"Public Statement from Wai Kee Hui Regarding Wargames Factory" Topic

Lonnie –

There's a number of problems with your statement:

1. All the invoices (I believe there were three) that were outstanding at the time of the equity transfer were disclosed to both George Sivy (the new business manager of WF) and the attorney. Along with this – I also made it very clear that Triangle had not invoiced the company for work performed in quite some time and gave an estimate of what was owed. Unfortunately, when I was "canned" as George put it – Triangle created invoices that were back-dated to cover the periods in question even though the actual invoices weren't created until January '11. So technically they fall outside of the agreement and I've already told them that I will personally take care of the remainder that WF fails to pay.

I'm not going to be the one who fails to pay a non-profit because I can get off on a technicality.

2. I wasn't "canned" as George Sivy put it – until January 7th – not the end of December – unless you knew something I didn't? The email you forwarded was sent to you on January 6th and in all honesty I'm not sure why it caused such a problem because it was a list of the items that were on the boat with the corresponding list (about 3x as long) of the things that were supposed to be on the boat) The former Mattel executive Wai Kee had brought in to vette the agreement and help advise the company was probably more irate than I was during the entire fiasco!

3. You had at least one Skype conversation with Wai Kee as far back as early December in which you presented your strategy for creating Games Workshop proxies which you followed up with a document outlining that strategy.

4. Quick edit – also, Wai Kee gained control of the company in August 2010 – not October.

Thanks,
Tony

Tony Reidy
Defiance Games
defiancegames.com

YouTube link

I do not have a dog in this fight. Except I stood my ground with my friends and did not start buying WF WSS figures (thank god, no guns, cavalry and I doubt there will ever be). I am bummed about the Romans though they did paint well. But from reading all these posts I do not really believe anything that Lonnie said once he brought the fact (?) that his family was threatened. I really do not believe this since this would undermine any criminal investigation that would be on going with death threats. I know I would take every bit of info to the Police and prosecute to the full extent of the law.

I really do not know who to believe since I have never met any of the people involved. I here a lot of people talk highly about the old WF team. Tony would be well served to let Lonnie hang himself with the new WF. And if Tony's company falls on it's face well, maybe WF was right on letting him go. Time will tell. I for one am looking foward to Defiance Games products.

Now back to the project I was talked into Warlord Games ECW.

Hey Tony (or Lonnie if they would finish anything get to the states but I doubt it) How about Koreans or Ming Chinese for the Imjin war? Mainly to fight my hoards of Perry Samurai. I guess if they were made I would have a dog in the fight.

I don't think Lonnie's helping his case unless he can produce proof to local law enforcement of these death threats. Sounds pretty extreme even for the wargaming community, as extreme as they can be sometimes. Aside from a couple of people nailed for fraud and identity theft, a few more for copyright infringement and a whole bunch for plain old stupidity, I haven't heard of anyone in the community murdering anyone over a figure manufacturing company.

I'm gonna sit back and watch the cat fight. John, please pass me a bottle of the Yuengling. Weaselhoffen.

Oh, for G_d's sake, stop this asinine fighting in public! Take to court or let it die a natural death.

I am done reading this soap opera, I want nothing to do with either company, and I am disappointed in the behavior of all involved, including myself for reading all this drivel!

Gracias,

Glenn

Hi Glenn – I'd really rather not be talking about this anymore myself either, but when someone says things that are either misleading or outright untrue on a public forum, I can't sit here and ignore it.

But, yes, please stop reading for your own sake! ;-)

Thanks,
Tony

I really wish people would keep their business dealings and their arguments to themselves, or at least out of hobby forums.
This is like listening to Democrats and Republicans sniping at each other with "He said/She said" bickering.
You know what?
I DON'T CARE ABOUT HOW OWNERS – OLD OR NEW – TREAT EACH OTHER.
Not because I don't care about the hobby in general or the company or product in particular, but because IT'S NONE OF MY DAMN BUSINESS.
And wailing about it in public will have absolutely ZERO effect on whether or not the problems get solved or whose fault anything is.
Sort it out, pay your bills, make your product and RUN YOUR OWN LIVES.
This sort of nonsense is really a huge waste of TMP bandwidth, and my time.
Back to online games, I guess.

