" The current trend to use unpainted miniatures " Topic

My kind of guy, Pilum!

Please, be friendly for the fraternity of the hobby. Direct the lovers of the unpainted mini army to someone from among the many painting services, and give those artists a chance to add to their income. The "lazy" gamer then gets a painted army, and the painting pro (from one-man band to small team business) gets work.

Like I said, rude elitist snobs that will not allow someone to play without painted minis (and not loaning painted minis to game with) are the ones killing the hobby.

I don't know of any wargamer that won't loan a new person the use of a unit or two. So your whole argument is specious. You no longer need to be abusive and judgmental. The poor and downtrodden don't need protecting today.

On a different subject, I have found a reason to put primed unpainted figures on the table (not that I would). It is when the figures are better looking primed than after my paint job. I have these lovely Copplestone 'Wars of Louis XIV' figures. I swear my painting simply does not do them justice. It seems to cover over their beauty rather than enhance it.

Rich

Personally, I try to paint all my models, and i prefer to have them being the only one used, but my masses of yet to be painted models some times see the battlefield, and so i have no problem with others who do not use painted models, though i prefer it if they are painted.

Your troops fight better when they have paint on them – it's an indisputable, scientific fact! Take pity on your opponent with his unpainted/ring-in bunch of motleys as you grind them into the dust! That's how I always looked at it anyway.:)
I've got no problems with unpainted models, in club games anyway, as long as I know they're eventually going to be painted. I would not be happy to see unpainted stuff at a tournament or something I'd paid money to be at – if I ever went to one.
I've been wargaming since '83. Back then you NEVER saw unpainted armies even in club games – warhammer or otherwise.
I believe the rise of the unpainted hordes came with the advent of plastic miniatures and I think I know why. Metal mini's you can acetone again & again until you're happy with them. With plastics you've only got one shot. I think that might put a lot of people off painting their plastics if they don't like the way their metals came out. Most of the unpainted stuff I see these days is plastic.

Paint your Minis!!!
If you are lazy, this idea might help you get fast and good results TMP link

Note: I am in no way connected to the Army Painter and I would stress that probably any "magical dip" might work…
Cheerio ;)

I personally think that in a perfect world everyone will be gaming with painted miniatures. But, this is not a perfect world. If people want to play with unpainted miniatures in public then that is their prerogative. And it is also someone's prerogative to refuse to play with someone who plays with unpainted miniatures. But, as "ambassadors" of the hobby I think that we should be mature about it in public.

If I were asked to partake in a game with unpainted miniatures then I would politely decline to join the game. If I was set to participate in a bring-your-own miniatures and someone showed up with unpainted miniatures then I would suck it up, keep my mouth shut, and play the game. If I were to say something I would try to put a positive spin on it and make it encouraging (as in encouraging them to paint and reminding them that in some games painted miniatures make it easier to quickly and accurately identify different units).

If someone is deadset against gaming with unpainted miniatures then I would suggest that if you are organizing an event and do not want unpainted miniatures that on the event notice you make it clearly known that unpainted miniatures are not welcome at the event. If you are adamant about no unpainted miniatures then encourage others to do the same thing with their events.

I think we have an obligation to the hobby to try and ensure that everyone plays with painted miniatures that are a credit to the games that we play, but I think that being rude about it is a bigger disservice to the hobby. (And for the record I am NOT accusing anyone in this discussion with being rude about anything. I am merely voicing my views on this topic.)

On a side note, one can always offer to paint someone else's miniatures! One of my friends from years back hated painting miniatures and for several years I painted his miniatures for him, and he paid me one unpainted miniature for every miniature that I painted for him. This got his miniatures painted and helped me get some minis of my own!

Used to play a lot of football (soccer) In many different leagues ..no shin pads or correct boots even down to a matching kit (some officials required numbered shirts which were compulsory for cup games) You would NOT be allowed to play.

You can still have a friendly kick about in the park with one side shirtless and wear any shoes you wanted,still had fun.

