"Stalin Sought to create super-ape Soldiers" Topic

Stalin sought human-ape super warrior
EDINBURGH, Scotland, Dec. 20 (UPI) — Recently uncovered secret documents in Russia reveal that Soviet dictator Josef Stalin wanted to develop a super army by cross-breeding humans and apes.

Documents form the 1920s show scientist Ilya Ivanov was ordered to research the development of such a super-warrior and fodder for the Soviet workforce, The Scotsman newspaper reported Tuesday.

Stalin, the account says, told Ivanov, "I want a new invincible human being, insensitive to pain, resistant and indifferent about the quality of food they eat." Soviet social engineering sought to make a "living war machine," the newspaper said.

The documents claim Ivanov's attempts to use monkey sperm in humans failed, the Scotsman said. Ivanov was exiled to Kazakhstan in 1931 and died a year later.

© Copyright 2005 United Press International, Inc. All Rights Reserved

This is a curious one – i remember a one-off marvel story from when i was a kid, about super warriors created by the Nazi's by mutating Jewish Prisoners with Apes (of course they turned on their creators – don't they ALWAYS?).

I wonder how Ivanov inseminated the females? I know there are some pretty ugly Russian girls, but c'mon – the disco party Ice-breaker must have been a bit tense – women on one side of the room, Monkeys in the chandeliers. And is there any truth in the rumour some of his efforts succeeded and were smuggled into the Human Population? (picks flea from wife, eats Banana.)

Pat

Correction – that should read 'Eats Banana, Flees from Wife'

Pat

Maybe he just should imported some Marines?

lol, serously? Marines were tougher than Sovs?

Ho Ho

Pat

If you had seen some of the propaganda that the Soviets produced on the US Marine Corps, they were very worried about the Marines.

Marines, both US and Royal, are and were superior to Soviet troops. They are better trained, led, and motivated. The Soviets were conscripts and they had no professional NCO corps.

Sincerely,
Kevin

Methinks the Gandalf smeled the word "marine" onm a post and came to hurl his condescension on the posters.

Boy, I can't type today!

John,

I think you need to look up what condescding means. There's nothing condescending in the posting. It's too bad that you always accuse before you ask. Not good form at all. In fact, your attitude is condescending.

Sincerely,
Kevin

Does anyone manufacture ape soldiers in 15mm? I need a unit of these…. ;)

I figureed this was pretty common knowledge – I mean look at 28mm figures… (we need an emoticon for ducking)

This plotline is similiar to Greg Bears "Darwins Radio" if memory serves.

Decent sf/thriller.

That explains the unibrow on Brezhnev.

apparently they DID try using Marines, but the Babushkas expressed a preference for the Monkeys.

Pat

well marines grunt lots, make the monkey like gibber of
"hoo ah", look like a bunch of dumb apes and fling poo.

I would say the sovs were sucessfull.

"Soviet dictator Josef Stalin wanted to develop a super army by cross-breeding humans and apes."

Wonder if he got the idea from Tarzan's Mangani?

"I wonder how Ivanov inseminated the females? I know there are some pretty ugly Russian girls, but c'mon-"

Banana scented undies?

-Warren ducks and leaps for cover-

I would suggest that the Soviet Union had it's 'elite' troops in much the same way the Western powers do. Yes, the bulk of their army was conscript(as would ours be if we had actually gone to war with them), but they had elements with much more esprit du corps. I would say that the Soviet Airborne, Spetznaz and Artillery were much better trained and motivated than your average line regiment.

So, to say that the Soviets had no units comparable to US or Royal Marines is misinformed.

'So, to say that the Soviets had no units comparable to US or Royal Marines is misinformed.'

No, it's a judgment call, based on study and experience. I've also seen first-hand their artillery equipment, and that includes more than the artillery pieces themselves.

For example, their compass is based on 6,000 mils, not 6,400 and their gunner's quadrant is very crude. That equates to not-so-accurate fire control and targeting. So, no, their artillery is not as skilled, nor does it have as good equipment as the US and NATO.

Not having a professional NCO corps also hurts an army immeasurably. Officers have to do the NCOs job as well as their own, and that can never be a good thing.