Koreans and Ming Chinese, Koreans and Ming Chinese. Once you get the bugs and there "Targets" done you will need a new line.

Come on Tony, All the cool kids want Koreans and Chinese. Okay probably not, but I can hope.

This is all just a reminder that even though we love this hobbby, those who make the products we buy are running a business -- even if it's on the side. The only ones who don't run it as a business are those who give away their products (usually rules) for free.

But figure manufacturers don't have that luxury. It costs real money to start a small business, and it takes real money to keep it running. And yet we frequently give successful vendors crap if they make "too much" money, because they aren't following the true path of doing it for the love of the hobby. To the manufacturers we love, they still need the money to stay in business, grow, sustain the products, and still put bread on the table.

Is the former Mattel executive now in therapy after this whole debacle? Just reading this thread has me wanting to get medicated.

I too think the $250,000 sounds excessive, and would indeed not be surprised to learn that it includes multiple charges (with exaggerated profits) for refused shipments that failed to meet agreed upon quality standards— that is, money that actually isn't owed.

I also suspect that the amount is bogus because it's rather clear that no effort is currently underway to obtain that money. I'm sorry, but nobody, and I mean nobody, just writes off $250,000 without making some legal attempt to obtain that money. I realize that WF was an LLC, but I'm wondering just how "immune" LLC status really renders a businessman with severe business debts and determined creditors. I'm guessing not all that much, when push comes to shove. Granted, seizure of the business and its IP could be considered part of that return, but $250,000? Sorry, the IP couldn't possibly be worth anything close to that, and as for the business assets, they clearly weren't worth anything either— what could they have had besides rental space, cheap furniture, office supplies and a handful of used computers? If they had $10k of value total in those assets, I'd be shocked. So if Mr. Hui/Wai is indeed trying to recover $250,000 out of this mess, he's a pathetic businessman himself, or has received remarkably bad advice. (Hmmmm.)

I also can't much credit the comments of a company that just put out that incredibly sophomoric and ill-conceived "Press Release" earlier this week.

But there was at least one interesting idea in the mix: Someone in MA should contact Triangle and see who they have a better experience with— the guys next door (who seem to still have a positive relationship going), or the guys in Utah and China. I suspect I know the answer.

I know and like Howard. That colors my opinions on this topic.

Other than that, pass the and the .

GET OUT OF MY INTERWEBS!

"Come on Tony, All the cool kids want Koreans and Chinese. "

yes, we do.

Leland R. Erickson

All I can say is that for me personally, based on both side's public statements and demeanor – I wouldn't buy any product from either company moving forward.

Wow. Imagine the response if this had been about something important.

whatever!

A toy soldier company in the red and facing closure? huh…Who'd have thunk it?

Leland, some of us want Mongols and Samurai, oh and Islamic armies of the Crusades, done in plastic as well as Koreans and Various Chinese periods. I still want to beat you in a Waring States games, and as before I call dibs on the Qin!

BTW, Mr Mullins, I will believe you and your family received "death threats" when you post the police and FBI reports, not before.

Oh, and Bill or John, could you please remove the letter and this thread? Even I am sick of hearing all this over and over again. Tony and Howard have set the record straight, yet again, so no sense in having this take up TMP bandwidth.

From a purely business angle I see the situation as this.

Company runs up debts with main supplier (plastics are a big up front investment, the 250k number is actually much lower than I would have expected).

Supplier puts them down the rung as far as supply is concerned as they (probably) have paying customers to service as well.

Company admits to no way to pay, Supplier offers to buy out in exchange for debt right off (not an unusual business practice).

Company neglects to mention things at handover or they are worded in an ambiguous way (unissued invoices being expected to be paid by new owner, but no papertrail of them. You do not on a takeover accept these as the bills that actually arrive could give you heart failure. You work purely on what is owed on takeover day.)