Above are two examples of a hobby in two extremes, the organised league same as wargames tournaments with fully painted up armies and the kick about in the park which is similar to a wargame with unpainted army match ups which are still fun.
An old club mate did get the hump with a pro-nonpainter .H eventually managed to get him to paint figures by always playing proxy figures against him to make a point about incompleteness.it worked and as a result a necron and viking army were painted up by the fellow.

For me, I prefer to have painted an army, but there are times when you kind of need experience first.

One example was when I started playing 40K, I wanted to play Space Marines, however, I wasn't entirely sure which chapter I wanted to play and didn't want to waste a month painting them for one chapter before deciding that I hated that one.

Then you have cases of a newer ruleset where you're working out what you want in your army. 40K brings another example with some of the tanks where you but the kit and there are several major options that each require different modifications.

Or a case where you aren't sure if you're going to keep playing the ruleset. Or if there'll be others willing to play that set.

I loved the Gorka Morka ruleset, only played it twice before the initial group decided they hated it and it took quite a few years before I found anyone else who wanted to play and I'd have rather spent that time painting one of the other armies I played with.

Hell, look at new games and if people can assemble and paint before trying it.

I've never seen a horse come back from the dead before.

An erudite horse that makes some good points, at that.

Alas, there are differences between the older "event" type historical gamers, who *know* they are building toward a big club event for the Bulge, or Second Bull Run, or Waterloo, and the (typically younger) 40k player who will be using his models on the table every week against any and all comers in no specific OOB taken from no particular campaign.

The "younger" player's forces live to travel, and spend most of their time in the army transport. The older player's forces don't need to travel constantly, and can afford to spend months on the project table.

I'm not in a club. I only game with my adult sons and a few close friends. We've been running a 40K campaign for 16 years. Originally only painted figs allowed. The campaign slowed down because new units/vehicles were being painted to completion. At one point we only played 3 games one year. Changed a rule; new stuff could be used as soon as it was assembled, but each time it was used again it had to show progress, primed, base coat, etc. Everybody got excited. The next year we played an average of 3 games a month. Armies grew and everything got painted, slowly, but it got finished. A buddy and I have recently started a WWII 28mm campaign. We have started with skirmish rules, Disposable Heroes, using Para's both U.S. and German. I initially painted up 2 squads per side. My buddy wanted to use the Red Devils so he bought some. He was so excited to use them that we had an unscheduled game for this occasion. the game was fun, but he confessed to "not being much of a painter", I told him when he wanted to play again I would help him out. pointed him to get primer, paints, and have the Devils primed for the next game. He showed up, a quick painting lesson, we painted up 2 squads in a little over an hour then a game. What a Blast the game was! After I told him what to do to finish his guys. 2 weeks later he showed up with the squads finished as well as a command section and support teams. He is becoming a painter and his strength is detailing tanks! This is a hobby, something we do with our spare time that we enjoy. Don;t criticize some one who hasn't spent 15 years studying and painting historical figures. The new person discovers this hobby, gets all excited and wants to jump in. Now one pf us who is already in puts down his efforts or won;t let him play because he didn't paint his army. Encourage him, offer advise. He made an effort in buying and assembling his army, now just the right amount of motivation will have him painting and finishing units/sections soon. We acquire alot of knowledge so our guys look 'right'. Share this knowledge with those who are just getting in, it can only help this hobby we love,

My club has a policy of not allowing unpainted figures on club nights because it was felt it did not reflect well on the hobby….and I was there at least ten years before I knew about it because everyone naturally wants to paint their stuff….. and everyone seems to see painting as the way to gaming.

basic and undercoated does appear, but it's not common

I got my first lead figures when I was about 9 years old from my dad (who was an illustrator by trade), who had painted a box of Ral Partha goblins, a (small) Balrog and Treeman and some assorted character/ adventurer knight types for me.

Much as I sulked, cried and generally pleaded, he wouldn't paint any more figures for me. Some thirty years later I'm still painting and improving and have been brave enough to show stuff on TMP to good reviews!

Modern acrylics are a vast improvement on the enamels everyone used back then, and there's infinitely more reference material and tips available.

I'd suggest that people who do enjoy painting just have to get stuck in, and those that don't should get an army that's easy to paint, or go for a small scale skirmish type game that needs fewer figures.

