"Ukrainian Nazis" Topic

Reading this post, TMP link I was, as always, struck by someone blaming the Ukrainians for everything that's happened in the last three years because they have 'Nazis' in their army/country. According to this individual, the Russians HAD to invade Ukraine, assassinate it's leaders, annex it's lands, and commit mass atrocities, because the Ukrainians tolerated Nazis!

Well then, case closed. Or, is it.

These are my thoughts only and are meant to explain, to me at least, why Nazi imagery is tolerated in Ukraine. We'll ignore for right now, as that individual has for at least three years, the Nazi imagery in the Russian forces currently operating in Ukraine, Africa, and Syria. Oh, wait, not Syria any longer.

So, in no particular order:
1. Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire from the 18th century until 1918. It had a brief revival as an independent country until 1922 when conquered by the Soviets. The Soviets were horrific repressing Ukrainian culture, church, and traditions, seizing land, causing famine, sending her people to Siberia, etc., until the Germans showed up in 1941.

2. Sooooo, to a certain extent it makes sense that the Ukrainians look at the occupation by the Nazis as a sort of Golden Age because they were a 'free' country for a few years. So a fascination with Nazis might make sense to a certain extent. Don't forget, Ukrainian partisans kept fighting the Soviets until the 1950s and when the Soviets returned to Ukraine the reprisals were horrific.

3. I grew up at the height of the Cold War. Back then we downplayed the Nazi atrocities as we needed the Germans to face off against the much greater threat that was the Soviet Union. Since the Cold War in Eastern Europe was still going on until three years ago when the neo-Soviets invaded, I can see why the Ukrainian government chose to downplay the Nazi evil. They needed those who were pro-Nazi in case the Russians invaded….which they did.

4. essentially, by being so belligerent and intent on forcing their will on their neighbors, Putin created the Nazi bugaboo because the Ukrainians couldn't afford to get rid of them.

Just some thoughts.

All good reasoning. I have read l one of Hitler's biggest mistakes in the east was not treating the Ukrainians like liberated allies.

Totally agree…

Armand

One thing that commonly gets forgotten is that the Nazi party had no firm fixed principle or guiding policy that could not be reversed 180 degrees at any time or place by Adolf Hitler: it was his party, pure and simple, and its program and preferences were his, and were subject to change at any time. Where he was consistent, they were consistent; when, as he frequently was, he was inconsistent, they would change whenever he decided to change them. Nazi party speakers were proud to say "our program is Adolf Hitler." This explains why everything fell apart the moment he died, and has never been resurrected, although cranks of various types have tried.

People since then have tried to claim the title, never successfully. I suspect the presence of "Nazis" in Ukraine is nothing more or less than people trying to pick the most anti-Russian symbol they can find to wave in the air- and that's it. It's probably not helping them, but it is certainly making their opposition to the Russians clear. Regardless, that does not make them "Nazis" in the sense that the term was meant.

As for the differences between the Soviets and the Nazis, well, I've always considered von Ribbentrop's statement that hanging out with the Politburo was like "being around old party comrades" to express the lack of difference in the type of man at the top of the two parties rather clearly.

There are Nazis in Mongolia. There are Nazis in every European county and the US, Canada, and most other places.

In time of war you take whatever help you can get, no matter who it may be.

Stalin the communist mass murderer from the Soviet Union will help us fight the Nazis? Okay.

Given that the President of Ukraine is Jewish, the threat of Ukrainian Nazis may be overstated.

Mike

I find it funny when Russia roared into Hungary to end the Hungarian Revolution the Russians said they did it because Nazis had taken over the Hungarian government. Fast forward some 70 yrs and lo and behold Putin says the same thing about invading Ukraine. Hmmm…

Also, I really don't give a flying fig if some people in Ukraine flag Nazi flags or are even neo-nazis themselves. It is their country. They can decide for themselves what to do about that. I am pretty sure we can find some people here in the US that fly Nazi flags and are neo-nazis. Not that long ago here in Milwaukee a local German group, quietly celebrated Hitler's birthday. I guess we should be invaded by China and they would now have the perfect right to do so.