I'm pretty sure that one of these creatures was the floor woman at the Hotel Ukrainia when I stayed there. She was simian in appearance and very hostile.

is this Bug still causing problems? Surely Gandalf didn't post that reasoned argument?

Pat

is this Bug still causing problems? Surely Gandalf didn't post that reasoned argument?

"I want a new invincible human being, insensitive to pain, resistant and indifferent about the quality of food they eat."

This sounds like me at about 3am on a drinking night.Beer armour gives the feeling of invincibily and insensitivity to pain, and anyone willing to eat a kebab must be at least half-monkey.

Pat

This sounds like an urban in the making. I've heard of the Marxist Manpanzees last week, but the supersoldier claim was absent. I suppose someone made it up because it souded cooler.

link

Many of the female ones escaped and settled in the UK, in Manchester. Must have been the climate and grey skies that reminded them of home.

Gandalf-

Last time I checked, the quality of your equipment doesn't win the war for you, nor the professionalism of your NCO corps…just ask the Germans.

I am convinced that, had the Warsaw Pact invaded Western Europe they would have won. Oh, I am sure we would have killed scores of them, but it is strategic reasoning…the vast majority of their forces are right there, whereas all American reinforcements have to come across the Atlantic. Mathematical equation really, they'll get to the Rhine before you get to Europe.

I will grant you that if they didn't secure the Rhine before the bulk of the US forces arrived there would be a devil to pay! However, having watched the US public opinion sour over a mere 2000 military casualties, do you really think the US people of today would stomach losing tens to hundreds of thousands of men for Germany?

Fortunately, we'll never knwo how that could have turned out…woulda made a great wargame though!;-)

I was stationed in Europe twice, participated in one Reforger exercise and saw how much material and equipment, plus manpower the US could move a very long distance over a short period of time.

I also saw the (then) West Germans in the field, as well as the British and French.

If the Russians had tried it, and if they had gotten to the Rhine, they wouldn't have had enough people left to get up a ball game.

And, yes, the quality of equipment matters a great deal, especially in a mechanized army where the breakdown rate and the ability to sustain itself matters a great deal.

Not having a professional NCO corps means you don't have a professional army. The US learned that lesson with the Continental Army. It takes far longer to develop effective NCOs than it does effective officers. That lesson is older than Sun Tzu as well as the Romans.

Sincerely,
Kevin

Hi

Curiously, I submitted an opinion on this directly to the higher ups… my point was then, decades ago, that the logistics didn't exist, that the russians hadn't the capabilty.

Basiclly they run out of gas in 10 days with no way to make it work. We don't they lose.

That simple.

Part of my presentation was that their economy wasn't working, a simple glance at a photo of Moscow did not show the sort of rail and traffic required by a city of that claimed size and economic force.

But you don't get appropriations for your projects by saying: We think the Russians are a Paper Tiger.

Rocky

Gandalf-

Well, SOMEHOW this Soviet army managed to defeat the most advanced and professional army in WWII so I'd submit that their defeat isn't a foregone conclusion. Also, military maneuvers and the 'real deal' often bear very little resemblence to one another.
I'm not arguing that our economy wasn't superior to theirs, however I am not entirely sure this would have made a difference. The bulk of NATO's economic and military might is on the wrong side of the Atlantic. It would be a huge material and personal cost to get them over to Europe, especially since the Soviets would have been engaged in aggressive submarine warfare.
Also, most importantly, the Soviets could sustain high casualties and keep fighting the war, NATO could not. This annoying democracy thing is a drag on fighting a war all out. There would be protests and draft card burnings and civil disobedience, who wants to die for Germany after all?

Gandalf, nonsense, my experience is similar to yours. I think you're forgetting reforger depending on getting stuff across the ocean.

Our forward defence policy meant we were toast conventionally. No opinion on Rocky's stance, but every staff college graduate I worked with figured it would be ten days or so before NATO was forced to go nuclear to stop the tide. I dpon't know about northag, but the only strategic reserve CENTAG had was us, 4 Canadian Mech Brigade Group. 2 infantry battlaions and 48 Leopard 1 A3s… not terribly re-assuring… That was classified stuff when I was in, but surely is not any more.

Hopefully, they don't see me writing this and I disappear…

You're forgetting the prepositioned equipment in Europe. There was at least two and a half divisions' worth-US divisions.

