"You prefer probabilistic spotting!" Topic

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Do you prefer probabilistic spotting rules where you roll dice or some other random generator to spot units within a defined range band, or a deterministic system where you spot infantry in cover at up to xx range and beyond that range they remain unspotted? Do you think the extra "realism"/fog of war/uncertainty of the probabilistic model is worth the extra complexity?

47% said "prefer probabilistic spotting rules"
32% said "prefer deterministic spotting rules"

Would change depending on the game.

It has never come up in any game I have ever played. 🤷

I think it depends on the game and situation. We use both options. At 10m we always spot. Personal experience is that its a bit too far in difficult circumstances. Other circumstances its impossible to spot as probabilistic spotting has some serious flaws if not enacted with too many rules to make it worthwhile.

Probabilistic is a quick and dirty option to use time up simply and make the game plausible. a Player can spot into a section of terrain that may or may not contain an element. How long does he stay to make sure? Not perfect but better than nothing.

Not sure why probabilistic adds extra complexity? We just mark terrain holding a unit prior to gameplay by placing small piece of paper under that terrain piece and then use probabilistic range bands to reveal all units in that band during gameplay.

I prefer probabilistic with some deterministic edges. Like UshCha says, at some point spotting should be automatic. But I like it better if it is largely probabilistic.

However I don't like TOO many factors or too much complexity in the probabilities. It has to be reasonably quick to do, without going to tables of 40 different factors to add or subtract from a running total that only a computer can keep track of.

I also feel very strongly that hidden units should be at the core of the spotting process (and the game). I like my wargames to inject the commander's biggest challenge into my games -- that being having to make decisions based on imperfect information on the enemy's forces. I don't want any God's eye view of the battle. Neither side should automatically know what forces they are facing, nor how they are deployed (and not deployed).

Combining hidden units with probabilistic spotting makes for an entirely different game experience, with uncertainty and anxiety consuming players who don't invest in recon, overwatch, and reserves.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Once again it appears I'm the odd man out.

Spotting is basically about Situational Awareness. A crew will be better than an individual because there are more eyes. Better crews will be quicker and more observant too.

I look at spotting as if it can be seen it will. It's just a matter of how long a time more than it is a chance.

Your Situational Awareness is going to be best in the direction your gun is pointing (overwatch) or you are moving. In a tank, the main factors are whether you are buttoned up and if the gunner has a roof periscope (generally a 45-60 degree view with a 1x-3x magnification). Without a roof periscope his gunsight has a 10-20 degree field of view.

Almost all Allied tanks had roof periscopes, the Germans did not.

Of course, there are many other factors.

In my system, when reacting or attempting to spot a threat I use the above play aid.

All units can pause the game to react with a Situational Awareness Check to new LOS from movement, halting, turret traverse, pivoting, turning, and shooting not in their Blind Spot or under an Engagement Delay.

A result > 0 means it will take that many turns/seconds before you notice the threat to go into action. If <= 0 you notice the threat immediately and can issue a move or shoot order.

Concealed units: Spotted at <= 200m, pivoted, moved or fired.

Non-open top vehicles that are engaged and shooting at a target you are blind (no reaction) in their rear 180-degree arc unless you get a radio warning.

If you get flanked and you are buttoned up you expect on average a 9 second delay. This should give your opponent enough time to shoot before you even know he is there.

Some is this is guess work and some is based on historical research. I've been using it successfully for over 5 years.

Wolfhag

One of the issues we had in the early days was that every body tried to spot a hidden uint si inevitably it ws spotted quickly, This made driveing along a road and not spotting hidden enemy near imimmpossibl.

What we do not get right as its hard, is how long you need to whatch an area to get an Idea whats there. 1 day 2 days, several hours?

UshCha,
You bring up a good point.

If a small unit small or man does not want to be detected you won't see them even if are right next to them until they open fire.

This is from a US military manual:

It's not valid for all situations but it's a good point of reference.

Wolfhg