"DRM 6mm minis pricing concern" Topic

The other day I mentioned that I was a little leery of the announced prices for the DRM 6mm figs, and several people suggested that their prices were actually quite good. To quote Tuffskull from Mercenary Brush:

"With regards the prices, I'm obviously slightly biased as I'm involved, but personally I think they're not too bad at all. Based on what I've been sent for painting, The Quality is superb both in sculpting and casting. It is a range with no corners cut, there's very little to match it in detail."

and Wraeththu:

"Three 6mm tanks for Epic are going for $13 USD and some even $15 USD. So $10 USD isn't bad imho."

Now I can't comment on the quality since I haven't seen any in person as yet (although the photos certainly look good and Naismith is a proven talent), but as far as prices go, a quick look at some of their competitors in the 6mm scifi lines goes like this:

Brigade Models 6mm range- average cost per vehicle mini, about $1.25 USD

Ground Zero Games Dirtside/Future wars – average cost per vehicle mini, about $2.50 USD

Games Workshop Epic range – average cost per vehicle mini $4.35 USD or so for a "normal sized" tank, although some do hit the $5.00 USD mark

DRM's "normal sized" vehicles run about $3.33 USD a piece.

Now, yeah, DRM is clearly cheaper than GW's Epic stuff, but they're also more expensive than either GZG or Brigade. I've seen (and own) a fair amount of both those companies' minis, and they sure aren't what I'd call badly detailed, nor are they particularly small…one 6mm AFV is going to be at least sort of the same size as the next if everyone's sticking to scale. And both GZG and Brigade seem to do well with their 6mm stuff, their ranges are huge and they haven't retired figures from them in ages…good sign, right?

GW *doesn't* stick to 6mm very well, their vehicles do tend to be on the largish size, which justifies a somewhat higher price…but how well is Epic really selling these days? The only people I know who play the game are old grognards using figures from back to the Adeptus Titanicus days. The secondary market on ebay does pretty well…but again, it's stockpiles of the older figures selling, not piles of the new sculpts. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Epic's figure prices have limited the influx of new players to the game, and the old players are mostly using stuff they bought decades ago.

So…is DRM expensive? Yes, they really are. They might not be *too* expensive, and their designs are certainly attractive enough to be tempting… but are they hurting themselves with their pricing? Would coming down to (say) GZG's price point improve sales? I know I'd be alot more willing to try them at $2.50 USD or even $2.75 USD a pop.

Of course they might not be *able* to lower their prices and remain viable either, in which case there's no point in my raising the point. But if the prices are based on a perception of "what the market will bear" derived from looking at Epic…well, being more economical than a GW Specialist range is not a claim to fame, not when established competitors are managing to produce comparable figs at 50-65% of those prices.

Anyone else got an opinion on this? I'd honestly like to see this range do well, but I'm concerned that (like Epic) it may be too expensive to do so…

Rich

And DRM stands for what?

Not familiar with them.

This is one of the few ranges that has tempted me to get back into 6mm gaming. And I'm pretty picky about my gaming minis. But with GHQ vehicles at $8.95 USD for 5, the DRM stuff does seem expensive.

I've only seem pics of their product and have been impressed with them. For Sci-Fi gamers looking for 6mm minis the quality of these compared to some other lines and the potential to add different figures to your forces may make them worth the extra cost.

Dark Realm Miniatures

darkrealmminiatures.com

Rod

Dark Realm Miniatures.

darkrealmminiatures.com

link

As for your argument, Rich, I have to agree with you. The DRM stuff is indeed beautiful, but I can get comparable quality for better prices from Brigade and GZG. The Brigade army packs are a great deal, bringing the price of a vehicle down close to a dollar. Even GHQ's modern micro-armor — which can often be converted for sci-fi use — come in under a dollar, considering their standard five-vehicles-for-$9 pricing scheme on most vehicles.

I've already ranted myself blue in the face about the new Epic minis — TMP link — and I agree that the prices of the new lines are keeping people out of the game. Simple as that.

I can also sympathize with DRM about staying solvent, but I have to point out that the norm for a small business is to run in the red for the first two to three years of operation, and to expect less is unrealistic (and I've helped my dad start several small businesses — two restaurants and a printing shop). The smarter course of action, in my mind, would be to set the price low enough to kick demand into high gear. Volume sales would help start-up costs be recovered within a short time frame — maybe 18 months to two years — and then the prices would allow for small but steady profit growth.