Quit blathering about this NATO/Warsaw Pact nonsense and get back to the monkeys. That's the interesting part.

EVERYONE was better trained than the Russian, LOL.

So Stali tried to create a super-ape warrior? Too bad it failed and all we were left with is Rosy O'Donnell :)

'Well, SOMEHOW this Soviet army managed to defeat the most advanced and professional army in WWII so I'd submit that their defeat isn't a foregone conclusion.'

You may have an argument for the most 'professional' army in War II (though it sold its soul to the highest bidder in 1934 which is hardly professional), but it definitely was not the 'most advanced.' It wasn't ever entirely mechanized, as most of its transport and artillery were horse drawn from 1939-1945.

The British were the first army in Europe to be completely mechanized, and the US Army was completely mechanized by 1942.

Gandalf-

True, they weren't completely mechanized. However, they managed to hand England and France their collective butts on a platter in 1940 AND in Africa until 1942. Of course, once Germany declared war on the US(stupid, stupid, stupid!) and England wasn't captured, they war was as good as lost.

I would say that a Warsaw Pact attack in Europe would have been much like the German invasion of Russia in 1941. Oh, there likely wouldn't have been any grand envelopments or anything. What I am refering to is the very short amount of time the Soviets would have had to succeed. If they reached their objective(the Rhine)in a relatively short period of time they would win the war. Yes, I realise that NATO(read:the US) would still have the military power to launch a counter-offensive, but I don't think that the Western leaders would be able to do it politically; the public opinion would be totally against wasting American lives for a lost cause(Germany). Coincidentally, the Soviet leaders would have had no such drag on their military decision making.

As far as using TAC Nukes is concerned, I am quite sure the West German government would have much rather been RED than IRRADIATED so they would have refused to allow their use on their soil.

I disagree on the motivation for a general European war started by Russia and the Warsaw Pact.

I also disagree that either tactical nuclear weapons (a somewhat ridiculous term, by the way) or chemicals would be used.

There simply wouldn't be any point.

Sincerely,
Kevin

Tactical Nuclear Weapons is a 'ridiculous term'? Well, since their range is rather limited that makes them a 'tactical' weapon rather than a 'strategic' weapon. Also, their yield was significantly less than the startegic weapons we would have been dropping on cities.

Also, it was standing orders for NATO that if the Soviets weren't stopped by a certain point the nukes would be used. I think it is a stupid strategy too, Gandalf, but that was reality.

Fortunately, we managed to 'dodge that bullet' in the end.

'Also, it was standing orders for NATO that if the Soviets weren't stopped by a certain point the nukes would be used.'

Really? Could you provide evidence for that? Even a hint? I have never seen nor heard of that 'standing order' and would like to have access to something like that.

I would agree that the Russians probably believed it, as the US was the only nation that had actually popped two nukes on targets in combat, but I don't see the basis for your comment unless you have specific evidence for it.

As for your separating nuclear weapons into tactical and strategic categories, it is mostly superfluous. A nuke is a nuke which is a very simple concept. If one is used in either category, the rules have changed and there is no going back.

Sincerely,
Kevin

[Stalin Sought to create super-ape Soldiers]

And a few escaped here to TMP!

I thought Nato doctrine was called "variable response "in that it could be at any point in the conflict and that was never announced, the idea being to help deter the Russians. Since they never could be certain when Nato would go nuclear it was a convincing case to not start a war.

During the Reagan years Andrew Cockburn wrote "Threat – Inside the Soviet War Machine" which went into a lot of their real problems in the military end of things.

Finally my only question is when were the Russian gonna find that many sexcrazed and not too choosy female apes. "Great news comrade Stalin, the vodka in their bananas is causing endless orgies."

Or I could imagine a record by the Red Army Chorus and Band featuring hits like:

"Gorilla of My Dreams"

"I want an ape just like the ape that married dear oh dad"

Looking at some of david pentland's painting of Soviets at Stalingrad, it would seem Pentland had the inside running on this story a while ago; his paintings of soviet infantry dragging a Maxim MMG show a marked anatomical similarity to orangutans

I always thought that the Sliders' Kromaggs looked like Russian-ape hybrids:

picture
picture
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kromagg

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Some are giving this some thought:

TMP link

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