"What French Regiments were issued the white coats in 1806?" Topic

I read that the white coats hung around in some regiments up to 1812. That being the case, I want to utilize Fizzure Johnson's 18mm French "Campaign Dress" to paint up some very ragged looking men in white coats. What regiments specifically where issued them? Would it be safe to assume most who had white coats would have been wearing shakos around 1809? Where all the white coats in Spain? Can someone point me in the right direction?

Hardly any in the 1806 campaign, they began to show up 1807, there are conflicting sources about that topic, one has to wait for the book by Paul Dawson to see what units did have the white coat for a while, in 1809 it was hardly worn again.

For now see discussion "The White Uniforms of the French Army, 1806-1807" TMP link and "French in white" TMP link

The white uniform experiment began in February 1805. Napoleon ordered the 3d Battalions of the 4th Legere and the 18th Ligne 'into white uniforms for a large-scale trial.

Apparently, the trial was a success and nineteen ligne regiments were ordered into white in April 1807. The long-range plan was to have all ligne regiments in white by 1809.

Some of the designated regiments did not go into the new white uniforms or designated certain companies or battalions only to do so. Some regiments 'jumped the gun' and went into white anyways without waiting to be designated.

Some regiments wore white into the field in 1806 against Prussia. Some regiments wore a mixture of the blue and white uniforms. White did not stand up well in the Polish winter and Napoleon ordered the infantry back into blue in 1807.

The following ligne regiments were actually issued the new white uniforms: 3d, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 21st, 32d, 33d, 46th, 53d, and 66th.

Guy Dempsey is an excellent historian and uniformologist and his material on the subject is solid.

Here's an interesting article on the subject, from "The Napoleon Series"

link

Part 2 of the article linked to by Dave Jackson is at link

For what it is worth, I have a memory of a French commander at the start of the Danube campaign being quoted as happy that uniforms were now more… uniform. In particular he mentions that hats had been replaced by shakos and the white uniforms were all gone at last.

There was something written like that out of the Peninsula, too, Artilleryman. St Cyr? Suchet? But it was even later--1810 or 1811. And I doubt they were the last in the French Empire.

not usually listed among the regiments having received the white uniforms : 45e de ligne
Major Lamarque d'Arrouzat

In November 1809 Suchet (operating in Spain) wrote, "The medley is over, no more hats, no more white coats". If there were no white uniforms being worn in Spain by late 1809, I'd say the chance of there being any in 1812 is next to zero.

As to the hat vs shako, I asked this a while back about the 1809 campaign against Austria, hoping to justify a few to add variety. I became convinced that the hats would have been long gone.

Cheers,
John

Some officers had their portraits painted in the new white uniform that their regiments might be put into the next year. The commanding officer of the 53d Ligne had his painted also in the proposed uniform.

Some regiments went into white 'ahead of schedule' also. The 45th Ligne might have been one of those.

Was it the expense and or temporary shortage of indigo dye? White though? Did it cause friendly fire casulaties as Austrian's uniform in white. Think the Saxon's had same problem in 1809.

Marc Moerman put this on a face book group

Marc Moerman
Don't forget that the blue colour came from the import of indigo, which was missing for the uniforms of the soldiers once the continental blockade was installed. It was only after the French chemist Charles Philibert de Lasteyrie introduced the pastel blue that some sort of the same colour could be achieved, while for officers, probably still indigo was used, but at quite a higher price, imported in France by smuggling. My source : link

also please bear in mind that you could achieve a dark blue with woad which was used in other armies.

White was just a convenient way to re establish Ancien Regime fashion, Boney also wanted to change the colours – more in line with the old Ancien Regime as well, the project was never realised.

An officers coat doesn't necessarily say that the soldiers also received white coats, as on one eye witness report an overeager French officers got a white coat made for him and lamented later that it was useless there the regiment never switched even temporarily to a white coat.

As to shakos, you have to wait for Paul Dawson again – who assumes that it took quite a while to equip the line infantry with it.

THANK YOU EVERYONE! Very useful ideas and links! Lots of great information!

Just to clarify i was looking for a regiment that fought outside of Spain that may have kept they're white coats around by that time.

Yes, so since regiments in Spain were the least likely to be well supplied, I think that if they'd finally transitioned back to blue by November 1809, then there definitely wouldn't be any still in white by 1812. If you want some white uniforms, maybe build some Westphalians or other allies that wore white.

Cheers,
John

this may help as well

link

Thank you Johann! That was the one I was thinking of. Just to be contrary, though, remember Suchet was writing of his own forces, and he'd made a special effort. Doesn't necessarily mean there were no more white coats or bicornes anywhere in Spain--and it doesn't say they were burned. They might have gone to quartermaster stocks. I'd agree that a French regiment was highly unlikely to have worn white coats into Russia. Someone would have to show me a direct contemporary reference. I wouldn't expect a regiment in Spain to have all white coats even in 1810--but I wouldn't be surprised to see some. There is, always, the one lucky fellow who somehow wasn't present for the uniform issue. (I think I was almost the last man at Fort Campbell to swap out his M1 helmet for a Fritz. I'd been on TDY for the issue.) And there's also the old NCO who just won't give up the old uniform. I could tell you about some of those, too.

