"French 34th Line Infantry Regiment uniform & shako puzzle" Topic

When researching the French 34th Line Infantry Regiment, which I plan to collect and paint up as part of my new 28mm Napoleonics, I came across two puzzles. Firstly, the colour of their uniform in 1808-1810. Was it white or blue? Juhel in his Histoire & Collections title, The Battle of Ocana, 1809 (page 59), displays them wearing white, while Haythornthwaite (Osprey MAA 141) Plate F, figure 2, shows an officer of the regiment (1810), wearing a blue uniform? After considerable research I could nt find anything that confirmed which colour they wore in 1808-1809? Haythornthwaite also mentions that the office had a regimental cockade instead of a plate on his shako. However, I've not been able to find any information concerning what the rest of the regiment wore on this shakos? Any advice or info on these two puzzles would be much appreciated. The fun of research!

You will find some info on the regiment here, but it seems the chapter on uniforms wasn't completed:

link

Oliver. many thanks for link. A site full of info but sadly, it did not answer any of my questions. I thought it was going to when part of it mentioned the colour of gaiters (black and grey) but when it mentioned jackets it only said how many. I could so no mention of the colour of the uniforms or anything relating to the shako plates. The search continues. (or I could make life easier and consider going for a different regiment!)

Will post a set of links when I get home, but in summary 34th did not wear white. Only 12 regiments were issued with the white uniform.

Napoleon's White Uniforms: link
From the Napoleon series – although about the 3rd regiment it does contain general details: link

Boisselier drawing of 34th in Spain
link
link
link
link
link

Part 2 from the Napoleon series – about the 3rd regiment it link

Prince of Essling – Many thanks for info and links. Lots of information there, although I could see no actual dates relating to the images? And it seems strange that Juhel in his Histoire & Collections title – The Battle of Ocana – depicted a Fusilier from the regiment wearing a white uniform and displaying a plate on the shako. But the links do seem to confirm that the officers appear to have worn a regimental cockade, rather than a plate on their shakos, as depicted in Haythornthwaite's Men-At-Arms 141 title.

Further stuff on the white uniforms.

The White Uniforms of the French Army, 1806-1807
Described by Guy C. Dempsey Jr., illustrated by R. J. Marrion.
link

"1806-07 French white uniforms question" Topic TMP link

I can only assume Juhel in his Histoire & Collections title – The Battle of Ocana coloured the 34th after what had been authorised rather than reality. I note Bueno's "Los Franceses y sus Aliados en Espana 1808-1814" text has the 34th in white! But again my conclusion is as for Juhel.

I have posted copies of three articles concerning the white uniforms on Mediafire downloadable below:
Hans M. Brauer – Die „blaue" und „weiβe" französische Infanterie von anno 1806-07 – Zeitschrift für Heereskunde, March 1930 link
Tradition 107 – Les Bleus sous l'habit Blanc link
Rousselot Planche 3 Ligne Infanterie link

I would wait the autumn or winter 2025/2026 before to have, maybe, the definitive answer about the regiments clothed in white or not

it is usually considered that 25 regiments were concerned by the decree or others causes

however I remember a little sentence coming from some searcher who explained that there were 30 regiments for fact, and realistically over 70 concerned…

Principality of Ansbach, 17th may 1806,

You may not be unaware, my dear Mother, that by the beginning of the year 1807 the line regiments must be dressed in white, ours is one of them, and I will thus see myself obliged to no longer use my grand uniform which cost me a lot, and which I have not worn more than fifteen times. I will therefore ask you, in a later time, to be kind enough to purchase the cloth which I will need, and you would take the value from what you are kind enough to give me

Sous-Lieutenant Pascal Robert, 34e de ligne

not yet, not soon, will be probably the 8th and penultimate volume in the series published after :
4. Austerlitz 30th May this friday
5. Light Infantry & Artillery 31st August (135e to 156e de ligne, Guides, Sappers…)
6. Revolution 30th September
it seems that the 7th will be the Line Infantry 1812-1815…the 9th about Officers

