"Real "Future Soldier" Concepts vs SF Miniatures" Topic

I was at a conference organised by ArmaSuisse yesterday. They presented some (public) details of the Future Soldier Projects being developed by the German and Swiss Armies. These in turn share much with the US Future soldier projects. Here are a few points…

Guns – guns don't appear to be changing very much. Increasingly they are fitted with day and night scope systems.

Camouflage – digital or pixel patterns take advantage of fractal patterns and are more effective than blocks of colour. Woodland camo remains in conventional green / brown /black shades but urban camo in brown shades appears to be better than grey shades – this looks similar to desert pixel camo. USA and Canada already use this.

Clothing – many different types of warm clothing are being tried. Mostly these use the same concepts as mountaineering layer clothing – goretex, windstopper fleece, multi layer sweat management underwear.

Combat Vests – Traditional webbing carrying systems are out. Vests work well over bullet proof jackets. Vests are also better for electronics as cables can be routed through the linings. Load bearing vests incorporate hydration systems and often have pouches that can be added or removed as required.

Hydration – drinking is important for comfort and performance but experience in Iraq shows that liquid intake reduces shock when wounded. All new backpacks and load bearing vests have drinking systems (Camelbak).

Electronics are getting more sophisticated. All soldiers will have helmet mounted units to communicate to buddies and mother vehicles. Everyone will also have GPS.

Ballistic vests are at a limit because they weigh 16kg. New designs will reduce weight by having areas of less and more protection. If weight can be reduced enough, thigh guards and neck guards will be introduced. Thigh guards are more important as a wound in the thigh causes huge loss of blood.

I have some future wars troopers and they have a few things which appear to be wrong. Shin guards and webbing based ammo pouches don't appear in the Future Soldier concepts.

I have no idea how to paint digital camo either.. :-)

I've observed the new ACU grey/green digital camo both in garrison and in the field. From 50 or more meters, it sort of blends together. To the mini painter's eye, it looks like a dark grey undercoat with some agressive drybrushing. That's how I'd do it in 28mm or smaller.

Hmmm… no mention of troops equipped with shorter ranged weapons and shields? but that's what all the mini compnaies are doing, what's wrong with reality for not following their lead?

Thisi s why I've always dug Masamune Shiro's stuff (Appleseed and Ghost in the Shell).

He seems to have been ahead of his time in writing stories (and drawing comics) of info warrior, modern special forces and soldiers. He never abandoned guns with bullets, nor did he get rid of body armor, comaouflage, etc..

One key thing I like about his concepts are the inclusion of the use of MASSIVE amounts of intel and non-combat assets to achieve mission objectives. Information is as much a weapon on the modern battlefield as anything else.

Information is as much a weapon on the modern battlefield as anything else.

Hear Hear! Some of the new stuff being currently fielded can connect a vehicle crew (or perhaps an individual RTO) with higher HQ all the way up to the Pentagon is needed.

Whether or not that increases a units efficiency by allowing RT intel to be passed, or if it will decrease it by allowing even higher echelons to micromanage a battlefield they arent on, remains to be seen. Hopefully it will not be abused by commanders as the helicopter was in Nam….

…IF needed… *sigh* Darned typo gremlins…

Going with emu2020 thought so will be communication. In order for information to have effect, it needs swift communication (Shirow's characters were able to communicate audio/visual instanteous over long distances). Though I suppose squads will still have a man dedicated to comms, it looks like everyone will have some level of comm equipment. I don't think this would impact miniatures except for small antennas since the equipment has become so compact.

It's also interesting that commands will know the location of all of their soldier at all times. Stopping the communication system from breaking down during conflicts will be a big step with all of the increased complexity. I can't help but feel that any major conflict in the future will involve targeting satellites and such to distrust communications.

Mike

Which raises the question: Who will have this stuff?

History pretty much has demonstrated since WW2 that modern Western armies go through 3rd world armies like a hot knife through butter (stand up fights).

Which armies will be able to afford this equipment and training?

Will armies continue to get smaller as a result? More volunteer and professional instead of the old draft type forces?

Will the "standard" soldier become a "special forces" kind of soldier?

As the top end military evolves away from the less well equipped and trained military forces out there, will conficts be more and more the "fish in the sea" type of urban gurrillia we've seen over the past few years when opposite militaries collide (not everyone is stupid enough to stand around in the desert with no air cover when faced by the US)?