Have a look at Adler's Dark Star range.

Very nice stuff, if not the best, if you are into super-futuristic styled vehicles.

The DRM figures are beautiful, and they should be proud of them. However, the pricing is also high enough to make my eyebrows wiggle when I think of starting large armies from scratch. I don't know if this is so much a DRM characteristic as it is one of the sci-fi market in general.

My perspective is that of a historical gamer just getting into sci-fi, but I have been a bit off-put at the price levels for the micro-scale figures. See my recent discussion here, which indicates I'm not alone!

TMP link

I know the arguments about the sci-fi market bearing higher prices, and it obviously is true since it is a thriving genre. However, I do find it surprising (and a bit frustrating) that the smaller historicals market has a bulk-purchase strategy built into virtually every scale, and especially the micro-scales, while the larger sci-fi market has apparently ignored this approach.

I honestly wonder if someone could "Old Glory" the sci-fi market, i.e. come in and grab a large share of the market by offering bulk-purchase packs. If such a company existed, they would be getting my business.

Cheers,

Christopher

javelin98, could you explain the math that gets to 5 vehicles sold for $9.00 USD having a unit cost under $1.00?

So it's not just me, then. I was afarid I was just being cheap. :)

Those androids sure are tempting, though. And the grav tanks. And the aircraft…but my sales resistance is still holding strong. Sigh.

Rich

javelin98, could you explain the math that gets to 5 vehicles sold for $9.00 USD USD having a unit cost under $1.00?

Well, I'm a government employee, y'see…

Nah, just misspoke myself. Still a better price than either the Epic stuff or DRM stuff.

I agree that the DRM stuff seems a bit high in price, although I'll probably end up getting some anyway since I have no willpower and I'm a sucker for 6mm. One advantage I think DRM has is that they seem to be planning on expanding their lines, whereas GZG and brigade have remained pretty static.

I'm a sucker for 6mm as well, but I'm also looking to be more cost-conscious as I build my armies. DRM's stuff looks very nice, I'll agree, but so does GW's Epic and I haven't picked up any of that in a few years either, mainly because of cost.

That having been said, I do like the look of some of DRM's pieces, and I'll be considering them. Nice looking scenics too, especially as contrast to the gothic look stuff that has been questioned elsewhere on these boards.

yup love the looks but will not buy at that cost. I would make mold and cast my own first.

>> Of course they might not be *able* to lower their prices and remain viable either

I can't imagine that its fair to compare a company that is jsut starting to two companies that have wide ranges of figs, have been established for some time and have paid off the initial investment for their miniatures.

well pricing yourself out of sales is not the way to pay off your initial investment, that you have to plan to do over the course of 3 to 5 years and you should not plan to do more then brake even the first year not counting your start up capital.

Hi Guys,

I do know the DRM manufacturer and wasn't involved with him in this endeavor in any way.

Simply put though, he invested a ton of money in this project… all out of his own pocket… to hire the sculptor… get the minis moulded and cast… and in just about every other way.

They surely are more expensive, BUT…

You get what you pay for.

They are very high quality and the infantry prices are competitive… at least what I can tell from not running numbers.

The vehicles are pricey, but they quality also looks excellent. I haven't seen the models in person.

I'll see if I can contact the manufacturer and have hm add his comments to this thread.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

>> well pricing yourself out of sales is not the way to pay off your initial investment

Neither is going broke trying to sell miniatures at a loss.

This isn't advanced calculus. He has startup costs that he needs to make back. Therefore his prices will be higher than competitors that have already made abck their initial startup costs.

Besides, the DRM figs look, IMO, a lot better than most 6mm sci-fi figs on the market that appear to be mired in late 70's sci-fi or just never got over theri fixation with Hammers Slammers.

The DRM figs look original. Perhaps that might be worth paying for?

Or heck it might be worth paying to help support another manufacturer in this scale. I seem to recall people complaining about the lack of new figs for 6mm sci-fi on more than a few occasions.

I agree with the support comment, seeing new 6mm designs is a good thing. I especially think the android and kraytonian stuff is very refreshing. Really, I think that the hobby is just expensive in general. Much of the 10mm stuff in scifi nowadays seems to be 7-8 bucks (Reaper's resized stuff, Mongoose's War Without End) so I guess 6mm tanks for 3.33 isn't too out of sight. its also cheaper than the battletech stuff, which is also a tad pricey.