I'm not a fan of the 'quickshade' method myself, but you could bang out a unit of 28mm WW2 British infantry in an afternoon and they'd be more than good enough for a decent demo game.

When I work hard to make realistic terrain, and put effort into making my miniatures look nice, I like that work to pay off. Visibly.

Having an unpainted or partially painted army on the board wrecks the whole look.

It makes no sense for a wargamer to invest endless hours trying to make his or her things look good, and then let unpainted miniatures on the table and ruin it all.

Of course, I would make accommodations and possibly exceptions for newer gamers who truly are working at their starting collections.

After listening to this kind of opinion, you might be surprised to hear that I've at times entertained the thought of doing an incomplete world.

You know, with pick foam board insulation visible, untouched plastic ruins, unpainted miniatures, bare tree armatures, etc. It would all be from an artistic perspective.

It would definitely be temporary, since all that stuff has excellent wargaming potential. But it may be fun for a short time.

If you don't paint the miniatures you might as well play with matchsticks. They look just as good…

While I would never play with unpainted figures, to each their own. I've seen lots of convention games where the aesthetic was the least important part of the game.

For example, at a small convention a decade or so ago I saw a 6mm ECW game where the armies had been spray painted in solid colors, and all the scenery was (were?) felt cut-outs. The aesthetic of the game really bothered me. But after watching for a few minutes, it became apparent that the folks playing were having FUN. Ultimately, that is why we are all involved.

Example numero dos: While playtesting Pirates! 3rd Ed, a gal showed up to a game with a ship made out of a milk carton. It was not a clever conversion. It was a milk carton turned on its side, spray painted red with some dowels shoved in for masts. I considered it a visual atrocity. But there was no one at that table that got more into the game or had more fun than that gal. In hindsight I wish I still had that level of enthusiasm and was not so jaded about the appearance of things.

What is ultimately bad for the hobby is people NOT playing. What their figures and scenery look like is really a tertiary issue.

Being a wargaming-snob is no better than being a wine-snob or… <GASP> a beer snob (you know who you are). Let folks do what they want to do because, after all, it's just a game.

- Rod

Why Rod, you say that like it's a bad thing! ;o)

Mark, you know Beer Snobs take all the fun out of drinking beer! It should be a crime, dag nab it. :)

- Rod

Not a CAMRA member then…? ;o)

Ultimately you can do whatever you want with your minis but I do have 3 thoughts I'll add just to get folks riled up (impish grin). 1) Putting painted minis on the table is, and always has been, one of the "givens" of this hobby, 2) Coming to game night with unpainted minis is the same thing as coming to a Live Action Role Play event in jeans, T-shirt, and sneakers when everybody else has made the effort and commitment to show up in garb, and 3) I have a career, a very active family life, several other hobbies and pastimes; and a couple civic volunteer activities as well. All the minis on my table are painted with care and attention. Tell me you can't afford to do it, tell me you don't know how to do it, tell me you don't like to do it, tell me you just aren't that committed to the hobby, or even tell me you just don't give a hoot; but don't try to B.S. me and tell me you don't have time to do it.

Get a life folks – or explain it terms of declining standards.

As one who has not worn a jacket and tie for 8 years I revel in slobbishness.

And when was the last time a boardgamer painted his counters?

Years ago the group I played BattleTech with declared that unpainted models took double damage. That cured it pretty well at the time. I'm a fan of such.

Will I tell someone they can't do that in their game – i.e. a game I'm not part of – nope. But will I comment that I think models are better painted? Sure.

Cheers,

The Bandit

Two thoughts on this:
1) Do whatever is good for commerce. Let the guys buy & game with unpainted lead. More gamers = more money in the industry. Don't want to exclude anybody who is willing to slap down some dough and buy something. Capitalism baby, capitalism…
2) Personally, I prefer painted miniatures. I support scoring systems like they use in, say, Flames of War, where part of the participants tournament score is based on figure painting. (something like 1/5th…)
Pretty good system to encourage gamers to throw on some paint.

