"Your views on 13th century livery?" Topic

I am soon to paint a number of sergeants and retainers for my mid-thirteenth century army (English) and am wondering just how speculative I have to be.

How do you show them? I am assuming some degree of uniformity based upon heraldry should be my guide.

Hi

Personally, I like to simplify my life! Unit cohesian, percentage casualties and the like are important in the rules and artifically assuming a sort of uniformed motif by "unit" just helps be speed up my game when the "run away" part comes.

Rocky

Period sources such as the Maciejowski Bible might suggest a lesser rather than a greater degree of uniformity:

picture

Gambesons and akhetons can either be "natural" or colored. Surcoats could be solid colors drawn from the lords' devices, I suppose.

Allen

I love the unholy glee that the artist put into the gore! Did mounted troops really use two-handed cleavers like that? Or is the artist indulging in artistic license in order to make bisecting of the victim more visually believable?

Of course uniformity all depends on the lord. If he was really into the aesthetics of the thing, all his troops would be clothed in matching colors; shields would bear his battlefield insignia; and some lord might even (obsessively) require that the horses of his household knights be of matching coloration. Display is everything to the OCD feudal lord!…

There are a few instances, especially towards the end of the century, but they don't seem to be common. Ian Heath mention's some in Armies of Feudal Europe – e.g. a Norfolk contingent in white. He also describes a robber who is described as buying cloth to outfit his men "as if he had been a baron or an earl". By the early 14th century they seem to be quite common across Europe but it is difficult to know when and where the custom started.
I wouldn't worry too much about using the heraldry of the lord as a guide. From what we know about later periods the livery and heraldry could often be very different and certain colours were far more common than others.

One thing you might show is a field sign. During the 2nd Baron's War, I think de Montfort's lot wore a small white cross and in response the Royalists wore a red cross. This would probably be insignificant in 15m and not exactly prominent in 28mm though.

From the Codex Manesse (early 14th Cent.) picture check out the infantry in the lower left hand corner. Uniform appearance, but not in uniform IMO. Dean

Talking of the Cod. Man. there is at least one standard bearer who is wearing the same colours as his lord. However I think there was more tendency for Germans to do this.
One difficulty with medieval illustrations is that there is a possibility that an illustrator will use different colours to make a picture more interesting. I wouldn't discount them as evidence but it does have to be borne in mind.
Another 13th century example which springs to mind, though not English, is the Count of Jaffa's 300 oarsmen who all bear his arms on a target. They might be mentioned because of being unusual, so it isn't hard evidence.

Plenty of evidence for the provison of cloth as a form of livery (the word just means some form of subsistence, strictly speaking, anything from clothing to food and drink to a roof over your head). 'Liveries of robes' were porovided by aristocrats for both the civil and military households. So yes, for household troops you could conceivably dress them in livery. As has been suggested there is nothg to suggest that it has to be in heraldic colours (civilian liveries were often different colours on different occasions). Oh, mis parti (clothing in two different colours divided left and right) seems to have been a fourteenth-century invention, and then an aristocratic fashion. Doesn't become the thing for servants until the latter half of the century.

Far more common, as Swampster suggested, is some kind of field sign. The crosses at Evesham mnight alos be political; the white cross was a badge worn by the barons who pushed for the signing of Magna Carta. Other badges for the period are not really attested (the livery badge, per se, is a late fourteenth and fifteenth centruy adoption) so go with whatever you fancy but I would suggest keeping it small.

The Comte de Jaffa's arrival at Mansourah is picked out as being splendid and flashy, but Joinville (author of the source) doesn't suggest it to have been unsusual.

Oh and Suffering succotash; the two handed thing in the Macioejowski Bible quote is not seen anywhere else but, given that the rest of the depictions are bang on for mid-thirtenth century arms and armour, there is no reason to think it never existed. Some suggest it might be a 'fussar[t]'.

Is it possible that some of the city militias or lord's troops could have been supplied with matching shields even though a "uniform" might not have been present? I had read that some of Edward II's bowmen were wearing a St. George's cross on their sleeve or arm guard during the Welsh invasion, don't remember where I read that though.

Allen

Yep, the "fussar(t)"--which is also shown in the Maciejowski Bible held by an infantryman--may also be considered a glaive. We discussed that once here when trying to identify the "Godenak" (?) used by a Foundry figure. This thread shows some of the variation in "chopping" weapons in various ms.:

link

See also:

link

Allen

"I had read that some of Edward II's bowmen were wearing a St. George's cross on their sleeve or arm guard during the Welsh invasion, don't remember where I read that though."

Heath's AFE.

Oops, sorry I meant Edward I, and Swampster I think you are right. Also, there was an article in a magazine years ago that mentioned it as well I think, but cannot remember which one.

Allen

My thanks to everyone for responding. Some very sound ideas and references. My army is approaching half finished and yes, I was aware of the field signs. Whilst I feel this is simple enough for the more common man, I was more concerned with those henchmen in regular service to a greater tennant. For my army this is a small scattering of figures throughout what is an entirely irregular looking force. I certainly like the comment about depending upon the personal preferences of the lord – that is shaping up to be about the size of it.

How does this sound …

My thinking for my mounted sergeants (and it's probably no more than an inclination) is to have those few figures represented as such with rudimentary 'uniform' overshirts and this will simply be represented by shirts of the same block colour – nothing fancy.

My real hesitation has been with their shields. At this stage I'm representing two retinues if you like. One for Simon de Montfort and the other for Robert de Vere. I'm comfortable with speculating what a retinue shield could be with de Montfort's men as I'm just going for a simple halved field in red and white like his banner. That way it's clear they are his men without the common man too closely mimicking his Lord's heraldry – which they wouldn't have the status or rights to bear.

De Vere's men is a tricky one for me. He has a quatred field gules (red) and or (yellow/gold) with a mullet argent (white five pointed star) in the first quadrant. What do you think if I represent the colours by the red overshit, a plain yellow shield with the white star in the same position (except the field is not quartered). That way the yellow, red and white star are all represented?

I still remain open to suggestions. It looks like we are all operating in an information vacuum. I'm thinking that as this period (second Barons War) whilst tumultuous, was not the prolonged period of warfare and skirmishing of the later Wars of the Roses period, as such the retinues were not co-operating in military engagements regularly or operating in roles much beyond local security and law enforcement. They would not, therefore be requiring the same degree of field recognition which a strictly regulated livery system would provide.

Any further commnents are always gratefully received.

Thanks again.

I've just come across an article
PDF link
which covers 13th century livery.
Most of the instances refer to small numbers of retainers receiving cloth and/or clothing from their lords, though not necessarily in a military dress contetxt. It gives the first clear reference to military livery being in the early 14th century but doesn't seem to rule out earlier usage.

Wonderful article Swampster – thank you very much for sharing. Read it through straight away.