Actually, Fortress Figures DID sell their micro SF lines in packs of 10 or even 20 vehicles.

Looks like the line is still available:

link

And even the price has remained the same…

Very nice figures, a bit large perhaps, but rather limited selection.

Hi All,

As a newbie to these boards I will say hi and thank everyone for the various comments about DRM Miniatures.

As an introduction quickly:

I am a 6mm collector and follow GW a lot. I wouldnt call myself a fanboy as such but I love 6mm and huge armies strolling across the battlefield. I am 33 this year and have been collecting GW miniatures since I was 15 when I was playing Space Crusade.

I still collect GW models and actually paint them, but like others here I was sad to hear, but not surprised at what happened to Fanatic/Specialist Games.

I have wanted to have models sculpted for me for at least a couple of years now and the DRM project for me has been running for just over 2.5 years to accomplish what I have at the moment. So there is the brief history.

So points made here regarding pricing:

Pricing was never an easy subject when I was trying to work out what I wanted. I dont want a pricey range but I wanted a good range that people would like and would buy on a big scale as thats what IMHO the scale was for.

Saying that, there are costs and there are things that make projects like this harder to work. There is the development ie sculpting, casting, then there is the supply wherever it may be in the world so there is things like representatives or distributors to help sort out import duties. Then there is the future development to ensure support and continuing releases.

So I have found it very hard to ensure that everyone gets a decent deal and make sure that it can continue to become a stable source of miniatures.

I have put a lot of personal finance into this and will continue to do so to ensure the plans I have for the next year or so I have planned goes forward. There will be many releases for both terrain and the races I have. Plus to add to that new races that are currently being designed.

My point here is that I appreciate your comments and in many cases I do agree with them but being on the other side as well I can also see now why this scale is so small in variety and things would have to be sacrificed to 'fix' some of the points made. I am not looking for a quick profit and a quick return as that wont happen I know that. I also know that my persoanl salary wont be able to support this range in its own forever and I certainly dont want to go down the GW path. So for those who think its pricey, I understand that and have no problems with that opinion, I just cant change it for now.

I hope this explains a little and I will be following up on this thread on a regular basis from now on…

Douglas
DRM

Thanks for the link! Only four types of vehicles, but nice-looking standard types at $1 USD per heavy tank or missile launcher and $0.50 USD per light tank or APC. That's some nice pricing!

Just to clarify:
The one thing Douglas Doesnt actually say above, only implies, is that he is the man behind DRM.

We have spent many an hour talking about pricing & trying to find a simple price structure that doesnt mean Bankrupting DRM instantly whilst giving the best value possible for customers.

As I've said before, the vehicle prices are not the cheapest, but the detail & quality is up there with the very best so at £1.66 GBP / $2.85 USD a vehicle, I think they're not bad. But despite the fact I'm being unbiased in that view, I know you wont believe me as I'm clearly involved ;)

Personally I'd bevery interested to hear views on the infantry pricing as well. In that area, I think the prices are very comparable at 10p/fig & in my personal opinion, its the awesome detail on the DRM infantry which is making even me buy some.

And just to clarify, I do work for them, but I'm a full time painter-I work for the love of it not for the money so have no money to spend on my own figs anymore – if I actually BUY models for me, nomatter who its from, its a big deal! ;)

Cheers,
Paul "TuffSkull" T.
mercenarybrush.com

This sounds like a familiar topic on TMP. The price of miniatures. DRM has not release their figures yet so right now you are just basing your decision on prices alone. It is too soon to really judge. 6mm miniatures (especially in sci-fi) range from true 6mm to 8mm. GW Epic miniatures tend towards 8mm in scale while GHQ vehicles are 6mm (possibly 5mm). From the information I have DRM is making their figures to be more in scale with GW Epic stuff so it is closer to the 8mm scale of things. I own GHQ 6mm miniatures, GW Epic 6mm miniatures and GZG 6mm miniatures. When you compare them GHQ looks considerably smaller than GZG or GW. A GHQ WWII panther tank (main battle tank) is smaller than a GW epic Leman Russ (main battle tank). The GHQ infantry is considerably smaller. GZG miniatures match closer to Epic but their stuff still tends to be smaller than Epic. So some GZG vehicles work fine while others just look out of scale to Epic. But all of this is without looking at any DRM stuff in person.