Wow. If one human being in the history of the world has been thoroughly debunked and exploded, you would think it would be Adolf Hitler. Even historians like David Irving, who try to justify him, wind up explaining exactly how it was he took one of the most advanced nations in the world and turned it into flaming wreckage in just twelve short years. I admit that Hitler's interest in aestheticized politics gave it a kind of pornographic appeal (which you can see in the way some gamers just love the SA), but still; it's hard to believe everyone can't see that the guy was a walking disaster area.

Dn Jackson – have you collected all the lies yet or not?

1. Russia negotiated with Ukraine for eight years to stop persecuting Russians on its territory and create national autonomies for them. Ukrainian nationalists, with the open support of the West, overthrew the legally elected president, who was supported by Russian-speaking regions. Thus – violating fundamental human rights. Immediately after the Nazis seized power, they suppressed peaceful protests in the most brutal way, simply killing dissenters. The most striking example is the burning of protesters in Odessa on May 9, 2014. Then people were forced to take up arms to defend their rights and freedoms. Naturally, Russia could not remain on the sidelines.

link

This is how it ended:

link

Which Ukrainian leaders were killed by the Russians? Name them.

2. Show me examples of the use of Nazi symbols by Russian troops. Photos, please.

3. Ukraine became part of the Russian Empire at the request of the Ukrainian Cossack Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky in 1654. Before that, it had never been an independent state, but was part of the territories controlled by Poland.
The problem with the "conquest by the Soviets" is that the conquest was carried out by the Ukrainian Red Army. This is not a conquest – it is a civil war, in which the Ukrainian Bolsheviks won in Ukraine.
The Soviets, on the contrary, carried out indigenization in the country – that is, even the Russian population of the national republics was obliged to learn the language of the local peoples, teaching in schools and office work began to be conducted in local languages. Books by national writers were published in native languages ​​in millions of copies. They tried to create the leadership of the national republics from officials of local nationality. All this fully applied to Ukraine. This is what the suppression of Ukrainian identity by the Soviets looked like:

link

Ukrainian nationalists initially viewed the Nazis as those who could grant them independence. But they quickly became convinced that the Nazis were not going to create any "free Ukraine". But, nevertheless, they preferred to put up with them, since the USSR policy was a great danger for Ukrainian nationalism, since it was shared by the majority of the Ukrainian population.

link

link

3. You are good at justifying Nazism. And the creation of, in fact, SS field units in Ukraine. The problem is that the main "strike force" on the Maidan in 2014 were also Nazis, and among the three leaders of the "revolution" was Tyahnybok – an outspoken Nazi.

"This explains why everything fell apart the moment he died"

hmmm.It might have had something to do with the Soviets entering Berlin & the British & Americans had crossed the Rhine, do you think?

" it's hard to believe everyone can't see that the guy was a walking disaster area."

hmmm. Even in modern times "guys" get elected despite their obvious potential for disaster. I have one in mind.

Justin Trudeau?

I met a Ukranian lady from Odessa who told me that Ukraines responsibility for this war is 60% cause Russian people were no longer allowed to speak their russian language in the Donbas etc.
There are surely Nazis in Ukraine.

But that is no reason to threaten the existence of a state. Period.
The duma made a law that Russia has the right to protect all russians where ever they are. That is the recipe for invasion to all former parts of the sovjet union.

Russia could have used european institutions to help russian people in Ukraine. But if you tell me that Putin is interested in the well being of the common russian citizen I have to start laughing

But unlike almost every other country in Europe, the Nazis produced no organized resistance movement- the answer is probably that the cause and the program were wrapped up in a dead man.

dogtail, Putin will threaten neighboring countries if they start killing people there because they are Russian… But so far this has only happened in Ukraine.

A resistance movement can only exist with significant support from the population, or with significant support from abroad. War costs a lot of money and resources. There was no Nazi resistance simply because there was no one to support it. The Germans were exhausted and cruelly disappointed with the ideas of Nazism. It is extremely difficult to imagine a country investing significant funds in the Nazis at that time… They showed themselves to be completely bankrupt.

