"Carneville Infantry in 1809 Uniform Query" Topic

I've seen two very different views on these troops.

One, link says they wore a uniform like the old light infantry – ie light (hechtgrau?) grey, with the helmet.

Others, including the Osprey, say grass green coats with black lapels, blue breeches, and a shako.

These are very different descriptions. I'm inclined to belief the latter. Any other opinions?

Cheers,
John

The green uniform with shako was certainly used for the Revolutionary War period 1793-1798; will need to dig out my books to check for 1809.

Thanks very much. I hadn't seen all those prints. The first is in the Osprey (299 David Hollins) but in black and white.This is what the Osprey says:

"They wore a modernised version of the 1790s uniform with
the new black shako featuring a rosette, black/yellow pompon and
plume. The 1798-pattern grass-green tunic retained the red collar, black
cuffs and lapels, yellow lace and buttons. The breeches were now blue,
either Jäger or Hungarian style, although the white waistcoat was still
worn. Black leatherwork was standard."

Enrico Acerbi's excellent work on the Austrian Army shows Carneville's Hussars in green, but he has no illustration for the Jaeger. Based on this I would be tempted to go with the green uniform.

Rawkins CD has:
"………..In 1805 the infantry of the re-raised legion appears to have worn re-issues of the original uniforms except that all companies were now wearing the shako and by 1809 the shakos had been replaced with the 1806 pattern as worn by the Grenz Regiments and the uniformrock was as for the line infantry, although possibly surplus 1798 issue coats, and grassgreen with red collar and black cuffs and turnbacks. There is some evidence to suggest that some of the older coats may still have been worn in 1809.

The infantry equipment appears to have followed the regular units, whitened leather belting and black leather pouch with the sabre carried on a waistbelt in 1792 and a shoulderbelt after 1801. The infantry companies were issued with older pattern muskets and the Jäger-Kompagnie with the shorter carbine, every third man receiving a rifle and was designated as a sharpshooter. The belting for all companies was changed to black leather sometime before 1809."

Note although the near contemporary colour illustration has red facing, others suggest it should be black.

Issue 72, page 42 of "Empires, Eagles & Lions" has an answer by Ray Johnson to a question:
"The infantry of the Carneville Freicorps wore a green coat with black facings and yellow buttons. The cavalry detachment (66 men) wore a white coat with red facings."

This is probably the picture used for the miniatures:

See exchange on the old "Napoleon Series Forum" at link

"On the recent Carneville Freikorps thread, this may help clarify the issue as TMP has got itself in a right muddle:

>>> As can be seen from the 1792 Schematis pics, mentioned by Steve Smith and Ian Brooks, the uniform is as I described in MAA299, except that the cuff facings on both the infantry and hussars are red, not black. The First Coalition unit also used line infantry standard white leatherwork.
Steve also mentions "Das Freikorps und das leichte Bataillon Carneville" Östreichische militärische Zeitschrift 1847-3 (H. 7-9), pp. 15-25, which covers the unit's history from 1792 to 1801, although without any uniform details. In summary, it says: Formed mostly from emigres, the infantry unit started with two companies of infantry and two of Jaeger, [different from the three companies usually listed – DAH] although the difference was probably only in the weaponry or military experience. In the First Coalition war, the infantry were often used on outpost duty and the like. In 1798, the remains of the Jaeger joined the Belgian Le Loup and German Plank Jaeger battalions, while the infantry were joined by part of the Limburg Volunteers (renamed the Erzherzog Karl Legion in 1794) plus what remained of the Luttich (Liege) Freikorps and Anhalt-Zerbst Freikorps to form 11th Light Infantry F. Carneville. The Hussars reinforced the Bussy Jaeger zu Pferd.

Much discussed on TMP, Gilles Boué's Essling depicts a Carneville Light Infantryman of the 1798-1801 period in a hechtgrau uniform with a helmet displaying just FII with facings of dark blue collar and cuffs. One version from a Schematic is at link although the facings are wrong. This unit was disbanded in 1801, but there is no 1809 Schematis, so I think Boue must just have guessed with the last illustrated unit.
I am not sure what the Anhalt-Zerbst unit uniform was, but earlier mercenary contingents fighting in the AWI certainly used red facings. The Limburg Volunteers/EKL originated in the Austrian Duchy of Limburg, which was next to the Prince-Bishopric of Liege/Luttich. Both wore roughly mid-blue uniforms (probably a mix of Austrian hechtgrau and captured 1790 Belgian rebel uniforms) faced in roughly mid-red. For reasons best known to themselves therefore, the Austrian authorities decreed that the new 11th Light Battalion would have the dark blue facings shown by Boue! While Seele is not the most reliable artist, his pictures of the Austrian troops in Germany in 1799-1800 (actually painted in 1803-4) do show an interesting figure in the background of an infantry plate. I could only find this slightly washed out version at

but the original shows the infantryman in the centre background in a dark green uniform with red facings and central panel plus the new helmet. It is unlikely that the Light Inf hechtgrau uniform was ever fully issued, but maybe the cuffs on the old uniforms were standardised? The picture at link may actually reflect an artistic confusion/standard cuffs as the light battalion was formed up, because the blue tunic is certainly from the Belgian volunteer units along with the Kaskett.

I was confused myself in MAA299 by the 1795 Schematis b/w line drawing, which shows a black panel, but the cuffs are not blacked in – and this may have confused others, including Wrede and Ottenfeld! However, we all predate the Internet.
The explanation would appear to be that either a Schematis artist in 1798 repainted the facings on an old Carneville infantry in dark blue, rendering it actually black, or there was some confusion with the standard black fur on the Hussar pelisse (regular Austrian hussars did not use cuff and collar facings). The old Carneville uniforms were reused in 1809, so they probably had red facings throughout with the standard Jaeger/Freikorps black leatherwork. As to deployment, they reverted to the usual outpost/bad terrain work. Near them at Essling is also a 72-strong Vienna Jaeger unit (not to be confused with the Vienna Volunteer battalions), which does not appear in the OBs, but which in the swampy ground south of the village.<<<

David"

Interesting. I hadn't seen the suggestion that the facings were all red.

Any miniatures for the early carneville infantry unit?

I went with the green. However it is because I am doing them for Blucher at Grand Scale, so a unit is 4,000 men, with 4 bases in the unit, one base is therefore 1,000ish. They take up something like 2/3 of a base! The green contrasts withe the rest of the 40x20mm base, who are Austrians in white.

The images provided by PoE are colorizes plates out of the Grouvel volume 2 – I just digitized this volume, too (and will publish as a download on Napoleon Online soon).

The Carneville chapter with detailed uniform description could be found here: PDF link

Greetings from Berlin
Markus Stein

Many thanks Markus,
Much appreciated and looking to seeing Volume 2. Wished I had bought the CDs when they were available.
Ian

OK, so here's what David Hollins said in Osprey 299:

They wore a modernised version of the 1790s uniform with
the new black shako featuring a rosette, black/yellow pompon and
plume. The 1798-pattern grass-green tunic retained the red collar, black
cuffs and lapels, yellow lace and buttons. The breeches were now blue,
either Jager or Hungarian style, although the white waistcoat was still
worn. Black leatherwork was standard.

All detailed descriptions and illustrations refer to the pre-1800 uniform. Having mused over this for a few days, I'm thinking the reference to the lapels on a "modernised version of the 1790s uniform suggests they aren't wearing a standard Austian coat, as the Light Infantry (hechtgrau) did, but a coat being green and closer in cut to a French infantry coat, with red facings, including lapels. (I think the black has been deemed an error of interpretation of a black and white image).