So how can you condemn a line without even seeing it in person? I guess it is easy if cost is the most important issue when you make a choice as to what figures you buy. Which is fine. A lot of people do make their choices based on price. We all do really, just the levels vary. But personally I am looking for a 6mm sci-fi line that is comparable in scale and quality of Epic. So for me I am willing to pay a little more to get what I want. I am a stickler for the visual side of the hobby. I want figures to be in scale with each other not just be labeled as 6mm. I also will choose quality higher priced miniatures over cheaper less detailed miniatures almost every time. But how can you make a decision without even seeing them in person or perhaps a photo of scale/detail comparision with other manufacturers miniatures? The only way I can can see is if price is your most important factor.

Hi Douglas,

Thanks for checking in, and taking the time to reply in a measured tone. I hope you took in the complimentary parts of this thread, as well as the grumbling! You've done the first thing right, which is to produce a unique and attractive line of miniatures that is generating a lot of interest, and I'm sure we all hope you go on to success (and bulk packaging). ;)

Cheers,

Christopher

I think price is a fairly legitimate factor… I mean, in 6mm you need a lot of figures to get a good sized army… at least for the sorts of games I'm interested in.
If I can look at the price/figure at the outset… regardless of actually seeing the things… and see that I can't really afford an army… why even start?
I like the GW Tau stuff for Epic… but I can't afford it so I won't even buy one measly figure so as to save myself the temptation/frustration.
These new figures are nice… but the price seems high for the QUANTITY you get… and that, in the end, may nix them for me.

I was excited about the range, but I agree with some of the posters that the price just left me cold. On one hand I support the indy workers out there trying to create their own lines and get their companies off the ground and in a position to expand the line. Still, as a consumer its natural to do price point comparison and these cross that nebulous line I have as to what I'm willing to pay for the figures.

Pixel your comment that "This isn't advanced calculus. He has startup costs that he needs to make back. Therefore his prices will be higher than competitors that have already made abck their initial startup costs" doesn't make a lot of sense. If this were correct then every manufactuer would lower prices at some point down the road. New companies would never stand a chance in the marketplace if this was correct. I believe Old Glory is an example of just how wrong you are.

I also believe that perhaps the direct market approach might be more viable for a small business. Cutting a distributor in may mean that the prices are set too high so that everyone can get a slice of the pie. I wish them the best. However, pricing IS a large consideration for the marketplace and your success or failure there.

YMMV.

Thanks,

John

Maybe some discounting scheme for army packs can be devised — $50 USD for a mech infantry company with a dozen APC's, a couple of mortar or direct-fire vehicles, and twenty to thirty infantry. That would give an incentive for someone to drop a good chunk of cash all at once while still beating the per-pack price.

I'm definitely thinking I'll have to pick some up, one way or another.

I have taken the good and bad points of the pricing and it has been noted, it just really hard to get right.

For those who talk about the business side of things, well for my part I have invested over 20 000 pounds into this and the future releases and it doesnt stop there. Its all very well saying that this or that is a bad business choice/idea but then again it isnt your money thats being used to do this in the first place and so far there isnt many out there that was willing to change the limited supply of 6mm to take my own money so I did it myself.
Dont get me wrong, as a consumer myself I know that value does mean a lot, but to be honest if I was to cater for representatives who have quite good discounts and anything else just to make sure that the miniatures is ultra cheap then I might as well not have done this at all.
As mentioned before my current job wont support this forever and if the company cant support itself then no one will get anything. Top that off with more investment needed to release more miniatures in the future it makes me wonder what certain people had in mind regarding how the company should price and make ends meet. My salary supports my wife,myself and this project…. it can only stretch so far and to be honest its the best its going to get for the time being, I cant do anymore than that as I mentioned earlier, not without either giving up a representative in the U.S which means you pay for P&P and Import duties or suffer on the Quality and future releases in some way.
Bob Naismith has done wonders for the miniatures and I am really pleased with the results but it isnt cheap.

I certainly wont be putting the prices up but I would consider discounts though based on bulk orders of some type, that would have to be worked out.

What I would like to clear up is which prices are we talking about my own on my website or Heritage Studios?

If its Heritage Studios then I am not really in a position to say or promise anything, I can only comment about my own prices from the U.K. Just thought I should clear that up.