"I met a Ukranian lady from Odessa …"

She was Ukrainian like our Cuprum here.
Russian language is still allowed even today and even in West Ukraine.
Even more so, the Russian language was not hindered in the time before the Russian aggression, when the country was ruled by Russian collaborators.
However, in the territory of Ukraine occupied by the Russians now, the Ukrainian language is completely blocked.

What nonsense?

link

Russian textbook of Ukrainian language for senior classes (10-11 grades):

You can buy it on a popular marketplace:

link

Here is an article discussing that in Crimea there are only two hundred children who want to study Ukrainian. It is difficult to fill Ukrainian language classes:

link

Ban on Russian language in Ukraine:

link

What is your point?
There are lot of textbooks about Russian language for Ukrainian schools.
All available. So no ban on Russian language in Ukraine by your own criteria.

prom.ua/p2355668612-russkij-yazyk-klass.html

I often wonder if the Ukranians will look back at this war as their Great Patriotic War…

"Which Ukrainian leaders were killed by the Russians? Name them."

Alexei Navalny

"Show me examples of the use of Nazi symbols by Russian troops."

Others have shown them to you repeatedly over the last three years. It's rampant in what was Wagner.

"…the conquest was carried out by the Ukrainian Red Army."

Which ignores the fact that the 'Ukrainian' Red Army was Ukrainian in name only as it consisted almost exclusively of Russians and conscripted Ukrainians. Funny how motivated troops can be when the commissars are behind you with a pistol to your head.

"You are good at justifying Nazism."

Hardly, I can't stand socialism in any form. You simply find nazis under every Ukrainian bed.

"Putin will threaten neighboring countries if they start killing people there because they are Russian… But so far this has only happened in Ukraine."

Seems to happen a lot in Russia.

"Here is an article discussing that in Crimea there are only two hundred children who want to study Ukrainian. It is difficult to fill Ukrainian language classes:"

Why would Ukrainian children need lessons in how to speak Ukrainian? Perhaps there's more to the suppression of the Ukrainian culture than you realize Cuprum.

Cuprum, why are there Russian troops in Moldavia ?

Wait … wait … there are still enough Nazis in Ukraine to use as an excuse to keep killing ?

From Wiki:

On 27 June 2016, a new law entered in force in Transnistria, punishing actions or public statements, including through the usage of mass media, networks of information and telecommunications or internet criticizing the so-called peacekeeping mission of the Russian Army in Transnistria, or presenting interpretations perceived to be "false" by the Transnistrian government of the Russian Army's military mission.

That's a very Nazi law. Or is it Communist? It's hard to tell the difference between the two.

Does the law mean that Moldava full of Nazis too, Cuprum? Perhaps Romania is? The Baltic States? Poland? Finland? Hungary? Czechia? (Though I should think the Nazis in Hungary and Czechia were wiped out in 1956 and 1968?)

Sho Boki, open the last link of my message. Are New Zealanders lying?

Dn Jackson, Navalny? And when did he manage to become a Ukrainian citizen?
Nobody has ever shown a single photo of Russian troops using Nazi symbols.
There were no Ukrainian communists? Another stupid statement… There was even a Polish communist division, consisting of Polish communists and fighting against their compatriots. The Bolsheviks did not care about nationality, and their ideas were extremely popular.

link

link

The commissars controlled former tsarist officers who held command positions. You can't assign a commissar to every soldier. They will simply shoot him if they want. During the Russian civil war, entire divisions sometimes went over to the enemy's side. This is a stupid, idiotic myth of Western propaganda.
There are a few percent of Nazis in Ukraine. But the Ukrainian government uses them as a means of pressure on dissenters.
In Russia, no one is killed based on nationality. You are simply lying. As usual. Give facts. Why can't people like you ever back up your words with facts?

As for the language, the reason is simple – those who live in Crimea, Donetsk, Lugansk regions do not consider themselves Ukrainians. And after national oppression, they do not want to have anything to do with Ukraine.