While I can see a non-educated (in the sense of knowing how to use it) soldier will be able to use bought, captured, or stolen equipment, an inability to service and maintain such equipment will become a real issue. Will the high end military forces move to make sure that they control the information "feeds", equipment parts and training required to use and operate high-end weapons and equipment?

Sounds like more and more "wars" will be police/intelligence types of conflicts as opposed to actual battlefield types.

Dan

I think you will see the move to RTO's being little tech "geeks" in fatigues with guns. Each squad will have it's localized network allowing local commanders good command and control on the small scale. Your geek boy with the big backback is going to be your life's blood though. He'll coordinate your ECM, ECCM, your drone contacts, infonet, satellite uplinks, etc. And you'll love him for ever pimple on his face (comedy intended).

I also see the increased reliance on info-war to become a thonr in modern army's sides as the low-tech enemies find good ol' fashioned ways to end-run the tech. This is where our combat veterans will come in. More than one, some old dude has pulled a trick from an old war out of his ass to save the day.

One nasty thought is the desirability of a localized nuke blast not as a weapon, but as a way to take the big boys down a peg. Even though we will likely say "that would never happen" and "adequately" shield our electronics against such a contingency I am not so optomistic.

With satellites becoming smaller and sheaper, as with satellite comms we may see the birth of the sniper satellite. It may seem far-fetched, but imagine being able to claim support from an ever-present eye in the sky. Of course, with growing drone tech, it might not even need to be an orbital satellite, but just a network of buzzing, bomb-happy robo-warriors circling high above, waiting for their master's beckon call.

Somebody really needs to make a set of rules for squad level tactics using "realistic" tech.

Any photos of those "future soldiers"?

CC

Yeah, I'd be curious to see "future warrior" concepts from outside the US.

One nasty thought is the desirability of a localized nuke blast not as a weapon, but as a way to take the big boys down a peg.

While it might in theory be an effective tool, use of nukes against 'the big boys' will mean the user loses, fast, hard and (most likely) radioactive.

Nuke EMP is (IIRC) most effectively generated by an upper-atmospheric blast, and it covers a pretty wide area.

Now, a more effective anti-electronics weapon would be an EMP generator. Anecdotally, they can be backpack-sized one-use weapons.

Even in an electronics-less environment, I'd still put money on the big boys; that's when training comes out.

As for rulesets to simulate it all, I'd pick Stargrunt 2. Big boys get all the toys and training, third-rates get motivation (mostly, they tend to be brittle), local knowledge, blending in with civvies, etc. To sim an EMP weapon, remove the toys from the first-rate troops.

I can't find the links at the moment, but the French and German 'Future Warrior' concepts look a lot like the USA's Land Warrior. There are some differences in detail, but form tends to follow function.

Aerial drones are more likely and feasible (and extant) than orbital support – ortillery would take a long time to arrive. Most orbital assets will be commo and surveillance (and things to take those out…). Now, that's presuming a physical object dropped from orbit. Lasers might change things…

Discovery channel just ran a program on the next generation of UAVs.The new upgraded Predator and a nearly completed concept called Dominator…a swarm of networked,armed,and inexspensive semi-independent drone aircraft only Three feet in lenth. They carry a payload of three dropable explosive packages and in a pinch can Kamakazi. Man you can't make this stuff up! Check out the program, I think it is called'"Future Weapons".

They have left a few things out of the show on the Discovery channel…

Most eastern nations are beginning to develop and field radar and communication systems that are not localized. All transmitters will be shorter ranged, and VERY numerous. If the "enemy" takes out one of these, then another will just turn on.

Also, using Iraq as an analogy of the US's capabilities is a HUGE mistake. Iraq is basically a huge open field, with a few spots near the city or in the NW near Turkey where they have mountains for our "Enemies" to hide in.