The most comprehensive review of the French Line Infantry respecting the 1806 regulations.
The predominant uniform colour of the French army was white, and the last white habits disappeared in 1809, following a brief regulated return to white in July 1808.
A LOT of myth about white uniforms. The first were adopted in 1805 to solve the issue of unit visibility.
About 60 to 70% of the army had white. Over 30 regiments for fact, and realistically over 70. It was popular. The white uniform allowed each regiment a distinctive uniform, unlike the homogenised national uniform. It also meant, you could see what units were where on the battle by their facing colours.
The headdress of the French soldier till summer 1808 was predominantly the chapeau. The archive of every regiment of Ligne that existed up to 1812 is discussed, as are all the various uniform regulations from 1806 to 1812. Our research shows how the Line was dressed behind the myth and glamour of grenadiers swaggering in bearskins- which few actually did.
Paul Lindsay Dawson

Lilian – The 1806 extract from Sous-Lieutenant Pascal Robert is very interesting and seems to confirm the regiment wore white, for a time at least. And I will keep an eye out for the Dawson title that covers the French Army from the Battle of Jena to Invasion of Iberia. Many thanks for your info and help.

Prince of Essling – Thanks for links. I managed to download (or rather my wife did) the Rousselot and Tradition 107 links. Sadly, I was unable to translate them into English. It seems clear though that many regiments appeared to wear white uniforms, including the 34th Line, albeit for possibly a short period. And it was interesting to read the extract from Sous-Lieutenant Pascal Robert, provided by Lilian, which seems to confirm the regiment wearing a white uniform, at least in 1806. Overall, it could be that both Juhel & Haythornthwaite were correct, in that the Regiment wore white uniforms up to 1810, when they appeared to have changed back to blue. Of course, there may be information out there that says otherwise but that's what I'll go with for now. Many thanks for all your help.

Actually the extract says that they have been told to convert to white, and that this Sous-Lieutenant acted immediately in anticipation of the change. I'm hopefully not just been obtuse here, but, interesting as it is, I don't think it *proves* the whole regiment did in fact convert to white. As is so often said however, since both seem plausible, your miniatures, your choice :~)

Cheers,
John

@Erzherzog Johann,

Your interpretation is correct. I rmemeber reading elsewhere that an officer anticipated the conversion only to find ourt that he had wasted his money!

Ian

Erzherzog Johann & Prince of Essling – Yes, you both could be right. What we really need is an extract or evidence that the regiment (or at least other regiments) did actually wear white, possibly in action at some point. By that I mean in Spain between 1808-1809. Then we need evidence that confirmed when they changed to blue uniforms. However, for now, I've not yet come across any evidence to confirm they did not wear white! The search continues.

As a slightly off topic question, riding piggy-back on this discussion, is there a source of information I might consult as to the colour of cockade<i/> the 34e Ligne would have been wearing on their shakos in 1811?

Regimental tradition suggests that after the battle of Arroyo Molino in 1811 men of the 34th Cumberland regiment, having rounded up a portion of the 34e Ligne as prisoners, may either have taken the French shakos as trophies, or simply their regimental cockades which after the war were commemorated with red and white 'tufts' worn a little on their own shakos.

If the cockades of the 34e ligne were indeed red and white that would give some basis to a tradition which is otherwise sketchy in origin?

Gazzola,

Maybe this adds some context: unless there was a specific order, uniforms in general tended to get worn until they wore out. In addition, battalions often tried to keep the white uniforms as they emphasised differences: the facing colours being more visible. So:

At the outbreak of the Revolution, most regiments wore white.
1789: National Guard raised with blue coats.
1793: Blue National Guard uniforms get issued to the half brigades of the line infantry – but changeover is haphazard. No other uniform change until
1807: Bonaparte orders white uniforms to replace worn out blue, but crucially (perhaps contradicting Lilian's quote), "only a few regiments actually received the new items, before the idea was abandoned in
1807"*: blue confirmed as the infantry colour.