Dagwood, just open Wikipedia. Since the last Cold War, there have been gigantic military warehouses on the territory of Transnistria. In the 90s, when the interethnic conflict between Moldavian nationalists and the population of Transnistria began, all parties to the conflict attempted to seize these weapons. The Russian army took control of these warehouses and did not allow these weapons to be used in the war. There are very few Russian troops there – these are security battalions at the warehouses, and the only Russian officers there are Russian. The soldiers are recruited from the local population under contract. Why, in general, are they not much bothered by various sanctions – they are local residents.

link

link

link

link

Ukrainian Nazis tease… Moldovans in 1992. While fighting on the same side with the Russians. There are no Nazis in Ukraine)))

For some reason I am sure that if these military warehouses come under NATO control, then tomorrow all these military supplies will end up in Ukraine)))

Legion 4, Ukraine still has a government that is forming its own troops from Nazis. More than enough reason to continue the war.

Dal Gavan, what surprises you? There is an information war going on. The West also imposes bans and punishments for alternative points of view:
link

Ukrainian Nazis tease

Are they nazis or just idiots trying to shock the photographer? Germans also invented the goose-step march, and it became a hallmark of the Nazi rallies. Russian troops use the goose-step on parades. Does that mean they're all nazis too?

Dal Gavan, what surprises you? There is an information war going on.

Yes, mate. But those restrictions are some of the harshest I've seen. Thanks for the link, too. The Russian report is a inaccurate in several areas:

3ZZZ is a multi-cultural local radio station and was responding to complaints from listeners, so it wasn't a government-initiated block and you can read the full story here- link . The "constitution" is their radio company charter, not the national constitution.

RT broadcasting suspended (February 26, 2022)

Referred to the coverage of the special operation in Ukraine prohibited broadcasting RT in the country (24 March 2022

No, again the suspension was not by the government, it was a (rather stupid) commercial decision. Foxtel, the carrier, made the decision to stop carrying the RT broadcasts (no surprise there, as foxtel is part of Murdoch's media empire). Read about it here, on RT's own website- link

Sanctions against Russian politicians, businessmen, media VIP, etc, are rather pointless, virtue-signalling moves by governments that don't know what they are doing- so nothing unique about Australia imposing sanctions.

Simeon Boikov, known by his online moniker Aussie Cossack, is another matter (and one not mentioned in the link you posted). If it's true that he was trying to incite Russian-Australians to violence then he should be tried (and it may have been Russian-Australians who reported him). However, if that's just an excuse to shut him up then the government needs a good kick in the goolies. And he should fight the accusation in court, not hide in the Russian consulate. Who does he think he is- Julian Assange? link

(sorry about using a Murdoch site, but the others were pay to view)

If you had looked at the links I provided, you wouldn't have asked whether these UNA-UNSO militants are just idiots trying to shock a photographer.
Here's another one – directly about the organization they represent:

link

The problem is that similar actions by the Russian authorities are also meaningless and ostentatious actions, which only indicate that they don't know how to conduct propaganda and counter-propaganda))) I still remember from Soviet times that everything that is prohibited definitely arouses increased interest))) Well, at least they taught a huge part of Russians to use VPN, banning TikTok and slowing down YouTube)))

I looked at the link you put there for me to look at, Cuprum. There's extremist idiots in every country, so I don't doubt that Ukraine has some, and I assumed that the other links would provide examples.

The Russians do know how to use propaganda, and you have admitted that in previous topics, mate, remember? The link you provided shows them doing just that. The report infers that the Australian government was blocking 3ZZZ and RT, when in fact they were commercial decisions made by the organisations (in Foxtel's case there's be a fair share of political influence in the decision, too).

But back to my original point- if the Transnistrian separatists are happy with the Russian occupation forces why are such harsh restrictions of free speech necessary? Or have their Russian "protectors" become so burdensome that Transnistrian separatists would rather be part of Moldava than be another Russian-occupied outpost?

Dal Gavan, you are distorting the truth. There are idiot extremists – that's one thing, and there are legal extremist organizations supported and used by the state – that's something completely different. Now these are full-fledged combat state formations that were created long before the start of this war. Ukrainian ultra-nationalists were supported by the state even during the time of Yanukovych, as a force for a political game against Russia. And even more so, no one has ever banned their activities in Ukraine.

