"Heraldry or Colors for lessor Men at Arms" Topic

This is for Barons Wars period.

I will have 70 mounted jndividual figures, each with their own unique herladry on shirts, shields and horse clothing.

I'm seeking advice on what to do with lessor foot knights and sergeants. During this period did these have some livery derived from the respective noble? I believe by WotR they did, but not sure here. I could do more generic heraldry.

Thoughts appreciated.

I believe you are correct, in that livery was a later development. All of the histories I've read, and the period paintings, suggest that there was little to nothing in the way of uniformity among the commoners under arms. But wargame necessity may sometimes trump historical fidelity. It is very helpful to be able to distinguish between the sides. Some subtle ways that might work and which wouldn't be grossly anachronistic:
- spear and lance shafts might all be painted in an inexpensive paint – black, white, or dull red
- shields or helmets might likewise have been given a fresh coat of paint by the Duke's armorers, in which case they would have used the same batch of black, red, white, ochre yellow, etc.
- perhaps all of the gambesons of a particular lord's followers are new and clean
- maybe there are regional differences in the leatherwork, one faction tending more to reddish leather while the other side has darker shoes, belts, saddles, etc.

Of course there were signs such as crosses for troops on Crusades and/or under the King's banner in foreign wars, but that might not be applicable in domestic and local wars.

For Sergeants, I would try using a simple 'Per Pale' of the primary colours of the Lord on Shields or Tabards EG:

For lesser Knights, Heraldry was still pretty much in its infancy, so you could use a simplified form of the Lords devices or something completely unique!

Hope this helps?

Livery no. But coat colors seem to predate proper livery. Trying to remember the date of some bandit said to have his men all in one color "as though he were a lord." Between that and just wargaming convenience, I wouldn't hesitate to put someone's following all in a common color--a cheap dye, you understand, not all quite the same color, and with some facing and staining.

Which sounds like some units I was in the field with during the Cold War. But still…

I was thinking about something akin to your idea on Pale. How about adding others and just randomizing the colors? I'm thinking only do the shields, the shirts being a solid color.

Tnis link has the basic patterns -

link

Serjeants were hired professionals who provided their own gear, so some sort of unique blazon on each shield. Common colour coats do sound plausible. Even Knights' heraldry wasn't particularly formalised yet, so coats and caparisons are probably same colours, but not necessarily the full pattern that's on the shield.

When I put together my forces, I did use unified colors for each grouping. I like to say the armies are modeled from the late Lancastrian period of the 100 years war to the second weekend of the Renaissance Fair.

This means my Orleans group has blue and white base scheme. The leaders have blue shields with white fleurs de lis and lesser nobles have white or blue shields with blue or white symbols. All surcoats are quartered blue and white.

Not historically accurate, but is does keep the battlefield orderly.

Other groups use a similar pattern with yellow/red, green/white…

This is a FLckr album of painted figs thus far – not my work. I'm pretty pumped about it. 70 personalities all present at Lewes. Major inspiration was the outstanding Project Lewes website.

flic.kr/s/aHBqjCrxV2

Fabulous work.

I'm going back to my crayons and paint by numbers now.

Oh, my. Fantastic work, Duke.

To be clear – not my painting. I have neither the time, nor most importantly the talent. I get TMJ pain just looking at them.

Painted in USA by a great commission painter. Work always outstanding.

I usually paint some with red, blue, or plain beige so they can be used for whoever.

There was a similar question back in 2011 TMP link

There is a link to an article about livery development in England from 1200 link

In a non-English context and a decade or so before the 1st BW, just about the best example of how contingents could be identified is in the Liber ad honorem Augusti sive de rebus Siculis.
There are a few places where one character has a more distinctive device, in this case a lion link whereas the troops with him have the same colours but either no device or a simple bend. There are a couple of other instances in the same set of pictures. The whole book can be seen at link

Surcoats – whether livery or not and even when worn by an arm-bearing lord – were often a different colour to the coat of arms and certainly didn't always have the full arms on them. There is no sign of them on Robert Fitzwalter's seal for instance.

I would only put a device on a sergeant's shield if it is something to do with his lord, assuming that the Sicilian examples above were used in England. (Despite common cultural similarites across Europe, heraldic usage in Germany, for instance, was quite different to France). A mercenary sergeant wouldn't be armigerous in his own right. Some city militia may have had devices relating to their city but I can't remember anything particular for England.

I have painted most of my 'lesser' troops in English and French armies with plain shields. Just because they could have had something on their shields, doesn't mean that they did. There are certainly plenty of plain shields shown in period illustrations though annoyingly the scenes are often biblical rather than relating to the actual country. As Striker says, that has the advantage that they can be used for whoever.

In the games I play, each base of knights is often assumed to include sergeants etc, so I can use the men with heraldry to represent the whole 'unit'.
My blog link has some links to various Barons' Wars. I need to start going through and replacing the pics which were held on Photobucket.

Outstanding info and site.

I intend on having a Mounted Noble with all foot units aside from Missile troops.

One of the delights of the Barons' Wars is that the nobility still fought on horseback rather than shambling around on foot like later. It means you get to paint the caparisons too!