider about to bite your head off… He ay even see it bite your head off and your vision begins to slowly caress… well, you get the idea… I hope…

So, as you yourself pointed out above… The whole of M-E is in a time where certain technologies are just so ubiquitous as to be completely unnoticed as technology… Few people think of a toothbrush as technology, but it is a great wrk of engineering and technology, yet, nearly everyone in the civilized world has one.

The same can be said of M-E… In Valinor, everyone has these little "trinkets" (like toothbrushes) that they just take for granted, yet in primitive M-E, people marvel that they are able to keep their teeth so clean (just a metaphor for all of the various technologies available to the Eldar that seem to be "Anti-technology", because, remember… They are trying to limit and control the specific technologies that mankind has available to him…

Let me go back to that toothbrush for a second…

You might think "It wouldn't do any harm for the Eldar to teach the men of M-E how to make toothbrushes…

On a basic level, that is true, but… What do you teach him? Do you teach him "Take this stick… Rough up the ends of it, and them just rub it across your teeth and gums… Oh, and that tree over their has medicinal properties to it that make better toothbrushes (That kind of knowledge takes a lot of science to have found out… especially considering if you can offer mankind this next example) Or, do you tell man about plastics, and how they are made from a material that can be formed from stuff called "Petroleum" and from various plant fats that have been "Chemically" altered, and then how to mass produce those "Toothbrushes"…

Do you see where that second example is going… Odds are VERY likely that the Eldar could produce all manner of plastics… But they didn't, becuase they had no need to resort to a technology that was then beneath them, but millennia above the men of M-E, and technology that would have been infinitely destructive to M-E (The orcs were the embodiment of this type of industrialization and mechanization).

The whole concealment of technology was an explicitly intentional thing on his part, as is the expression of some supremely anti-democratic ideals… He tended to believe that the most expedient method of rule (and most fair) was through a system of enlightened-monarchy, where the monarchy (The vala being the ultimate representation of this) would have more of the "equation" visible to them than would the common man. And, that rule would be FOR the people rather than for the monarchy… All through his works, it is when the rulers rule for their people that success is found, and when they rule for themselves, Morgoth of Sauron (A Dark Lord) is able to sneak in and screw things up…

But, that is another topic…

JRRT's work was also a commentary upon population explosion. His works show that the highly populated areas that have grown beyond their ability to support the population rapidly fell under the sway of "The Shadow". Even in the height of Númenórë, the population only expanded slowly and the need to "conquer" new lands was more out of a reaction to stop the spread of that shadow (at first) than it was to provide room for a population that could not be supported…

BTW, I am an acquaintance of Kurzweil's, and hopeful friend… eventually (He knows my name, and what I look like: i.e. can recognize me in a crowd. We exchange email often, and he has been helping me with my work on Myths surrounding the Singularity), and "His" vision is yet another of those myths… He never claims it to be something that will be utopian or distopian… Just very, very different… He does offer some views of potential utopian technologies… But, even those have the potential for mis-use… He has been made a prophet against his will more or less… How easily people seek to make others responsible for their own vision and goals…

As far as sharing Tolkien's views… I share them to an extent, just like I share those of Paine, Jefferson, and Adams… I believe that the common man is incapable of ruling himself or of making intelligent decisions, and as such should not be allowed to participate in his own rule unless he has made himself a responsible part of society (Through either higher education, service to his country, or the ownership of a portion of that country)…

Those views are as misunderstood as is the Singularity, and people will rail against them without first realizing that everyone born has the opportunity to fulfill one of those requirements with ease…

If you do not seek to fulfill one of those requirements… Then you are probably just food for the demagogues… This is not always the case, and there will always be some who slip through the cracks, but I believe that it would be less so than in our current system…

@Judas- I can see what you are getting at, I think the problem people are having is that you keep using ME as an example, even though (by your own admission) Tolkien did not write it as one. I believe there are fantasy stories that are written with this exact (or fairly similar) idea in mind, however, so maybe it would help to use them as an example?

