"Chatoyant Confederate uniforms." Topic

Hello everyone,

As I understand now, at the beginning of the ACW, there were chatoyant uniforms (not shimmering) like those of the Zouaves of the Yankee army, which did not disappear during the war as I was told on here :
TMP link
but which were worn until the end of the war as I was told on here :
TMP link

I completely forgot to be interested in the Confederate regiments which also had regiments with chatoyant uniforms…

Now I don't know anything about it but I suppose that the Confederates also had Zouave regiments with more or less Zouave uniforms and that these Zouave regiments must have been very different from each other.

Also before doing uniform research – regiment by regiment – for example for Gettysburg (unless there is a website for that) we would have to know all the regiments that wore them!

At Gettysburg for example, apart from those of the Confederate Zouaves,we would also need to know which Confederate regiments had chatoyant uniforms?

Because there may have been Confederate regiments in chatoyant uniforms of a different type than those of the Zouaves?

As you can see, I am still in the ACW, but now my dear MiniFigs 25 mm 'S' range which interest me much more, since they are rare or very rare which does not prevent me from having more and more of them.

To be honest I'm not aware of any uniform ever to feature a changeable lustre or colour with an undulating narrow band of white light.

There are only three Confederate units that would be close to a Zouave uniform.

Wheat's Louisiana Tigers. The 2nd Louisiana Battalion. Also known as the 1st Special Battalion. They were disbanded after the battle of Gaines Mill. I'm sure their uniforms didn't last long after that.

Coppen's Zouaves. There were two battalions, one in the East and one in the West.

1st Louisiana Zouave Battalion. Served in Virginia. Fought and decimated during 1862. Only had 12 men left after Antietam. I doubt they maintained any special uniform after that battle.

2nd Louisiana Zouave Battalion served in the west. There were only 2 companies in the battalion. Mostly stationed at Vicksburg, they fought at Corinth in Oct 1862, then were attached to Waul's Texas Legion for the siege of Vicksburg. Its doubtful they wore any special uniform after that. The battalion was reformed in late 1863, but disbanded in January 1864.

I concur with Cleburne 1863.

I am learning something new here because I never heard of any uniforms being referred to as chatoyant or even shimmering as you asked in a prior post. Now I am use to someone asking what color a particular Zouave unit was wearing or like the color a US sharpshooters unit was wearing at a particular time in the war but not using the terms you are using.

I am wondering if flamboyant is the term that we would use in America?

In 1861 most of the companies were uniformed by their Captain or Colonel. Honorary ranks given by the town, county or State of origin. They paid for the uniform for the men until State began to cover the costs.
These militia uniforms could be as the purchaser wanted. And in some cases blue not gray.
A colored businessman in Nashville was noted for outfitting a battery of artillery. This included uniforms, guns and limbers.
As stores built up at supply points, the uniforms stored were all standard in color. As late as 1864 the supply camps at Talladega were full of uniforms. There were at least seven different camps in Talladega including muster, hospital, rehabilitation to send to units. These were often the target of Union raiders from the Blue Mountain (Anniston) area.you can track the number because of troop assignment, recorded in pension records. One rehabilitation example is a wounded lieutenant in an infantry unit. He provided his own horse and joined a cavalry unit as a private.

Yes, I think flamboyant is the best translation.

@bobm1959
Me neither.

@Cleburne1863
Bravo champ! And here is what I found on my side for the Confederate 'zouaves':

1/The "Maryland Guard Zouaves".

2/The Maryland's Zouaves".

3/The 2nd Maryland Infantry.

4/The Wheat's Tigers of Louisiane.

5/The "Louisiana Zouaves" called "Pelicans" after their national emblem stamped on the belt buckle.

6/ The "Louisiana Tiger Zouaves".

7/ The Salem Zouaves of Virginia.

8/ The "McClellan's Zouaves".

9/The "Charleston Zouaves Cadets".

and

10/ The Chichester Zouave Cadets".

These last three corps were Zouaves only in name and I do not know their history.

They proudly displayed the emblem of South Carolina, the palmetto, on their caps and on the plate of their cartridge pouch banners, or even on their belt plates.

Now when a word from the very, very old French language is untranslatable into English, I leave it in French.

@Shagnasty
You're right.

@Disco Joe
You see, you learn something new every day.

Now when a word from the very, very old French language is untranslatable into English, I leave it in French.

@TimePortal
I also wonder if flamboyant is the term you would use in America?

Flamboyant, this term would rather be used for example to describe beautiful red hair, which would shine with the brilliance of fire.

It is also a species of tree…

Now most have understood very well what we were talking about and chatoyant is the best French word to describe the uniforms of the French army between 1830 and 1914.