As someone who's taking the hobby up again in a serious manner for the first time – I've dabbled in the past but between travel, girls, relocating, work… and I'm 29 at the time of writing – I have to admit I've bought four of the seven armies (a mix of 15mm-1/72 historicals, one 40k marines, a few 15mm sci-fi, gangs of 28mm sci-fi for Necromunda or Tomorrow's War) ALREADY Painted.
Now see this is my point – if it's the GAMING I'm after, I can buy painted armies. Or the bulk of an army already painted. One can find almost any scale/period/genre on ebay, bartertown…right here on TMP!
Now while I'm gaming with my painted Dwarfs for Kings of War (bought painted, I remind the reader) I'm doing up a Skaven army for KoW as seen on my blog
link

I'm also doing a Mantic Orc army up and two sets of 28mm sci-fi (a gang and an Enforcer troop)
In my shed there are 15mm WWII, 6mm WWII, 15mm Vietnam and more Warmaster than I can poke the proverbial at (the OTHER proverbial, you dirty old men…LOL!)

My point is basically if I came across someone who wasn't painting their stuff I'd suggest they opt to buy something ALREADY painted. Even if only a third of their army, or half. Then bulk it out over time painting what they can when they can. Because the truth is I love this hobby with a passion (Napoleonics aside…sigh!) and appreciate the people I meet, the environments, the histories, the fiction, the research, the gaming (YUP, that's a BIG one!) but also the painting. I find great solace in the solitude of it. But if someone's just starting out, maybe on a limited budget….cut the kid some slack. Give him the benefit of the doubt. People did with me. If I'd run into some of the not-so-gentlemen who've posted on this topic I may have been scared away.
There's a middle ground between "lazy and uncommitted" and simply unsure/starting out. If it turns out a month down the track after three games nothing's gotten any paint on yet cut the kid loose. But the outright "you-me…no game" approach is probably the reason so many posters only play with a small intimate group of players. Though they may believe it's because that's the way they like it, it's not. It's really because they've forgotten what it was like to do something for the first time and lack the compassion to give the new kid on the block a go.
Grumpy – old – and probably men.
My two cents

thestrategon.blogspot.com

I'm in the painted or nothing camp.

I will NOT play with an unpainted model in my army.
If I want to use THAT new unit, then all of the models in it WILL be painted. They may not be finished, but they will have at least two colours (not including primer)and some detailing done.

I couldn't care less if anyone else I play follows this practice, but I'll enjoy the game on a visual level far more if they also have a painted army.

I play Robo Rally with the bare metal robots.

And take stick for it.

Painted is noce, and aspirational, but there is room for a range of options in this broad church of our hobby. And if it means someone will learn to enjoy our hobby, then no problem for me.

"I'm in the painted or nothing camp."

How about if you use paper figures to try out rules? I personally think the Billy Bones figures add their own "olde tymie" flavor to the game. But I have a friend who says "paper miniatures are as bad as unpainted miniatures."

"They may not be finished, but they will have at least two colours (not including primer)and some detailing done."

How about if a player fields a CS regiment that is primered gray but the flesh is painted?

Six years of thoroughly beaten horse…

If you're not going to paint your minis I don't know why you're not just using printed out pieces of paper. That's what I did when I was trying out warmachine.

It's an integral part of the hobby and too many skip out on it.

Farstar

It will no doubt get tender soon, if not from the beating, certainly from decomposition.

But it is entertaining to reflect on the good luck I have not knowing some of these people.

Each to their own. I prefer a) painted and b) accurate representation of the figure or unit in question (e.g. Orcs do not equal phalangites) BUT it depends on the environment. If its an environment where everyone else has made the ffort, and the terrain is good and so on, then yes, should be on a par. However, if someone wants to unwrap their shiny toys and use them, then I would prefer not to dampen their enthusiasm by not allowing them to be used. Heck when I first went gaming as a kid to a club I was 12 and my painting was rubbish, but the adults all played against me, gave me advice on how to paint and one even painted a figure from each unit for me to copy. I'm still hooked 30 years later…..

I'm still hooked 30 years later…..

ahhh…heroin….I mean…miniatures!

actually gin and cognac….:) But metal, plastic and resin have an imbibing effect of their own….

