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"Carneville Hussar uniform information if you pelisse" Topic


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Erzherzog Johann30 Mar 2025 12:50 a.m. PST

About a year ago I wrote to this board with a query about the infantry of the Carneville Legion of 1809. I now have a question about the hussars.

Rawkins says, "The uniform was of the same basic pattern as worn by the regular hussars, a Gras-Grün dolman and pelz with yellow lace trim and mixed yellow and black braid on the breast." Acerbi has a (modern) illustration depicting a grass green pelisse also.

However the illustrations the Prince of Essling posted in reply to me last year (2nd post, immediately below my query) TMP link show the hussars wearing a blue pelisse. The first is a more or less contemporary colour illustration; I'm not sure if the colour in the second is contemporary or a modern colourisation. I'm sure I also recently saw a written reference to a sky blue pelisse but I can't remember where . . .

Hollins' Osprey doesn't say either way as I recall.

So what's the verdict? Were they grass green or sky blue. Matching colour of dolman and pelisse was standard in the regular Austrian army by this time but the Carneville Legion were mostly French emigres, so may have had a different influence. I'm inclined to go with Prince of Essling's 1st illustration which clearly shows the blue but I'd love to hear other opinions.

Cheers,
John

Prince of Essling30 Mar 2025 1:41 a.m. PST

@John,

Remember the illustration that I posted was for the early period – it is a modern colourisation.

I might be tempted to go with Enrico's colour for 1809 but I have so far not seen anything to support either colour!

Will keep looking in my digital library to see if i have anything more, but please do not hold your breath.

Just to throw some confusion into this topic.

Empire, eagles and Lions Issue 72, page 42 has this answer by Ray Johnson to a question about the Moravian volunteers and Carneville Freikorps says "The cavalary detachment (66 men) wore a white coat with red facings."

Will keep looking……..

Ian

Prince of Essling30 Mar 2025 4:54 a.m. PST

Hi John,

Just looked at Enrico Acerbi's "Austrian Cavalry of the Revoltionary and Napoleonic Wars, 1792-1815". Page 153 has uniforms of the Freikorps tabulated for 1809-1814. Against Carneville Freikorps it says strength 1/2 squadron; uniform unknown; Note: Not completed 1809.

Pages 259 to 262 are part of the Section on "Cavalry regiments and Corps 1792-1815" (this particular section concerns the Freikorps). It has the early Freikorps Carneville from 1792 to disbandment in 1798. There is no entry for the 1809 unit.

Have now checked Wrede Volume 3:
"Cavallerie-Abtheilung des Carneville'schen-Frei-Corps
Bei diesem im april durch den obrsten grafen carneville aufgestellten Frei-Corps, bestand auch eime Abtheilung Husaren (66 man), welche im December, wie das ganze Corps uberhaupt, entlassen wurde."
or roughly:
In this free corps, which was raised in April by Colonel Count Carneville, there was also a detachment of hussars (66 men), which was dismissed in December, as was the whole corps in general.

Will keep on looking….

Ian

Erzherzog Johann30 Mar 2025 9:59 a.m. PST

Very much appreciated. I wondered if the illustration with the hussar on horseback was coloured later but I thought the one with the two dismounted figures was contemporary.

Thanks,
John

Prince of Essling30 Mar 2025 10:55 a.m. PST

John,

Apologies as I wasn't as clear as I thought I was being.

The two dismounted figures are fairly contemporary – the horseback illustration is certainly a modern one.

Looking at John Hollins' OMAA299 Austrian Auxiliary Troops 1792-1816" pages 21 & 22.

"Two squadrons of Carneville Freikorps Hussars were raised in 1793. Uniforms consisted of grass-green dolmans, pelisses and trousers, with red collars, black cuffs and yellow buttons. The black shako hasd a rosette and a yellow-black plume. Piping, which included ten chest braid loops was black and yellow, as were the sashes. Pelisses were trimmed with black fur, and sabretaches were red."

"1809
The two squadrons of Carneville Freikorps cavalry wore a modernised version of the dark green 1790s uniform with Hungarian cornflower blue trousers, white leatherwork and a red sabretache with 'FI' cypher."

However as John acknowledged on Napoleon Series Forum the cuffs should in fact be red not black.
Ian

Erzherzog Johann31 Mar 2025 12:21 a.m. PST

The fact that the 'fairly contemporary' illustration clearly shows a blue pelisse was what got me questioning what I thought I knew.