"Haythornthwaite also mentions that the office [officer?] had a regimental cockade instead of a plate on his shako."
That would be consistent with a general officer.

* Pivka, France, Armée – History – 1789-1815.

Nice collection of articles from Napoleon Online mainly in French at PDF link

42flanker,
"If the cockades of the 34e ligne were indeed red and white that would give some basis to a tradition which is otherwise sketchy in origin?"
Their voltigeurs may have had red cockades on white pom-poms.

Bueno & Archard illustrations of the 34th in Spain in the main show the standard cockade (from the centre outwards) – blue, red then white. There are a couple figures where it may look like just red then white but I suspect this just how he has drawn the fastening to the centre of the cockade. See examples below:

Also, voltigeurs were supposed to have red on yellow cockades or pom-poms but Young Guard used red on white.

link

(perhaps contradicting Lilian's quote), "only a few regiments actually received the new items,

fully contradicting Paul Lindsay Dawson British searcher and author having led 25 years of investigations in primary sources and regimental archives at the French Army Historical Service contrary to many others authors or writers often based on secondary sources

with "over 70 regiments" concerned as pointed by PLD, it is a little more than only a few given the Line Infantry had 90 Regiments at that time…nearly 78%
It can be said rather all the opposite : only a few didn't receive the new white uniform
so I will wait next November to have a definitive reply and another myth debunked by PLD

Lilian
As anyone who witnessed my demolishment of Hofshroer's literary inventions on these boards and others fifteen years ago, for which he had no answer, would know; there is one hard and fast rule in history: anyone claiming to "debunk myths" is not a credible source.

" '(perhaps contradicting Lilian's quote), "only a few regiments actually received the new items",'
fully contradicting Paul Lindsay Dawson British searcher and author having led 25 years of investigations in primary sources "

Pivka (Digby Smith)'s research career spans over 40 years! How about we both be careful to avoid retrograde appeals to authority. All evidence must be compared and reasoned.

The full quote I have from Pivka is:
"In 1806 [not 1807] Napoleon ordered white tunics to be issued to replace blue but only a few regiments actually received the new items before the idea was abandoned in October 1807".

We have these orders:

On 13 February, 1805 Napoleon ordered white uniforms for the 3rd battalion of the 18th Regiment of the Line and the 3rd battalion of the 4th Legere (light infantry).

Shortly thereafter the War Ministry announced that the infantry would continue to wear blue only until 1808.

25 April, 1806 twenty regiments were ordered to receive the white uniforms by 1807. Aside from the Dutch Grenadiers who kept their white and crimson, only the Imperial Guard would retain dark blue coats.

These were the colour distinctions ordered for
lapels, collars, cuffs, and turnbacks on the French White Uniforms:

Regiments. Distinctive colours.
1 – 8 Imperial Green
9 – 16 Black
17 – 24 Scarlet
25 – 32 Capucine
Bright Nasturtium Orange
33 – 40 Violet
41 – 48 Sky Blue
49 – 56 Rose Pink
57 – 64 Aurore
Gold Yellow
65 – 72 Dark Blue
73 – 80 Jonquille
Bright Yellow
81 – 88 Meadow Green
89 – 96 Rouge Garrance
Turkey or Madder Red
97 – 104 Crimson
105 – 112 Iron Gray

But, we have to be careful. Not only did commanders often change the actual placement of the colours on the coats but (please note OP Gazzola) contemporary portraits exist of officers in the new white uniform when none was ever issued to their regiments.

The regiments that received the white uniforms were the 3rd, 4th, 8th, 14th, 15th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 21st, 22nd, and 33rd. In addition, two line infantry regiments not on the original list also received the new white uniforms, the 12th and the 53rd.