-Will

The purpose-written post-technic or post-Singularity fiction out there is written as SF instead of fantasy in most cases, and is also not nearly as well known. Most of it is also clearly "merely" post-technic, and usually because of a violent apocalypse.

…

(I feel several long meandering responses bubbling just under the surface. This is me squashing them.)

@Farstar- I'm not arguing that Middle Earth is more familar then any 'post-singularity as fantasy' world. Dut if you're going to be using something as an example, wouldn't it make sense to use a setting that's, well, an actual example of what you're discussing?

I find the idea of Middle Earth as a post-singularity world interesting, but it obviously was not intended to be one, so it somewhat clouds the points the OP is trying to make, imho.

-Will

My point was that examples that nobody recognizes don't make particularly good examples even if they *are* good examples.

wminsing,,

That is just my point…

It doesn't matter that JRRT didn't explicitly write them with this in mind.

What he did write has the following characteristics:

"Magic" is a component of the world that is instigated by two methods:

Lore/Craft (technology)

Will (The expression of personal information that overwrites that of others).

That he did not know what a technological singularity is/was would not have prevented him from writing a story in which in had occurred… as most "fantasy" when you get down to it is just another form of technology, using different mechanisms to operate.

"…Glenn… I think that you are attributing too much to the word "Singularity", which in this case is only a metaphor for a society that has surpassed the need for a physical expression…"

Okay, I maybe doing that.

And

"…I am sure that his intent was to create "just a story", as he knew nothing of any of what I am discussing, but that still does not change the fact that what he created was in essence a description and story contained within a world created by a post-singularity entity (which "God" could be considered to be, however "Blasphemous" some may take that to be – I do not think I have ever made any secret of the fact that I do not believe in any modern or ancient religion, nor believe in the conceptualization of "God" as those religions set forth… This does not mean that I do not believe that there may have been a creator of sorts… But, I am not arrogant enough to make any assumptions about its intent. methods or designs any more so that I imagine that the bugs are sitting around considering our intents of creation when we spill food on the floor that they then see as "mana from heaven"…)"

I was pretty sure of your theological (or would that be non-theological?) bent. I know you know I never used the word blasphemous but just to be clearer – I am not commenting on your position/topic as negative criticism of such as much as thinking it's a use of JRRT's world never intended by the author. After your last post I am seeing your intent is different then what I originally percieved…

So, I'll simply let my comments stand.

Gracias,

Glenn

Wow, just looked. 35 stifles.

LOL, well at least you are not boring people! With only 1 I may be doing that… <VBG>

Gracias,

Glenn

Yes…

I would really like to know what those Stifles are for…

It gives me a little bit of the giggles to think that so many would take something like this so very seriously as to need to stifle someone…

Jeez… "Holy Jeebus," as Homer would say, "those people look P----ed off…"

Not that it is germaine to this discussion, but most of them were probably picked up at this TMP link

Topics with strong opinions, and all…

Oh, yeah… I forget that some people can't read… and then to further their ignorance, they stifle the information…

<shrugs> fine, YMMV and all that, but I think you're undermining your arguement through the example you've chosen.

-Will

I don't see how.

"Technology" doesn't have to be "obvious" in order for it to exist.

If I were to say the words: "Throw a sharpened stick at you"

What would you think?

Would you think:

He's going to throw a spear at me.

???

Or, would you think:

He's going to shoot me with a gun.

???

Both are just sharpened sticks… One just happens to be a shorter "Stick" that is made of metal… And propelled by a different "hand", but it is still being "thrown".

paradrigm, not mechanism… That's what you need to be looking at.

The actual window dressing matters not a whit.