Company then complains that new owners want to run the business they have bought.

As this is corporate business, both sides should have lawyered up long before signing anything and definately run any open letters or public statements past them.

Doing so is not the 'shifty' action the Supplier has been accused of but sensible business.

I think it is very nice of Tony to garantee to pay the bills to triangle that are his responsibility to pay.

Wow, can't we tell that metal fans predominate here.

Just how much do you guys think a plastic mould costs? These are expensive, hence reason they went to China. $250k sounds like small beer for a plastics figure company.

Airfix mentioned hundreds of thousands to make a mould in the 90s.

The actual cost of the figures is pennies – all cost is in start up production of the mould.

But as to the arguments either way – meh!

Everything here is just gossip, rumours and press releases which are next to worthless for forming a true picture of the situation. As wargaming has no such thing as investigative reporters you are unlikely to see any unbiased facts on the Internet (not that reporters don't have their own agendas of course )
Probably the only people with even a vague idea of what actually went on behind the scenes that do not belong to either company would be the people running Triangle's fulfillment center, as WF were based in their building during that period.
I suggest anyone that cares that much about all this email the manager there link rather than just keep making wild guesses on this forum.

To use an old saying, the first casualty of war is the truth – he said, she said they said, we said…it's all a bit boring.

"Mr. Sivy's comment that I had "big balls" to ask for them. Apparently I didn't ask nicely enough."

Yeah, I can relate to that from my dealings with a different wargames company large enough & old enough to know better. Apparently contracts can be ignored if you don't behave like a lackey.

Its strikes me it would be interesting to hear Triangle's version of events, as they are a third party who were left short?

?

The pricing on metal plastic molds has gone down a lot over the last couple of years, especially when they directly produce from 3D to the metal mold. I've heard numbers mentioned of around $30k per mold (unknown if that's the price in China or in the UK).

I've had quotes for plastic bases (from the UK) from ~$6000 to ~$8000 per mold, depending on the on the size of the base (25*25mm to 25*125mm). Add to that the plastic and labor costs of actually producing the casts (which is ~1% of the mold cost per 1000 casts, depending on quantity).

The $250k mentioned would be for a lot of molds and production, probably for a release or 4-6.

I believe the plastic production company is called 'Ghost Studio', they also produce plastics for Battletech (CGL), Exellis (Bastion), and apparently some Gundam toys or models. So I seriously doubt that WGF was some sort of Chinese 'experiment'.

It's also news to me that GW has moved all plastic production to China, I know they moved some production to China for some of the larger plastic products (such as the Realm of Battle Boards and the Fortress of Redemption). If this is true, does anyone have some sort of source quote.

I think that Tony made some horrible business decisions and that Mr. Wai isn't a horrible person. But this wouldn't dissuade me from buying their product, I'm a consumer after all and I ultimately only care about the products they produce. I would use an intermediary to procure my products (such as Wayland Games), but that is more due to shipping costs from the US to the EU.

On the business side I would prefer not to do business with Tony for fear that I might do something he would not like and have another public rant. Doing business with mr. Wai wouldn't be adversely affected by this episode, but when dealing with such large amounts I would insist on ironclad contracts, but I would do that with any individual/company and large sums of money.

Doing business in China creates issues for me, I don't speak the language, the distance, and the political/law situation. Doing business in the US: I speak the language, but I still have issues with the distance and the political/law situation. I'm not saying that the US = China, but the laws and political situation differ significantly with the law and political situation I'm used to, I wouldn't be able to make any assumptions based on my own local experiences.

Lets hope Defiance Games can learn from their previous efforts and use different molders and get out some decent quality products – we know it can be done in plastic, look at GW, Perry, Vitrix etc. Even using CAD sculpting you can get half decent results. Fingers crossed their new bugs in the pipeline come out ok (and it's less difficult to up a bug – no pun intended).
WF as they are now are left with poor products at the moment and would need to get in scultors (digital or real) and make new products, whilst having to re-build a lot of burnt bridges.
Defiance, at least on home turf, still seem to have enough good grace towards them that if they get the product right, don't try too many things at once, get the quality sorted etc, can rebuild more 'easily' in some ways.
Everything else about this mess should be kept off of forums and so on.
Defiance – keep quiet, make something decent and sell it – people are obviously happy to give you a second chance.
WF – get people the products they are owed, keep quiet.