But that's really a 28mm game, and more for amusement than accuracy.

One aspect of the Grande Armee's uniforms is the effort and practice of the regimental tailors. Better uniforms were many times made by the regiments themselves from captured cloth and requisitioned materials.

Dawson's work on Waterloo suggests many pre-Bardin uniforms were turned in after the 1815 campaign, suggesting they were still in use 2.5 years after they were officially superseded. Allowing for the possibility of late issue of old style coats already on hand after the regulation came in, it seems the lifespan of a coat was at least 2 years but possibly longer.

If the white coats were issued then cancelled on the same basis until circa early 1807, it suggests that they could have been around in mid-1809 just as the blue pre-Bardins were still around in mid-1815. Probably not for much longer though.

There was a large stock of the white uniforms and white cloth remaining after Napoleon decided to drop the project in 1807 and keep the blue uniform.

The Garde de Paris as well as the Gardes Departmentals were 'reuniformed in white' in 1808 and the 66th Ligne wore white on Guadeloupe until finally overwhelmed in 1810. The 15th Ligne wore their white uniforms into Spain in 1808 as well.

White uniforms reappeared in 1814 when regulation uniforms became scarce and any type, white included, were issued.

As an aside, the shako was adopted for the infantry in February 1806, although it undoubtedly took some time for the new shakos to finally replace the bicorne.

To know really the uniform and colour of the 129 Departemental Reserve Companies that is another matter, someone has to investigate not only in the French Army Archives near Paris but also operate a travel across 7 countries beginning by a whole Tour de France less Corsica of 87 departmental Archives more a tour in the national and/or local Belgian Dutch Luxemburger German Italian Swiss Archives
in 1808 the Reserve Company of Loiret was in grey with red facings collar and blue pantalons, Oriental Pyrénées choose to be in green, the company of Vendée made one in imperial blue in 1809

Would it be too far of a stretch to assume that do to the slow nature of uniform rollouts (A la the shakos taking a while to be fully issued) That a regiment may have still been wearing them passed the conclusion of the project? I know we have a few sources saying as much

I suppose it depends what you mean by "passed the conclusion of the project". To me 1812 seems very late to still have French troops in white uniforms.

Cheers,
John

What about the former Dutch line regiments? Did some of them still wear their old uniforms in 1812?

The 124e (mixing 3rd and 7th line of former Dutch Army) was still in white at the end of 1811

Utrecht, October 8, 1811. Napoléon to Général Lacuée

I have just reviewed the 18e 56e 73e and 124e. The 18e complains that his knitwear is extremely bad and that the sheets are also badly dyed: indeed the habits are whitish.

The 124e has still 600 white coats. You gave it for 400 conscripts the blue coats which are in store; the depot of this regiment is in Abbeville; it had white clothes with which it dressed his conscripts. As these 400 blue habits are still in store, you have to send them to Wesel. In 1812, the whole regiment will be dressed in blue clothes. Their sheets are superior to ours and cheaper. I don't understand that by spending so much money my troops must be so badly dressed.

***************************************************************

For white habits still in use in 1812

the infantryman reproduced in a gouache from the Dubois de l'Estang's collection bearing the annotation "painted by Limmer November 4th, 1812" would tend to prove that the white was still worn in 1812.
To which regiment he belongs? The 34e de ligne according to the number placed on the plate of the shako, to the 32e de ligne according to the capucine facings and collar, while the 34e should have purple lapels and facings
maybe there is an error about the number or he was a soldier of the 32e passed to the 34e, both regiments were in Spain
We can also try to explain the cut of the habit,
according to the form of the regulation of January 19, 1812 despite the circular of April 12, 1812 which prescribes to make the replacements of 1812 to the old uniform, and decides that the decree of January 19 will only be applicable to the replacements of 1813. The circular of March 13, 1812 announced the forthcoming dispatch of models of the new uniform and it is likely that many regiments, impatient to wear it, immediately made the clothes according to the new cut, without worrying too much about the ministerial decision

if the 32e de ligne wore the white habit in 1812, it was not the only one in the army, since the decree of January 10 kept it for the Guard of Paris

J. Margerand
La Sabretache 1906

with the Guard of Paris we can add the Regiment Joseph Napoléon, both Regiments of Pupils and Dutch Grenadiers of the Imperial Guard also in white

concerning the 4 new Line Dutch Regiments of 1810

Pierre Juhel in Soldats Napoléoniens n°9 confirms that the 123e received also the french blue national uniform before april 1812

and the Historique of the 125e precises that the regiment kept the initial dutch uniform but changes it for the french uniform in 1811

@Lilian

Great information, thanks.