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"Wargames Factory Persians - Caveat Emptor" Topic


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5,604 hits since 25 Mar 2011
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paulkayuk Inactive Member25 Mar 2011 5:22 a.m. PST

Have just received my initial order of a box each of the Wargames Factory Persian Infantry, Persian Cavalry and hic! Amazons.

Initially I have to say I am pleased overall with the figures even though they are clearly marked as 28mm 1/48th and do indeed redefine 28mm yet again as they are much larger than WF's previous releases, to the extent that the new 'large' horse looks a tad ponyish under the Persian Cavalryman. Though I'll be happy if they maintain the size within the Army / Sub-range for future releases, though my now puny plastic Greeks may feel intimidated.

However, there are sadly a number of problems. I say sadly, as I have stayed clear of commenting on the recent furore and have continued to buy their Barbarians and Numidians and have been adequately happy with them.

These new releases do exhibit some problems which I can only hope will be resolved:

The Persian Infantry have been packed with 16 figures, not the 24 advertised. In only 2 leg poses, 1 standing, 1 kneeling, though with 4 differentish torsoes and a variety of arms.

Before anyone starts posting reference pictures to the Sprues as posted on/in various WF fora, these old pictures do not relate to the released product. Both Persian sets have been manufactured on the mini-sprue system.

WF seem to have listened to concerns about the original design of the Spara shield which they have re-modelled so that it no longer has the floating V's of the originally published design. BUT they have not included any spears in the box. I have to ask, have these even been moulded/manufactured?

There are 12 Bows/Bow Arms and bizarrely 2 sprues of 4 slings from the Amazon set, so perhaps this set should be re-labelled Persian 'Archers' (with a few slingers thrown in!)

The new 'large' horse in the cavalry set is a very nice sculpt (forgiving the above mentioned size 'problem) and indeed there are 12 Persian horses heads included with top knots, bridles and reins. BUT there are also 12 horses heads on the horse sprues without any trappings and a need for some skilled greenstuff or similar additions to be of any use in this set, though I understand the concept of a multi use basic horse sculpt, surely that should be the basis of a completed sculpt, not a fully manufactured item. Then there are 6 additional single horse head sprues, of no use whatsoever in this set, without end-user sculpting.

There are enough bows / bow arms (12) to build the entire Cavalry set as horse archers, so far so good. In addition there are 6 javelins, 3 Pikes!, 3 Crescent shields from the Amazon Set and 6 oval shields from the Persian Infantry. I personally would probably have liked more javelins and Crescent Shields, rather than the superfluous horses heads.

I haven't yet experimented to see whether the figures can be posed to hold the Pikes 2 handed on horse back, but they do seem to be far to long for use as a single-handed weapon.

Overall, I am a little saddened by this output, as there is clearly much good there, and great potential, but the final execution is simply sloppy. I would regretfully have to say that the agglomeration of errors with the Persian Infantry Set (shortfalls and omissions in particular) make this set as currently/initially released more suitable as a Pound Store (Dollar Store?) toy shelf offering than a serious Wargames production. A great shame as it is pay day, and until I examined the contents further, was about to order additional sets.

This just appears to be a rushed job of a mish-mash of sprues of some basic Persianish ideas topped off with some items from the Amazon set and a yet to be finalised multi-use horse concept. A serious re-think wouldn't be a bad idea, because if this is the result, it doesn't work.

So, my advise to Wargames Factory would be to post the sprue pictures and content counts as quickly as possible, as you did with the Amazons, and even withdraw them from sale until you have your packing/content sorted out, you can ill afford any more damage to your reputation.

And, to potential customers… as the topic says Caveat Emptor, don't bulk buy unless and until you are happy with the confusing/confused content

Sane Max25 Mar 2011 5:30 a.m. PST

Welcome to the Forum, and what an interesting and informative first post!

so, HOW tall are they? WF Figures are already on the larger end of the '28mm' spectrum – can you get some size comparisons to some industry standards – IE Foundry/Grippinge Beast ?