Simples. :-)

Black Widow Pilot wrote:

"I've read of God-only-knows how many such cases across the country and beyond over the past 30+ years. They all have a common denominator, that the victims *assumed* that because the perp(s) presented themselves in so charming and professional a manner, that they just seemed sooo *nice* that it just never occurred to the victim(s) to stop and ask questions, they just *assumed* that everything was OK, that this person was precisely as they appeared.

Does this sound familiar to everyone?{"

Damn. That sounds like my first marriage!
Neal

BlackWidowPilot consider it this way around then.

WF approaches manufacturer with big plans and reasonable looking business plan.

WF then mucks around supplier to the point that he is owed a lot of money from them and he can either write it all off, or take over in the hope of recouping some of it?

Under this scenario, who is the 'snake oil salesman?'

There are some people on this forum who have genuine grievances in relation to the WF collapse/resurrection which I acknowledge and I without prejudice I can honestly say I don't want to be in the boots of anyone involved.

Can I respectfully suggest that interested parties sort it out in the applicable court of law, and not the jurisdiction of public opinion? I log onto TMP as it is a web magazine devoted to wargaming. I don't come here to see WF posts constantly. No, I don't have to read them, but it does the hobby no good in general for anyone who maybe interested in wargaming to join TMP and come across this sort of thing.

Bill, I don't know how the rules work, but can we perhaps siphon all WF off to Consumer Affairs if they are genuine product non-delvery issues, or just change the record in relation to the whole public fight please?

cheers
Jon.

Parzival, nobody wrote off the money, they got the company in return for the debt.

But Glenn has it right, we shouldn't be exposed to this.

Just a small point on the costs involved, to get all the molds made for a single box of plastic is around £50k in the UK.

So $250k is easily acheivable, and most plastic companies won't see profit for some time, as the sales from the first box is usually spent on the second, and so forth.

Korsun +1

btw in case you missed it the Persian Cav are available – saw them in Sheffield Wargames Emporium on Saturday

Has everyone lost their minds. I'm choking on the amount of popcorn theatrics here.

Who really cares what finally transpires. Those involved directly, yes! Friends ? Clients?

Lets stop the "he said she said" and analysis of statements (notice I didn't say facts). If someone is wronged, the lawyers will sort it out.

I, like many TMP members are not here to support anyone, just the hobby in general and share some simple knowledge. Any member (new or old) has the same standing, which doesn't mean good or bad, just equal. Any company (or representative, sock puppet or not) is always treated the same, with some sceptisism (buyer beware).

PLEASE NEXT TOPIC!

"BlackWidowPilot consider it this way around then.

WF approaches manufacturer with big plans and reasonable looking business plan.

WF then mucks around supplier to the point that he is owed a lot of money from them and he can either write it all off, or take over in the hope of recouping some of it?

Under this scenario, who is the 'snake oil salesman?'"

"Mr. Bloggs,"

Except that on the evidence available, that just doesn't appear to be the plausible let alone conclusive scenario.

That's my own personal conclusion for reasons outlined above, and until some new evidence surfaces to support your scenario conclusively, I'll stick to my own, thank you.

Leland R. Erickson

btw in case you missed it the Persian Cav are available – saw them in Sheffield Wargames Emporium on Saturday

I didn't see anything regarding their release, did you get a chance to take a look at them? and did they fix the problem with not having stirups?

This is a fascinating case of trial by forum. We should create a TMP poll to give a final verdict.