One of the reasons ME is a good example is the Elves, who clearly are post-industrial, with numerous hints at seamlessly integrated technology…

smokingwreckage,

That is exactly my point… The Eldar technology is so advanced that they can present it in a way that inspires mystery and awe, yet does not frighten those who they wish to guide. It is packaged in a way that makes it seem as if they have some great power (which they do), that is beyond the scope of man to try to grasp, which it wouldn't be… Just dangerous for them to do so, which is why the Eldar and Valar wish to keep Man at such a low level of technology*

*This IS something that Tolkien explicitly intended. That mankind would never have the need in M-E to become an Industrial society, and would thus be able to move from being pre-industrial directly to post-industrial without having to go through the messy "industrial" part. I am certain that Tolkien did not think that it would be digital technologies and information technologies, but the mechanisms he envisioned were from paradigms that could not have come from any other source. All he knew was that the Valar and Eldar had at their command the powers of creation as given to them by Eru/Illuvatar. What are information technologies at their fullest but the complete and utter powers of creation (Genetics, Nano-technology, and AI): The power to create life from nothing (Genetics and nano-tech), the power to create something from the "essence" of the universe (nano-tech), and the power to see the future to an extend (predictive AI)… All of these technologies combined give you the ability to do what even now we would call magic (as someone has pointed out above).

We live in an age when life itself can be created from Nothing (Howard Hughes/Harvard medical constructing the first ever completely artificial cell to undergo mitosis (cell division)), when we can press a button and see our visions created from the very basic building blocks (3D printing), and all of these are in just their beginning stages.

When they are mature, and as widespread as the telephone or television… It will seem as if we can do Magic.

Not everyone will understand how it is done, and there will be a very few who are at the very core the creators of this technology (Just as Fëanor was in M-E, and the various smiths and craftsmen among the Eldar at Nargothrond and Gondolin, and then later in Eregion/Eriador by Celebrimbor – and many, many to boot who worked with Biology, genetics, and so forth).

What were Morgoth's creations of Orcs, Trolls, Balrogs and so forth bu genetics experiments on an evolutionary scale (he conducted many of these experiments over thousands of years in the Ages before the First, when years were counted by the Valian system (144 solar years per "Valian" year, but since there was no "Sun" yet… That would just be an estimate. It still meant that those "Thousands" of years, were in actuality 100's of thousands of years… Well time enough for evolution to take its course in a breeding program designed to produce a race by simple Mendelsian methods… Much less if you have at your command the rules for genetic encoding yourself, which Melkö no doubt had considerable knowledge of).

I don't see how using ME is undermining the argument, when it is at the very crux of it.

Just because you don't see cars, telephones, and airplanes, doesn't mean that the paradigms for those technologies do not exist (Cars, the Naugrim had plenty of such devices in Belegost, Nagrod, and Khazad-Dûm, The "palatiri" were essentially a combination of telescope and telephone. They were used for a very, very long time to communicate between Gondor and Arnor, and between M-E and Valinor (Eressëa only), and Airplanes… The Númenórëans in some of Tolkien's Stories from The Histories of Middle Earth have the Númenórëans flying about in great "Air-ships" propelled by both the wind and some form of "engine" (The device in question sounds like a Magnetic Hydrodynamic Propulsion system: They had "No moving parts", yet were able to force the air through them to propell the ships… That sounds to me like an MHD system…). He later questioned including them, but it was something that the Eldar and Valar would have known how to do… Ëarendil's ship is a perfect example of just such a thing… So are Dragons come to think of it. Ancalagon was large enough to move whole armies on his back)

Just because it doesn't have cogs, gears, whirling contraptions, thingamajigs, do-hickies, electronic gizmos, and such doesn't mean that it is not technology.

Our bodies are an idea example of a technology: It is called biology, and genetics will allow us to construct organisms that will be able to behave like a computer eventually… It may even allow us to produce animals (or ourselves) capable of changing shapes (My, that sounds as if it is a shape-changer from a fantasy book… or a were-wolf, vampire, or Balrog – who are said to be able to change shape, along with most other Maia and Valar)…

Yet, that is still technology, and absolutely no "Cogs, gears, thingamajigs, contraptions or gizmos will be involved…

Think Paradigm people… NOT mechanism (The paradigm is: "What does this technology achieve?"… Not "By what manner does this technology achieve its end?")

OK… So, some think that I am hurting my Argument by using the comparison of Middle-Earth.