Cheers,
John

Prince of Essling31 Mar 2025 5:50 a.m. PST

Grouvel Volume 2 is pretty clear the early hussars wore blue – I have extracted the text & run through Google translate rather than do a rough & ready job myself:

"c) hussards. – Nous possédons 2 documents principaux permettant de déterminer l'uniforme des hussards : Tout d'abord, celui donné par Graffer le jeune : même shako que le chasseur, avec adjonction d'un large galon jaune d'or au haut et de cordons et glands noir et jaune d'or. Plumet jaune à sommet noir. Col noir bordé de blanc. Dolman vert gazon à collet rabattu rouge et parements en pointe noirs, tous trois bordés de tresse jaune d'or et noir; sur le devant du dolman, ro doubles tresses jaune d'or et noir avec 3 rangées de ro boutons de cuivre. Poches entièrement bordées de tresse jaune et noir. Ceinture-écharpe jaune d'or et noir. Pelisse bleu de ciel à fourrure noire, galons et tresses jaune et noir, boutons de cuivre. Culotte bleu de ciel à la hongroise à galons latéraux et trèfles des ouvertures du pont en tresses jaune et noir. Bottes à la houzarde de cuir noir à galons jaune d'or et noir, éperons d'acier. Sabretache de drap rouge bordée d'un galon jaune d'or et orné du chiffre couronné F.II en tresses jaune d'or et noir. Bandoulière porte-giberne et ceinturon de cuir blanc, sabre à garnitures d'acier, dragonne de cuir blanc. Une aquarelle d'un recueil ayant appartenu au peintre Job donne également un hussard de Carneville, légèrement différent : même shako, mais large galon jaune au haut du shako remplacé par une tresse jaune d'or et noir; dolman bleu de ciel à collet droit et parements rouge éc~rlat~; pelisse vert foncé, culotte bleu de ciel; toutes les tresses jaune d'or et noir. Ceinturon de cuir n01r à boucles de cuivre. Sabretache de cuir fauve, la pattelette recouverte de drap rouge, bordée d'un mince galon jaune d'or et d'une tresse en chevron jaune d'or et noir; au centre, le chiffre F. II en cordonnet jaune, sommé de la couronne de même, et souligné d'une bande à boucle en tresse jaune d'or et noir. Housse-shabraque rouge écarlate bordée d'un galon jaune d'or et d'un 2e galon en chevrons jaune d'or et noir, les coins ornés du chiffre F. II en cordonnet jaune d'or; au-dessous de ces chiffres, à l'arrière de la housse, arabesques de cordonnets jaune d'or et noir. Demi-shabraque de peau de mouton noir, portemanteau rouge. Selle de cuir noir. Harnachement de cuir noir à boucles et mors de cuivre."

c) Hussars. – We have 2 main documents to determine the uniform of the hussars: First of all, the one given by Graffer the younger: same shako as the hunter, with the addition of a large golden yellow braid at the top and black and golden yellow cords and tassels. Yellow plume with black top. Black collar edged with white. Turf green Dolman with red turn-down collar and black pointed facings, all three edged with golden-yellow and black braid; on the front of the dolman, RO double golden yellow and black braids with 3 rows of RO copper buttons. Pockets fully edged with yellow and black braid. Golden yellow and black scarf belt. Sky blue pelisse with black fur, yellow and black braids and braids, copper buttons. Hungarian-style sky blue breeches with side braids and trefoils from the bridge openings in yellow and black braids. Boots with black leather houzarde with golden yellow and black braids, steel spurs. Sabretache of red cloth edged with a golden yellow braid and decorated with the crowned numeral F.II in yellow, gold and black braids. White leather shoulder strap and belt, steel-trimmed sword, white leather strap. A watercolour from a collection that belonged to the painter Job also gives a Carneville hussar, slightly different: same shako, but wide yellow braid at the top of the shako replaced by a golden and black yellow braid; sky blue dolman with straight collar and red facings ec~rlat~; dark green pelisse, sky blue breeches; all braids golden yellow and black. N01R leather belt with copper buckles. Sabretache of tawny leather, the paw flap covered with red cloth, edged with a thin golden yellow braid and a braid in a yellow, golden and black chevron; in the centre, the numeral F. II in yellow cord, topped with the crown in the same way, and underlined by a band with a buckle in golden-yellow and black braid. Scarlet red shabraque bag edged with a golden yellow braid and a 2nd braid in golden yellow and black chevrons, the corners decorated with the numeral F. II in golden yellow cord; below these figures, at the back of the cover, arabesques of golden-yellow and black cords. Half-shabraque of black sheepskin, red coat rack. Black leather saddle. Black leather harness with buckles and copper bits.

"La capitulation de l'escadron de Carneville à l'armée de Condé, le 19 juillet 1795, porte que « l'armement consistera en carabine, pistolets, sabre; l'habillement d'hussard complet, avec un gilet d'écurie, l'équipage du cheval garni de shabraques ». La revue d'inspection du 12 décembre I796 donne l'énumération suivante : shakos, visières, cordons, dolmans, pelisses, pantalons, culottes hongroises, vestes d'écurie, bonnets de police, sabretaches, capotes, ceinturons, gibernes, pistolets, sabres, couvertures de laine, selles complètes, brides, mors, filets."