Pat

pogoame25 Mar 2011 5:57 a.m. PST

what i had seen from the older figures (romans, celts etc ) at first made me stay away from them

then the WSS generic infantry was announced which made me decide to give it a shot, so i ordered the 7box pre-order

after more than 4 months of utter confusion and constant lies (or call it mis-information in managereese) i was so fed up that i asked for a refund, which i obtained very quickly

from what i have read of people since is that the WSS figs have some problems (mostly the bulging eyes)

and what i read now about the persians is not going to convince me either

Wargames Factory is a dead horse to me, no vision, no management, no execution, no nothing

just curious how long their agony will take

Alex

paulkayuk Inactive Member25 Mar 2011 6:04 a.m. PST

@Sane Max, will try to do so over the weekend, though the comparisons will need to be against earlier WF, and Warlord Games, Gripping Beast and maybe Immortal Miniatures plastics – I've got a bit of a plastic theme going on here!

Had taken a day away from the office to do some urgent work at home (and coincidently the sun is shining) but so far today have been 'slightly' distracted by the arrival of these new plastics, but more so by the hilarious clamping incident outside, wherein the clamper managed to block himself in by clamping a van blocking his exit from the close I live in, followed by the clamper calling the police only to be cited for his bald tyres. Justice seen to be done I'd say!

paulkayuk Inactive Member25 Mar 2011 6:17 a.m. PST

@pogoame Haven't seen the WSS in the plastic so to speak, but have heard that they 'can' be painted to be less obviously bulge-eyed. Yes there are also some problems with some of the earlier sets, but at the price (compared to Metal anyway) I haven't really minded if a small percentage were unusable out-of-the-box, I've been hacking the tips of my fingers off for years adjusting both metals and plastics.

I have tried to give a fair personal initial appraisal above, as there is much to be liked in these new figures, they, Wargames Factory, just need to get the final content/execution right IMHO, or at the very least a quick appraisal by an experienced Wargamer with some knowledge of the period concerned before committing to the final release.

Though I suspect that could be a challenge as far as the Amazon's are concerned (said with tongue stuck firmly in cheek :) ) On which note, though I bought a box, I haven't commented on as I only got them for their kit-bashing potential… honestly Mom!

meledward23 Inactive Member25 Mar 2011 8:00 a.m. PST

"The Persian Infantry have been packed with 16 figures, not the 24 advertised"

So you paid for 24, and received 16?

paulkayuk Inactive Member25 Mar 2011 8:45 a.m. PST

@meledward23, That is correct but as yet it's not worth making a big issue of, as I have been assured by both the UK retailer I used and WF that the issue will be rectified. The difference, or potential loss, to me, is worth less than price of the pint I'm shortly heading next door to enjoy. I merely raised it as a head's up to prospective UK buyers while WF 'put things right'. I'm sure that as the Stateside boxes are being made up at WF central (or presumably their packers) that orders dispatched from their will not exhibit the same problems.

ancientsgamer Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member25 Mar 2011 8:53 a.m. PST

Actually, a 33% reduction is not a small matter. The whole idea of plastics is price advantage. With Old Glory and 40% off army card, the reduced figures you mention make Old Glory seem the better bargain.

paulkayuk Inactive Member25 Mar 2011 9:16 a.m. PST

@ancientsgamer Actually, I was just attempting to point out in a light hearted manner, that for me personally it is a very very small matter affecting the purchase of a single box of Persian Infantry, and one that may only affect the initial run of product, packed and sent directly from China to the UK and, I surmise, elsewhere.

I understand that order fulfillment originating Stateside will be packed from bulk product there and that this is an initial error only. So the price-advantage argument is a one-off and still holds good in the favour of plastics.

I repeat, that being a lucky early recipient of a potentially satisfying product, that it's just a friendly heads-up, Wargamer to Wargamer etc. of shortcomings in the initial release.

cturnitsa Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member25 Mar 2011 9:24 a.m. PST

Wow, this sort of snafu doesn't speak too well about the new management's ability to deliver product as advertised and as sold.