This would suggest the 34° linge did not receive white uniforms. And "receiving" is not "wearing"; bear in mind the tendency for regiments to wear uniforms until they wore out.

This is crucial: at Bonaparte's review of the Grande Army (which included the 34th) at Tilsit in July 1807, only the 12th and 21st regiments wore their (nominally) white uniforms. They looked so disgusting, that he appears to have
decided that the infantry should keep its blue uniform.

According to Lienhart and Humberts, Les Uniformes de Armee Francaise 1897, several units continued to wear the white coats until 1811, but not those. Then, when uniform supplies trickled to nothing in 1814, white coats came out of storage for another brief appearance.

Based upon this, it's not looking good for the 34th line to be wearing white after 1808.

Pivka (Digby Smith)'s research career spans over 40 years!

and the half of this period spending money and time between Yorkshire and the French National and Military Archives in Paris and Vincennes maybe?
If so he had already debunked myths such as the trumpeters and musicians of the Dragoons in reversed colours, or the Elite companies in bearskins, or the Light Infantry in blue uniform or with the Line Infantry following the Bardin regulations or the voltigeurs companies with distinctive yellow colour not to mention regimental sappers and bands a true festival of colored myths and fantasy between Venice Carnival and Mardi Gras, or he already found that the 21e Chasseurs à cheval was dressed with Line Infantry uniforms or others Chasseurs still keeping the Hussar style with dolmans and pelisses until 1814 while Hussars regiments had no pelisses nor even dolmans…
to each his own job

57-64 Aurore Gold Yellow

accurate source indeed…?! Not at all, it is a kind of bright light ORANGE

The regiments that received the white uniforms were the 3rd, 4th, 8th, 14th, 15th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 21st, 22nd, and 33rd. In addition, two line infantry regiments not on the original list also received the new white uniforms, the 12th and the 53rd.

13e 23e 46e 66e…non-exhaustive list of course

well speaking about colours, by the way

According to Lienhart and Humberts, Les Uniformes de Armée Française 1897,

a source painting the gris argentin of the 3e Hussards like a common grey of the ACW soldiers of the Confederacy, fully inaccurate

as already said rendez-vous in November at the very best, following our proverbial peasant wisdom "It's at the end of the fair that we count the cowpats"…

I havè the 3rd,15th,32nd(with brown facings),33rd,34tĥ,53rd,105th,and 111th in the white uniform since 1973. THESE are 30mm SCRUBY figures.

105e and 111e why

What French Regiments were issued the white coats in 1806?
TMP link

I forgot the 45e with Major Lamarque d'Arrouzat

and also this point concerning a doubt between 34e and 32e in Spain

the infantryman reproduced in a gouache from the Dubois de l'Estang's collection bearing the annotation "painted by Limmer November 4th, 1812" would tend to prove that the white was still worn in 1812.
To which regiment he belongs? The 34e de ligne according to the number placed on the plate of the shako, to the 32e de ligne according to the capucine facings and collar, while the 34e should have purple lapels and facings
maybe there is an error about the number or he was a soldier of the 32e passed to the 34e, both regiments were in Spain
We can also try to explain the cut of the habit,
according to the form of the regulation of January 19, 1812 despite the circular of April 12, 1812 which prescribes to make the replacements of 1812 to the old uniform, and decides that the decree of January 19 will only be applicable to the replacements of 1813. The circular of March 13, 1812 announced the forthcoming dispatch of models of the new uniform and it is likely that many regiments, impatient to wear it, immediately made the clothes according to the new cut, without worrying too much about the ministerial decision

if the 32e de ligne wore the white habit in 1812, it was not the only one in the army, since the decree of January 10 kept it for the Guard of Paris

J. Margerand
La Sabretache 1906

so be careful Gentlemen before any definitive conclusion about which regiment was in white or not

@ Lilian: You wrote: "why 105th and 111th?"

These units were painted for me and accepted on faith!

Ray Jackson