Heavy metal poisoning and those hydrocarbons they make plastics from. That's why we paint our figures OHS

I just wanted to posit that there are things that can be done to see more painted minis on the table.

Start a group that only uses painted minis. I won't put an unpainted figure on the table. My current gaming group only plays with painted minis, but we always have extra painted armies or warbands so that anyone who wants to join in can do so. Thus we can keep our own standards, while remaining a friendly, welcoming group of gamers.

We also make a point of encouraging and admiring each other's work, sometimes making monthly painting pledges, and offering assitance and advice whenever asked for it.

In short, get involved with other gamers and be an encouragement rather than a whiner.

I must be the only frivolous player with toy soldiers.

I shudder to think what your company's dress code is like.

During the 70's when I first got into wargaming as a spotty 12 year old I was a fanatical Napoleonics fan. At my local group at the time (Stoke Wargames Group) I would drool over the huge table crammed full of beautifully painted figures and dream of the day that I would own such a collection. Back then I was quite satisfied with the 1000+ French and British figures I collected and SPRAYED… Brits were red, French were Blue… Golden days.
Since getting back into the hobby I wouldn't dream of putting unpainted figures on the table, however if both players (or a solo player) are happy to do so then who are we to question it? I hate painting but very much look upon it as a necessary evil. No one should be ridiculed or be put off wargaming simply because they don't have the time, ability or inclination to paint a whole bunch of figures.

Bravo!

After reading alot of these posts something dawned on me. I never even considered having unpainted figures on my table. After 30 years in the hobby I never played a game with unpainted figures. Mine or anyone elses. No one ever mentioned it as an option.
Interesting thread but IMO very few folks generally play with unpainted figures.
The non painters are folks that really care far more about playing the game then any visual presentation. Thats obvious!
If thats their enjoyment…so be it but not on my table….

I suspect that some of these people mow their lawns wearing a jacket and tie.

God knows what they would think of someone who has (gulp) drunk Veuve Cliquot out of a tin mug.

Using painted figures is hardly an elitist activity.

I guess to some folks it is.

I might be weird (OK, I am) but I have never even thought to use unpainted figures in a game.

Unless it was a board game…

I might be weird (OK, I am) but I have never even thought to use unpainted figures in a game.

Unless it was a board game…

WHAT? I paint my monopoly counters :)

Seriously though, I don't care about bad paint jobs, mediocre paint jobs or brilliant paint jobs. I just want to see paint on miniatures.

I've never even thought of using unpainted minis. And honestly until my group started playing Warhammer I had never seen anyone play with unpainted minis. In fact, the only games I've ever seen using unpainted minis were Warhammer games(at stores and group games)

Wow. This old thread won't die!!
Painted for me. Never even considered other wise. But some times its a pain to find the time and the lead mountian gets bigger and bigger. :o)
Max

Ok this Topic has had 300 prier postings since 27 Feb 2006, and in all the years since I started Wargaming (1973) I have never seen "unpainted miniatures" used at a game. Not at a game at someone's home, at a local groups, or at a major convention.

Now I have seen some miniatures that were painted so badly that they should have been left unpainted!

But that's another topic!

Not too keen on unpainted figures on the table especially metal figures. However buying figures keeps the manufacturers churning stuff out. So although I will always paint mine, more power to the folks who are content with the naked versions, just don't bring them to my table.

Damn I'm such an elitist.

It's more prevalent among those who are into complete package miniature wargaming where the game/rules is emphasized more strongly. You're far more likely to see unpainted Flames of War, Warmachine, Warhammer 40k, etc., miniatures than you are to see unpainted X with rules from publisher Y.

Unpainted FoW? Really?

I understand Warhammer and Warmachine, and 28mm RPG minis in general, but painting 15mm WWII is about as easy as it gets. Even their website photos are not setting the same sorts of OMG expectations that make Warhammer and Warmachine players feel inadequate as painters.

That said, I've met a few rebellious sorts who have somehow translated "I don't feel like painting my stuff" into "I don't want it painted at all." These are the ones that really mystify me.