And please, no jokes about needing a hole in one's pocket to count to 16, even if one shoe is left on.

Chuck

paulkayuk Inactive Member25 Mar 2011 9:45 a.m. PST

@Chuck Got to agree with you on that one. My last post wasn't intended to sound so whole-heartedly one-sided and sycophantic.

brucka25 Mar 2011 10:44 a.m. PST

Wow! You are new! What an incredibly unbiased, full of useful information and fair post without a mote of hysteria. Hopefully you never adapt but create your own niche here in the fetid TMP swamp.

Other than that, wouldn't touch WF with a barge pole -dollar store or not.

I hope Defiance games can re-release the Vikings and Saxons though don't know who owns that copyright?

A similar review and comparison to GB plastics of the above would be welcome – you are like the TMP Billy Budd! Thanks.

Ken Portner25 Mar 2011 12:10 p.m. PST

Train wreck….

whill425 Mar 2011 1:55 p.m. PST

Thanks

meledward23 Inactive Member25 Mar 2011 2:19 p.m. PST

"The difference, or potential loss, to me, is worth less than price of the pint I'm shortly heading next door to enjoy. I merely raised it as a head's up to prospective UK buyers while WF 'put things right'."
____________________________

Uh huh, yeah, cause that company puts things right, FAST. I mean fast, like a snail racing to get out of the way of a ten ton salt truck.

Seriously, glad it doesn't agitate you that 33% of the product purchased was determined to not be needed by others. Me, I guess I have significantly less tolerance.

Still I do appreciate the time you took to write up this review.

paulkayuk Inactive Member25 Mar 2011 5:45 p.m. PST

@bruka cheers. Like (no Love button yet) the Billy Budd ref. but 'Had' to do B Britten at school, so naturally (and wrongly) not a fan, though have at times been in (near) total agreement with Thomas Paine's sentiment therein.

@meledward23 cheers for the last sentence. Though I believe Tolerance is a Virtue not a Vice. A 33% loss on a single box of figures (if that really is a wholly accurate and exact figure based on my appraisal) isn't worth a Hill of Beans IMO.

paulkayuk Inactive Member25 Mar 2011 7:12 p.m. PST

@meledward23 to paraphrase, don't attack the messenger, a 33% loss on a single box of a new release does not agitate me, I took the risk by buying them and issued the heads up to those who do have less tolerance. Apologies I think I tried to say much the same a couple of hours ago… Time for bed.

Mithridates26 Mar 2011 7:17 p.m. PST

Paul – Thanks very much for the thoughtful review. It is helping me make up my mind about the offer from one of their distributors in Australia. They have the WF Persian infantry at 32 figures in the pack however!!! Cavalry are 12 to the pack.

Garry

paulkayuk Inactive Member26 Mar 2011 11:59 p.m. PST

Here's a link to the 32 figure Persian Infantry box in Australia: link

And another in the UK for a cut-price single box deal on the mis-packed 16 figure Persian Infantry set: link

paulkayuk Inactive Member27 Mar 2011 12:08 a.m. PST

Just posted the same links on the WF Facebook page, but the first link now only shows there when I log into Facebook, and the second link wouldn't post at all. It's only a rumour, but I think my posting privileges may just have been restricted on WF Facebook. Or, my conspiracy apart, perhaps the WF Facebook page is just set to not accept links in posts.

JJMicromegas31 Mar 2011 1:55 p.m. PST

Hi Paul,

Thank you for the informative post and review.

Regarding the Persian Cavalry, it seems you were more positive on these. Your only problems were the size of the figs and the content of the sprues. Would you say the sculpts are of the same quality as the Numidians and Vikings, or would you lump them in with the Persian Infantry?

I am considering buying these as I want to build a Parthian army and these could help with the large number of Horse Archers I would need.