All I can say is that no one is forcing anyone to buy DRM miniatures and if you dont like the prices then thats fine. Whatever the case if the venture falls over it falls over and at least I gave it a try. It may cost me a bomb but at least it was worth it.

Doug

Quoting Questor:

well pricing yourself out of sales is not the way to pay off your initial investment, that you have to plan to do over the course of 3 to 5 years and you should not plan to do more then brake even the first year not counting your start up capital.

If I break even in the first year based on what I am preparing then I would be really happy. As it is I view the DRM selection rather small and was surprised when I was told the selection isnt as small as I thought.
I think the start up capital is the main thing here as its so variable that people can overlook it. To keep things going and ensure that I have stuff for the future as well as casting the current models I have past my start up capital easily, and since I am a picky person I know that it will continue to climb until I am satisfied that either its a no go company or that I have reached a level where the models have a decent selection for every race currently due to be released and the future stuff become a formality.

We have talked about few 6mm companies out there and I just wondered what other companies did when they started in this area and whether they continued to develop and improve their ranges? GW not included. Is there any companies who started 6mm, with good quality and cheap prices? If there are I would like to know since it would be worth its weight in gold if I can look and see a successful model and change mine appropriately.

Ros/Heroics. Irregular.

Thanks,

John

Both of those are great examples. I know Napoleonic gamers who by themselves have the entire OB for Wagram at 1:60 scale using mostly ROS/Heroics, and a couple different groups who have theatre OB's in 5mm for the entire 1809, 1813 (yes, Leipzig), and 1814, and 1815 campaigns. That's people buying several *thousand* figures each.

Given that historicals (especially Napoleonics) tend to be more figure-heavy than sci-fi, but maybe it doesn't have to be that way?

Both those have a big selections of something I dont have and thats historics. Whatever they are doing, it seems that if one thing isnt so good then the other supports it.

As DRM are only Sci fi thats not an option for me. I dont know its history but I saw irregular 6mm models and to be honest they are not using someone like Bob Naismith to sculpt for them(Not disrespect intended at Irregular).

As for Heroics not much on the sci fi front but much more of the other stuff.

So John forgive me when I say that these are great examples but not really for sci-fi and both will not have the range DRM will have. The examples I asked for was meant for sci fi 6mm and not historices as these are very different and are not comparable. So I look forward to other suggestions relevant to this point you are trying to make.

DRM will not be doing historicals and so thats not something I will try to follow since its not what I want to get into.

Douglas
DRM

Here's the problem with complaining about high prices, most people who odn't know the full story. IF I had to guess as to why their prices might seem high, I'd say that because scifi lines don't traditionally do well in large quantities and to do nice miniatures you have to put some extra effort into it, especially at the small scale ranges. After looking at their website, the miniatures are really good for the scale.
Second, they're also in it to make some money, and they could price them closer to cost, but then it doesn't include things like the time made to create them, the molds and the castings, the creative juices to make the lines and so on.

I think that DRM's Prices are about right..

I WOULD love to see most 6mm companies begin to offer some Bulk deals. especially DRM and Adler

Thats something that has been mentioned before and I will be looking into that as I like the idea myself.

Doug
DRM

Hi

From what I have seen of painted DRM figures on mercenarybrush.com, then look very high quality of design, scuplting and also painting. I particularly liked the range of buggies.

I do think some sort of army pack or bulk discount would help attract gamers who like to buy complete army in one go. I am sure that will come with time. Can't wait to see them in the flesh at Salute 2006.

Cheers

James

FYI, both do Sci-fi ranges as well. I admit they aren't the same quality. However, I don't believe that was the question. And at this point we won't know whether DRM will extensively develop its lines, either. No disrespect meant. I'm sure the marketplace will largely determine the further creation of new items.

I don't really have a dog in this fight. Your stuff is quite incredible. I just believe that as a general rule companies succeed or fail based on whether their consumers perceive there to be value. I wish you well. Oh, and for the record I have been an owner and involved in running a business in the hobby with as large an investment as you mention. Been there and done that.

:-)

Thanks,

John

Just like to say good stuff, i'll probably pick up some of the buggies if nothing else, oh and that 15mm sized chicken walker.

Price wise dosen't look that bad, more than GZG or Brigade where i'll still be buying the most probably. Still stuff like the buggies are interesting and i'm still looking for a really good dropship. Oh and 6mm aliens are hard to come by so i'll probably be looking at the lizardmen guys as well.