No but going by the "Family Guy" FCC episode, we have 3 guys who want Koreans and Chinese for the Imjin Wars, which translates to 5 MILLION people who want them (the real line was 100 complaints which means 5 billion were upset.) So I think the first one of these titans of plastic who comes out with Infantry,cavalry and some real cool looking rocket launchers with crew for either the Chinese or Koreans are the winners and all should side with them and bow to there capitalistic power.

"I didn't see anything regarding their release, did you get a chance to take a look at them? and did they fix the problem with not having stirups?"

Already reviewed on TMP:

TMP link

Did you mean a bridle and reins? Achaemenid Persian cavalry wouldn't have stirrups.

Allen

Yes I meant bridle and reins, thx.

TheWarStoreMan wrote: "Damn. That sounds like my first marriage!"
Heh…you too huh? ;)

irondog wrote: "So I think the first one of these titans of plastic who comes out with Infantry,cavalry and some real cool looking rocket launchers with crew for either the Chinese or Koreans are the winners and all should side with them and bow to there capitalistic power."

OOOO I think I found my way to decide this too……I agree with irondog.

It all sounds very "professional" but I have one simple question – when I am going to receive my order? Unless and until you start answering your customers' emails I shall not believe that anything has changed for the better.

Yours in severe disgruntlement

Chris Rance

--------------------------------------------------

The same situation here. Mr Wai / Kee / Hui`s letter states that `all has been taken care of`, then why is my PRE ORDER still not here now almost 5 months after ordering, while gaming buddies are happily fielding there Marlburian forces already. Forces they ordered in like february or such from retailers.
What`s the use of PRE orders if later orders get pushed in front of the open ones? I live in Belgium, not on the dark Side of the Moon (and if I did, I would personally awaken that Transformer overthere, totally irrelevant, but kinda cool)

I'd agree that this has gone on for long enough – though I wouldn't concur that former owners have set the record straight at all – to me its still "he says, she says" – but until and unless it ends up in the courts thats all it'll ever be

I suppose it has gone on for long enough. But I'm intrigued by the economics of the debt.

WF is making between 20% and 60% margin, and can expect to sell 21,000 to 62,000 boxes to make $250,000 profit.

That would be across all lines, correct? So that should include a number of the new ones just coming out, including the new Persians. That would make 21 different boxes, so they would need to sell between 1000 and 3000 boxes of each.

That seems manageable, at least more so the 62,000 of the WSS box set.

t.w.

A few decades ago, in a film entitled "The Russians are Coming, The Russians are Coming!"…

A brawl has erupted after an argument during a community civil defense meeting at a "Mom & Pop" diner in a small coastal New England village.

Jonathan Winters ("the local law") is pleading "Why can't we just get along together?", then he promptly decks the first local who bumps up against him.

People seem to forget that there are other costs involved, you don't sell those box sets on a single point in time, you sell them over a period of time. That time period also requires operating costs, taxes, etc.

Plastics might be cheap compared to metal, but there are still costs, both the resource itself as the labor in producing those frames. Packaging, transport, salaries, marketing, etc.

Also, the old box sets won't sell as well as newly released boxed sets. Existing customers will most probably have already purchased the bulk of what the want and now they'll have to depend on new customers buying old products.

They also need to keep expanding, so, that $250k is on top of operating costs and expansion costs. I still think Mr. Wai drew the short end of the stick when acquiring 51% of the company for a debt of $250k, but I suspect that there was very little choice (Tony couldn't get the $250k in a timely fashion).

"No but going by the "Family Guy" FCC episode, we have 3 guys who want Koreans and Chinese for the Imjin Wars, which translates to 5 MILLION people who want them (the real line was 100 complaints which means 5 billion were upset.) So I think the first one of these titans of plastic who comes out with Infantry,cavalry and some real cool looking rocket launchers with crew for either the Chinese or Koreans are the winners and all should side with them and bow to there capitalistic power."

Ming Chinese. Perry have the Koreans in metal right now, so I say Ming Chinese troops and some late 16th Century samurai for them to beat up on…

Leland R. Erickson

Yep, he said, she said. Don't know, don't care. Both sides are showing their true character the more they talk. I'll stay clear of the lot.