Then how do you explain CJRT's comments on JRRT's (His fathers) story and notes concerning the Noldor in Eregion who were seduced by Annatar (Sauron):

"… The particular branch of High Elves concerned, the Noldor or Loremasters were always vulnerable on the side of 'Science or Technology,' as we should call it…" (The Unfinished Tales p. 266 note: 8, second sentence)

I told you that Tolkien included technology, and that the 'magic' was/is technology, and I probably could have been clearer in explaining that Tolkien explicitly did not describe the construction of M-E in terms of the modern meme of the Singularity, but that he explicity did intend that the paradigm that the Singularity represents was present in M-E, and that Magic explicitly was/is a form of technology/science…

So, his intention was all along that it should represent a society in Arda that was separated into that of the Hither Lands of Middle Earth in the East, which were meant to remain free of the taint of mechanization in all of its negative aspects. This meant that the younger race(s) (Men, Hobbits), needed to be slowed in their development and access to these technologies, as they did not possess the connection to Adra that the Valar and Eldar did, which would allow them to "Feel" any damage they might be doing to M-E as a result of their use of science and technology.

This allowed them to build and develop their technologies in concert with and under the tutelage of Aulë so that they would not fall prey to the seduction of some of those technologies and the power they imparted, which is what happened to Melkö and Sauron (a Maia of Aulë BTW, which is why Melkö co-opted him).

The Eldar then were brought to Aman so that their technological society would not be a temptation to man to seek out these powers without the racial maturity that the eldar had from 100s of thousands of years of development before mankind awoke (detailed in my previous posts), and M-E was supposed to remain a pastoral paradise for mankind to grow and develop free from the cares that the long lives of the Eldar brought them, which is why they needed the technological society, to provide them with something stimulating to do for all of the millennia they would be around before the final shaping of the world in which all of Eru's creations would take place (Yes… Including Man, Dwarves, Elves, and even Sauron, Morgoth/Melkö, and probably all of his Balrogs and Dragons, Orcs, Trolls, and such)…

Even though these were created as "Corruptions"… Even the corrupt can be purified through some process…

As a sort of example of this… I use the image of the Orc Shaman in Isengard, and later in Minas Morgul's host. He was still an "Evil" being/creature at this point, but he was created by PJ with a sense of something pure still within. He looked like he was the only Orc who could have got a date for the prom, and he was one of the few who had blue eyes (actually, the color changed from time to time depending upon the photo shoot, but generally, blue eyes were considered a color of purity)

Here he is (I couldn't find the picture of him Blue eyed, I have it on a post-card that I have of him):

picture

I need to go buy some stuff from eBay now…

Interesting but I am dropping out of the conversation now because it seems to have gone in a direction that I find outside my AOI.

Oops, Guv-Speak, my apologies; Area of Interest.

Gracias,

Glenn

After reading this I wonder if one didn't conceive the other. Maybe to many people read too much into a story and built an argument first then the theory second.

It would be like saying America can only have 50 states because thats how many stars are on the flag.

I am not so sure…

For one… I am not seeing that people are completely too understanding of exactly what a post-human technological society would look like.

To much fiction has been devoted specifically to that issue that is just downright wrong (I am having to struggle through some incredibly bad stuff to write the "Myths of the Singularity" paper/story – non-fiction… I guess that would be essay then… Even if the essay has now gone past 30 pages), and too many people base those impressions upon the fiction rather than the fact.

What Tolkien wrote is by no question a work of fantasy, or "Imagination", which is what "Fantasy" is.

We often forget that what we now call "Sci-Fi" is really just a work of fantasy… It is some guy (The author) "Fantasizing" about how things would be n years into the future… It is a work of "imagination"… Just like what we like to traditionally call "Fantasy" seems to involve knights and quests and magical thingies…

Never mind that the grand-daddy of the modern fantasy never had a single spell thrown in it, and that EVERY "Magic" item contained in the book was a work of "Craft", which the author specifically defined (see quote above) as being a form of technology…

I am just dumb-founded that no-one has bothered to think about that…