1ngram01 Apr 2011 7:19 a.m. PST

Is there a picture of the Persian cavalry fret/sprue anywhere on the Net?

And the infantry with all the sprues visible – ie inc the famous missing spears?

Neldoreth Inactive Member05 May 2011 6:39 a.m. PST

Hey there,

Sorry to resurrect this old threat, but I figured I'd post a picture from WF's Facebook page.

From the picture, it appears that the review above might not be entirely valid. Perhaps the reviewer got an early and differently tooled casting because the scale seems in line with the rest of the WF stuff… or at least the vikings, which I can say from experience, are in line with the celts, ancient Germans, and Romans.

Persians in a scale comparison:
picture

More pics below:

Horse Sprue:
picture

Horse assembled:
picture

Persian Rider:
picture

Greek/Persian Weapons
picture

Greek/Persian Spears and Shields
picture

Persian Rider assembled:
picture

I hope that is useful.
n.

PS. Note that whoever is running WF now in the US is erroneously calling the Persians 1/48th scale. I think they are attempting to sell them to a wider model-building market, because they are not 1/48th scale, as you can see from the scale picture above.

1ngram05 May 2011 3:15 p.m. PST

So what do you actually get for your 12 cavalry figures? Are there enough spears and spear arms to have them all so armed? What's the maximum number who can be spear armed: or bow armed: or axe armed. How many of each sprue in the cavalry box do you get?

Socalwarhammer06 May 2011 7:24 a.m. PST

I saw both the cavalry and infantry yesterday and they are very acceptable. It is obvious that the packaging is very different than other WGF products. The quality and style is very similar to the Saxon and Viking ranges.

After being assembled the figures did present very well. I do not agree with the change in model count from 32 down to 24, but at $20 USD U.S. the models are still a bargain vs. metal.

aecurtis Fezian Inactive Member06 May 2011 9:40 a.m. PST

$15.95 USD per box from FRP Games:

link

If price must overmatch quality, at least get the best price.

Allen

1815Guy Supporting Member of TMP06 May 2011 10:50 a.m. PST

Q: Hmmm….. so when is a Spearman not a spearman?

A: When he doesnt have a spear.

Surely as presented these are Persian Archers, not Persian spearmen.

You might as well call them Persian Machine Gunners, cos they havent got any of those either!!

WF is evidently not the best quality plastic brand, and too much hassle to faff around with.

1ngram07 May 2011 11:43 a.m. PST

Answering my own question – the Persian Cavalry box. I bought one at Carronade in Falkirk today and have been checking out the contents at home over a curry.

The box itself has, I see, come in for some criticism but you're only going to throw the damn thing away when you have made the figures up, aren't you, so I can't see what the problem is here. It does its job holding the contents – just! Because what you get is a box of plastic sprues which is positively overflowing. There are masses of the things. You get:

1. 12 sprues with two halves of a horse, a tail and a head on each. So 12 horses.

2. 4 more sprues with three more horses heads on each.

3. 6 more sprues with one horses head on each.

So you get 30 separate horse heads to go with your 12 horses which, to me, seems to be taking choice a mite too far.

4. 6 sprues each with two saddlecloths and horsestrappings on each – enough for your 12 horses.

5. 12 sprues with a lower half human body on each sprues.

6. 3 sprues with 4 upper half bodies on each.

7. 2 sprues with 8 heads on each, 16 in total. The heads are cloth hatted of various types, none appear helmeted. The neck is the standard WF ball socket type. I hope I can put some Immortal Greek heads on some of these to represent later style Western Satrapies cavalry. But enough bodies, and heads for the 12 figures.

8. 2 sprues with 12 arms on each. Assuming an equal number of lefts and rights there are enough here for all 12 figures. This is important in the light of 11 below if you want your Persians to carry javelins and/or spears rather than bows

9. 3 sprues of two 'figure 8' shields each.

10. 1 sprue of three crescent shields. These 9 shields are, to my mind, superfluous as cavalry at this time didn't carry shields. But they are there anyway if you want them.