I subscribe to a LOT of foreign news services. Mostly French, Indian, Japanese, and Iranian. While some of them can tend to be a little warped in some respects (VERY anti-US sympathies in Iran for instance)… Anyway, most of these news services have reported more on the dissention of the several generals of Rumsfeld's treatment of the war. Most of them have mentioned that our perception of the US's ability to achieve the kind of "Success" (If you can really call it that) in Iraq is due to a nation that was not really as well equipped or trained as they were made out to be. Iran for instance has T-80 and T-90s, and is currently installing a new AA system from the Russians that is pretty much state of the art (Decentralized and multiple transmitters separate from the radar recievers, meaning that they cannot be easily taken out without pretty severe casualties in the process). Iran also has a better trained and more fanatic army than Iraq. Remember that Iran has a government that their population both likes and supports. They are not just a bunch of draftees built up aaround a core of sychophantic fanatics (who by the way abandon their loyalty as soon as their superiors fall. That's what Sychophants do)…

Now, on to the "Future Warriors" The increasing reliability of communications will be a boon to any army that can maintain them. Just as we have been developing UAVs the second and thrid world countries have also begun to develop systems that are similar that use remote controlled or UAV vehicles of their own that are available from commercial model dealers (you can buy a programmable Auto-pilot for an RC plane for about $300). This will enable them to make some really unpredictable attacks on better equipped and "trained" forces…

A lot of what we think of as "second" or "Third" world countries are beginning to develop alternate methods of distrupting what would essentially be "our" communications and electronics without having to use a Nuke to create an EMP. The Indians and Japanese have a couple of methods that the have been working on for a while. I have not been able to find an info on how successful they have been, but it is something that has shown up in several articles I have read recently…

It is going to take a lot more than the dominator (As cool as it was) to destablize the battlefield…

Dear all,

Here is a link to some of the USA Land Warrior Projects.

link

If anybody can find more links, pleease post them.
Thanks
mick

Just Googled Land warrior. These are interesting

link

link

link

link

I wonder how survivable the computer and electronics systems are on these Infantry Combat Systems?

First: The computer and Battery, if these are hit with a small arms round; will they be put out of action? This would distrupt the GPS and Communications to that soldier. What if it is an Offier or NCOs system that is hit? Will that cause the entire team to be out of action (Or the Comm tech. Whoever it is that would be linking the team to the larger units)

Then: That faceplate… It is suppposed to be both ballistic protection, and a HUD that projects two displays… Will it still work if it has been hit by a round? What will that do to the vision of the wearer?

Otherwise, this is exactly the sort of system that I have been planning for Striker III for the high Tech Level Infantry systems, and for the better armored troops of the future.

I go even further by providing slaved humanoid robots that accompany Fire Teams, and Platoon. Take a look at the newer Humanoid Robots from Honda, Sony, and other tech companies. They are now capable of producing humanoid robots that can run, dance, and even manage to dynamicall keep their balance in an interaction with another person, animal (such as a dog or cat) or another Robot. some of them are even being programmed in Robotic Kung-fu matches. It will not be too long until a humanoid robot is fast and agile enough to accompany human troops, and operate as their eyes and ears in situations that would put a human at too great a risk..

It would be even easier to armor these than it would a person, as the "Land-Warrior" or "Future Warrior" systems could just be integrated into the internal computer systems that are already inside the android. Being humanoid, the could just use the same weapons systems as other soldiers…

Good link for US Army Future Warrior 2020 project and Future Force Warrior 2010 projects. Shows also body armour with groin and thigh pads and new concepts for SWAT teams.

link

German IdZ Project
link

British Fist Project
link

USA Land Warrior – some parts will be deployed from 2006
link

I found a link to Crye Associates, a design company working on many of the US Projects.

Wonderful pictures of new helmets, guns and armour concepts for US Army, Police and even Fire Brigade.

cryeassociates.com/work.html

Regards
Mick

Hi fellas,

I did read somewhere that apparently a nutron bomb that kills people but leaves buildings intact has been created, so we may no longer need the messy rebuilding requisit in the aftermath of a nuclear blast.

Propforward,

One of the reasons that the US has been using Depleted Uranium in their weapon rounds in that when they impact on a hard surface the willl release a hard neutron burst. This will sometimes be sufficient to kill the occupants of a vehicle even if it does not cause a cavitation or penetration of the interior…

"I did read somewhere that apparently a nutron bomb that kills people but leaves buildings intact has been created, so we may no longer need the messy rebuilding requisit in the aftermath of a nuclear blast."

Not entirely true. Tney neglect to mention the massive numbers of janitorial specialists, amounts of cleanser, and air fresheners it would take to clean up the after effects. I imagine that for most buildings the carpet would need replacing too, if it's not cleaned up immediately…. :p

Still looking for the right figures (28mm-30mm, metal AND unpainted) . . .

TMP link

CC