The capitulation of Carneville's squadron to Condé's army, on July 19, 1795, states that "the armament will consist of carbine, pistols, sabre; the clothing of a hussar complete, with a stable waistcoat, the horse's equipage furnished with shabraques". The inspection review of December 12, I796 gives the following enumeration: shakos, visors, cords, dolmans, pelisses, trousers, Hungarian breeches, stable jackets, police caps, sabretaches, capotes, belts, gibernes, pistols, sabres, woollen blankets, complete saddles, bridles, bits, nets.

"Un rapport républicain du 5 mai I796 donne aux hussards de Carneville« le costume autrichien, habit bleu, revers verts, boutons et galons jaunes ». Par contre, Th. Muret, dans son « Histoire de l'armée de Condé » déclare que Carneville portait le dolman vert, la pelisse et le pantalon bleu de ciel, le shako noir. Le comte d'Éon de Cély, dans ses croquis des uniformes de l'armée de Condé, représente un hussard de Carneville, qui porte l'uniforme suivant : shako noir du type autrichien cylindrique, dolman vert à parements rouges, culotte hongroise verte à galons rouges, pelisse bleu de ciel, shabraque vert foncé, portemanteau rouge."

A republican report of 5 May I796 gave the hussars of Carneville "the Austrian costume, blue coat, green lapels, yellow buttons and braids". On the other hand, Th. Muret, in his "History of Condé's Army," states that Carneville wore the green dolman, the pelisse, and the sky-blue trousers, the black shako. The Comte d'Éon de Cély, in his sketches of the uniforms of Condé's army, represents a Hussar of Carneville, who wears the following uniform: black shako of the cylindrical Austrian type, green dolman with red facings, green Hungarian breeches with red braids, sky-blue pelisse, dark green shabraque, red coat rack.

"Dans les inventaires après décès de hussards de Carneville à l'armée de Condé (novembre 1795 à mai 1797), on relève les effets suivants : « Bonnet d'ordonnance, chapeau, bonnet de police, col noir, mouchoir de col noir, pelisse, culotte à la houzarde de drap bleu uniforme, pantalon bleu uniforme ou gris, bottes, veste d'écurie verte, bonnet d'écurie, gilet blanc ou rouge, capote grise, anglaise bleue, portemanteau bleu »."

In the inventories after the death of Hussars from Carneville in Condé's army (November 1795 to May 1797), the following effects are noted: "Ordinance cap, hat, police cap, black collar, black collar handkerchief, pelisse, uniform blue cloth breeches, uniform blue or grey trousers, boots, green stable jacket, stable cap, white or red waistcoat, grey hood, blue English coat, blue coat rack".

"On trouve aussi des boutons grelots de métal jaune frappés d'une fleur de lys en relief qui semblent avoir appartenu à l'escadron condéen de Carneville."

There are also yellow metal bell buttons stamped with a fleur-de-lis in relief which seem to have belonged to the Condéen squadron of Carneville.

"Les officiers portent le même uniforme que la troupe, avec les galons, tresses, cordons, etc., en or; la ceinture-écharpe est or et noir; le sabre est garni en cuivre doré avec la dragonne d'or. A l'armée de Condé, les officiers et gentilshommes portent au bras gauche un brassard blanc liseré de noir et orné de 3 fleurs de lys noires; ]es hommes de troupe ont le brassard blanc frappé d'une seule fleur· de lys noire."

The officers wear the same uniform as the troops, with gold braids, braids, cords, etc.; the sash-sash is gold and black; the sabre is trimmed in gilded copper with the gold strap. In Condé's army, officers and gentlemen wear on their left arm a white armband edged with black and decorated with 3 black fleurs-de-lys; The enlisted men have the white armband stamped with a single flower. of black lily.

"Une miniature d'époque représentant le vicomte de Carneville, le montre avec l'uniforme suivant : pelisse chaussée de drap bleu céleste, fourrure blanche, tresses et galons en argent, croix de Saint-Louis. Cravate noire bordée de blanc, jabot blanc, gilet-dolman de drap écarlate à collet droit doublé d'écarlate, boutons et tresses d'argent, le devant du gilet-dolman bordé, de chaque côté de la fermeture d'un large galon d'argent."

A period miniature representing the Vicomte de Carneville shows him with the following uniform: pelisse shod with celestial blue cloth, white fur, silver braids and braids, and the cross of Saint-Louis. Black tie edged with white, white jabot, dolman waistcoat of scarlet cloth with straight collar lined with scarlet, silver buttons and braids, the front of the dolman waistcoat edged, on each side of the fastening, with a wide silver braid.

Erzherzog Johann31 Mar 2025 10:37 a.m. PST

Wow, thanks so much for this. So many different variations!!! So the old uniform was green dolman, sky blue pelisse, but it seems the 1809 version was green for both dolman and pelisse, but, reading Hollins etc, a lot of old uniforms still in use.

Thanks,
John

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