11. 4 sprues with two bows – left arms attached, two firing right arms, two open bow cases and two closed bow cases. Thus you can have all 12 figures firing bows if you wish without using any other of the weapons sprues below or the separate arms sprues above.

12. 2 sprues with 3 javelins/spears on each

13. 1 sprue with 3 very long spears/pikes (clearly Greek). These have a spearhead at one end and an ornate spike at the other. If you wanted all 12 men to be armed with javelin/spear you could cut the latter long spears in half to make two spears out of each and thus achieve your required 12 spear total but its a pity there wasnt another couple of spear sprues in the box. (mind you its difficult to see how they could have squeezed any more into what is already a pretty big box)

14. 2 sprues with two chisel shaped axes with thong on each.

15. 2 sprues with two straight swords and two scabbards with sword on each sprue.

16. 4 sprues with two kopis type swords and two scabbards (with swords) for such swords on each sprue.

So with the hatchets and swords as well as the javelins and spears there are enough weapons to have the whole 12 figures so armed or if you want them all bow armed there is that option as well.

As I said at the start there is a helluvalotta plastic in this box – 16 different sprues – more than enough, I would have thought, to satisfy everybody.

At £15.00 GBP (Show price) this is a pretty creditable effort in my opinion.

Valendir Inactive Member13 May 2011 2:16 a.m. PST

Can anyone post some pictures of the persian infantry assembled ? And maybe some details on what's in the box, because i am a bit confused now. 32 figures ? 24 ? 16 ? Spears ? Spara ? Mashed potatoes ?

Bayushiseni Inactive Member19 May 2011 3:22 a.m. PST

Hi Paul:

Can you post some pictures of the Amazons?

Thanks.

PilGrim22 May 2011 10:03 a.m. PST

Just to follow up, I'm currently assembling the Persian Infantry set. First the positives- they're nicely detailed and seem to go together well (see later)

BUT

As was mentioned by the OP the set is a combination of four identical main sprues containing 2 full bodies, arms, heads equipment etc plus another 8 each of kneeling and standing leg \ lower body mini sprues, plus various torsos, weapons, shields, arms and heads all on mini sprues. I don't think this is in any way an issue, and it makes sense that they can produce a mini sprue with say two crescent pelta type shields as these could be used elsewhere etc. Getting spare bits is no problem, as long as they all go together.

However, the attachment points for the heads is different for the "half torso" figures a sort of ball & socket arrangement, while the "full" figures use a flat area join, so you cant mix the heads about easily.

Next, weapons. Plenty of bows and Spara but only 4 spears! These are part of the main sprue, and sadly I missed this shortage when starting my Spara line. Similarly the main sprue has a very nice infantry bowcase, but you only get 4 so not enough to equip everyone, although there are 2 other different cases on the bow sprue, these seem more appropriate to cavalry. Also, no standards a major miss there in my view.

Lastly, the kneeling figure. Here is a problem, because when assembled, no matter what combination of torso you use, he ends up about half a head shorter than the rest of the figures standing upright, which looks pretty stupid maybe there is evidence of a 8 foot tall Persian? Ive cut the base from under him to try and hide the fact, will have to see the end result to decide overall, but IF it is not workable that box of 24 figures is now really only 16

This is really a pity because they actually do look nice figures.

Anyway, I'm disappointed not angry, because this could have been a much better product. For what it's worth it seems to me that WF had initially decided to concentrate on the "main" sprue. but after initial feedback have tried to produce a more flexible product by adding the mini sprues with the updated Spara etc. If they had a sprue of Persian short spears and maybe a standard, and either dropped or redesigned the kneeling guy these would work rather well. In one sense all is not lost because the decision to use "mini sprues" means that if they do take note of these problems they could fix it with a relatively small change rather than have to change a whole large sprue,

I'll post this to the WF facebook page , but judging by past experience they'll take it down fast. Very touchy

Ken

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