What dictated such "commercial decisions"? Let's remember the campaign to ban Western business in Russia. Officially, no one banned anyone from doing business in Russia, but with the support of the central (and, as it turns out, government-controlled media) media, enormous pressure was exerted. Isn't this what Zuckerberg was talking about? And now, as soon as Trump condemned the "sexual diversity" movement, suddenly all commercial companies, as if on command, refused to promote this agenda. I wonder – what is the reason? I think commercial companies are forced to follow the mainstream simply because doing otherwise would create serious business problems for them. Your argument is completely unconvincing.

Are you aware that the "pro-Russian" party "Shor" has been banned from participating in elections in Moldova? Maybe the Moldovan authorities are afraid that in case of fair elections ALL of Moldova will fall under Russian influence? And of course, this is a party of corrupt officials and Russian puppets. Like Trump recently)))

link

Here are interesting recent elections in Moldova. All pro-Russian forces are blocked and discredited. The FOREIGN diaspora has a decisive influence on the elections, but hundreds of thousands of Moldovan citizens living in Russia were deprived of the right to vote. Fair elections?

link

There is a good chance that Moldova will soon join Transnistria)))
Well, that is if democracy suddenly starts working again in the West)))

And we can also recall Georgia (not long ago at war with Russia), which suddenly decided to pursue an independent policy. And it was immediately subjected to great pressure from the West. If the West has grabbed someone by the throat, then it is extremely reluctant to let its victim go)))
Note that there are no Russian military personnel in Georgia.

The truth I see is that the occupation of crimea was the first major change of territories in Europe since I was born. And the attack on ukraine is the first try to extinguish a country since Prussia disappeared.
It really doesn´t matter what happened in 1654 or whenever. It even does not matter what happened at the majdan. Russia has no right to interfere in Ukraine.

The most striking example is the burning of protesters in Odessa on May 9, 2014. Then people were forced to take up arms to defend their rights and freedoms. Naturally, Russia could not remain on the sidelines.

I still believe that "Russia" and "Freedom" does not fit in one sentence. And I also think that the full-fledged invasion of Ukraine has nothing to do with Nazis, laws against the Use of Russian language or fear of having NATO on the russian border. A flourishing democratic Ukraine is a danger to the russian oligarchie with its mismanagement of national resources. And Putins desire to rebuilt the sovjet union has made him start the War.

For some reason it seemed to me that the first major change in borders was the unification of Germany. Then the collapse of the USSR. After that – the destruction of Yugoslavia and the separation of Kosovo from Serbia by armed force with the direct military participation of NATO.
NATO's advance to the East was a monstrous change in the balance of power in Europe.
Regarding interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine – it is especially funny. After the ambassadors and politicians of Western countries openly supported the unrest against the legitimate government on Maidan))) Being there in person! Having previously invested five billion dollars to remove Ukraine from Russian influence.

Russia is guilty only because it is Russia and it has its own interests that do not coincide with the interests of the world hegemon and its vassals)))

Yeah, nobody likes Russia. Exept Serbians. I do not wonder why.
Germany was reunified. The Sovjet Union was dissolved, just like Yugoslavia.
Serbia after the siege of Sarajevo and the awful massacres was not trustworthy, so who is to blame?

NATO did not advance east, a lot of countries joined NATO cause: Nobody likes Russia.
And I still don´t wonder why.
Ukraine gave away its nuclear weapons and did not join the NATO, and now the people of Ukraine have to pay a high price for it.
So the only thing to learn from the whole affair is: better join NATO and get nukes (again)

That is, when the revision of borders is done in the interests of the West – is it normal and legal? Why wouldn't the Albanians from Kosovo return to Albania if they didn't want to live with the Serbs? This is a mirror image of the Russians in Donbass))) But there NATO had the right to protect the separatists, and the Russians do not have that right. Simply because they are Russians. They have no rights)))

Yes, Russia wanted to join NATO. But they refused, because then NATO would lose its meaning)))

From the news of freedom of speech in the West: Wikipedia removed the article about the massacre committed by Ukrainians in the Kursk village of Russkoye Porechnoye. Freedom of speech is a selective concept)))

the preamble of the NATO treaty includes:"…They are determined to safeguard the freedom, common heritage and civilisation of their peoples, founded on the principles of democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law…"

Sorry, that does not fit with Russia.

Yeah, NATO protected the separatists of Kosovo from ethnic cleansing. There was no ethnic cleansing in Donbass.

About the Kursk village of Russkoye Porechnoye: when independent sources verifie those claims, there will be an article about it. Until then it might be propaganda.

How did NATO protect its people in the territories of Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya? These countries attacked NATO? Stupidity…

Eight years of shelling cities with artillery – is this not ethnic cleansing? You have a very peculiar view of things… By the way, the Albanians also engaged in ethnic cleansing – they destroyed more than 1,000 Serbs and other non-Muslims. But these ethnic cleansings were correct because they were carried out under the control of NATO?

Yes, of course. Russian propaganda… What other sources should confirm this, if Western journalists and other representatives are absent from the Russian side of the front? They are very interested in objectivity)))

link

Nobody said that those countries attacked NATO, only 9/11 was an attack on a member. So you are using a strawman fallacy.

No ethnic cleansing is correct, as they are against the law. (see NATO preamble). Did NATO stated something otherwise?

I can´t blame anybody for being absent from the Russian side. Russia ranks on place 164 of 180 in the Press freedom index.

Dogtail,

Well that just shows that the Press Freedom Index is run by Nazis! Right Cuprum?

Dal Gavan, you are distorting the truth. There are idiot extremists – that's one thing, and there are legal extremist organizations supported and used by the state – that's something completely different.

Not deliberately, and I don't claim to be absolutely correct. I'm giving somewhat-informed opinion, mate. But I think you are being deliberately misleading, if the article you linked to is correct:

Although the Ukrainian National Assembly (Ukrainian: УНА, UNA) was the organisation's political wing, on 22 May 2014 it merged with Right Sector;[1] the UNSO continues to operate independently.

To me that means that while the neo-nazi crazies have a link to a party, and sometimes act in concert with it, they're not in any way the armed wing of that party/government- as you infer. So they're more like the relationship between unions and left wing parties (usually) around the world- at best a rent-a-crowd for demonstrations, at worst thugs intent on intimidating voters/officials/companies through threats or major damage to opponents/bystanders/police/government buildings, etc.

Well, that is if democracy suddenly starts working again in the West

Has it ever, even in Herodotus' Athens?

Most, if not all, the "democracies" are really two-faction oligarchies, where the factions (here the ALP/Greens/Teals versus the Coalition) compete in parliament to implement their party leaderships' instructions. Despite what the lying flocks would have us believe.

But at least there's a thin veneer of democracy, unlike Russia under Putin- a return to the grand old days of absolutist dictatorship in which Stalin and Pyotr Alekseyevich Romanov would be happy to rule. At least in the "democracies" they usually only try to destroy their political opponents in a political sense- they (usually) don't have them killed and rarely imprison them.

Cuprum, I don't see the "West" as a model of how to live. It's too corrupt, power and wealth is too concentrated in political parties, and most national constitutions are subverted- deliberately- by the people elected to uphold them. (Just as in Russia and the PRC, I think.) But it's better than most of the alternatives. Now if electoral conscription was ever introduced (it won't be while the parties rule the electorates) then we may approach the democratic ideals most nations claim to follow, but don't.

"…how it was he took one of the most advanced nations in the world and turned it into flaming wreckage in just twelve short years."

It won't take 12 years for the same thing to happen here.

Ukraine still has a government that is forming its own troops from Nazis. More than enough reason to continue the war.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" … The Western
Allies during WWII became allied with Stalin's Communist Russia. They all had similar interests. Defeating Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. But it didn't take too long before "The Iron Curtain" was raised and stayed there for about 45 years.

Yeah, nobody likes Russia. Exept Serbians. I do not wonder why.
Germany was reunified. The Sovjet Union was dissolved, just like Yugoslavia.
Serbia after the siege of Sarajevo and the awful massacres was not trustworthy, so who is to blame?

NATO did not advance east, a lot of countries joined NATO cause: Nobody likes Russia.
And I still don´t wonder why.
Ukraine gave away its nuclear weapons and did not join the NATO, and now the people of Ukraine have to pay a high price for it.
So the only thing to learn from the whole affair is: better join NATO and get nukes (again)

Spot on !