@hi EEE ya, so then based on what you are saying this is the best French word used to describe the uniforms of the French army between 1830 and 1914 and are using it to describe the Confederate army during the ACW. Not a term or word that I would have used but as they say to each there own but you might want to use words that most people would know and that is just a suggestion.

Most of those you have mentioned are either alternate names for the three I've mentioned, or single early companies whose uniforms probably didn't last in the field past 1861.s

See post under Yankee troops, my post about the Time-Life Illustrated History of the Civil War. There was a volume on the Confederate Arms and Equipment with a section on uniforms. Illustrations are photos of actual uniforms from museums. Only one Zouave uniform top was shown.
I found the uniform of matching coats and pants in white maybe bleached base fabric with mid brown vertical thin stripes in both. The kept was dark brown.

@Disco Joe
Yes it is the best French word used to describe the uniforms of the French army between 1830 and 1914.

But where did I write "and they use it to describe the Confederate army during the ACW"?

Chatoyant is not a term or a word that you would have used,logical because nothing corresponds to it in English …

Now all things considered, I have the impression that there were never any chatoyant uniforms in the Confederate army…

@Cleburne1863
Oh really?

Alors je ne suis pas sortis de l'auberge…

@TimePortal
Thanks for the info but now I'm drowning in books nevertheless please but me a link …

@hi EEE ya, so the fact that the name of this article and I quote "Chatoyant Confederate uniforms" and in your first post you state and I quote "I completely forgot to be interested in the Confederate regiments which also had regiments with chatoyant uniforms " has nothing to do with the fact that you actually used that term to describe some Confederate regiments or am I missing something here?

@Disco Joe
No, it's because when I wrote this on 04 Aug 2024 11:49 p.m. PST, I didn't know the rebels didn't have chatoyant uniforms.

@hi EEE ya, then maybe you should use terms that everyone is familiar with instead of ones that only a select few are familiar with or that we need to ask for you to explain what you mean.

Now most have understood very well what we were talking about and chatoyant is the best French word to describe the uniforms of the French army between 1830 and 1914.

Yes it is the best French word used to describe the uniforms of the French army between 1830 and 1914.

there is rather a misunderstanding than anything else
'chatoyant' it is not the really the appropriate word to describe French Army's uniformology of that time thanks to God

To be honest I'm not aware of any uniform ever to feature a changeable lustre or colour with an undulating narrow band of white light.

exactly totally agree

'chatoyant' clothing you have that for the people at Mardi Gras, Carnival of Venice, John Travolta and Disco period in the nightlife Clubs

military 'chatoyant' uniforms?…colourfull Hussars-style uniforms, maybe the Swiss Pontifical Guard, some regimental Bands and Drums Majors with a great proportion of golden laces etc

Zouave style uniform : oriental, exotic, not at all especially 'chatoyant'

Flamboyant, this term would rather be used for example to describe beautiful red hair, which would shine with the brilliance of fire.

…precisely it is juste the opposite, the word flamboyant would be more used to describe a style in military uniformology or a specific uniform than chatoyant, beautiful red uniforms and extended to all uniforms with a particular brilliance, the ceremonial clothing of the Swiss Guard can be said as both flamboyant and chatoyant

@Disco Joe
That's what I do almost all the time because my English is rudimentary, but as I told you some French words are untranslatable in English.

@Lilian
Absolutely disagree with you but it doesn't matter…

It's the best French word used to describe the uniforms of the French army as a whole between 1830 and 1914 because they weren't flamboyant.

The regiments of turcos, Senegalese tirailleurs (formed in 1857), spahis and zouaves of Napoleon III's army certainly also have exotic uniforms which didn't prevent them from being chatoyant.

There is definitely a misunderstanding, would you have preferred "colourfull-style uniforms"?

This didn't seem precise enough to me because many other armies had "colorfull style uniforms"…

Another thing flamboyant is not chatoyant…

But in any case there were no chatoyant uniforms among the rebels.

In English "colorful-style uniforms" and flamboyant mean just about the same thing.

Flamboyant- marked by or given to strikingly elaborate or colorful display or behavior.

If a Zouave uniform isn't a "colorful display" I don't know what is.

@Cleburne1863
The Zouaves turcos, Senegalese tirailleurs (formed in 1857) and spahis of Napoleon III's army have exotic uniforms which didn't prevent them from being chatoyant.

@Lilian
Absolutely disagree with you but it doesn't matter…

It's the best French word used to describe the uniforms of the French army as a whole between 1830 and 1914 because they weren't flamboyant.

it is certainly not the best word because it would not be so used as you thought by the french-speaking people to describe their own uniformolgy CQFD QED

the French Army between "1830 and 1914" can hardly depicted as "chatoyante" and especially after 1871 if not as quite sober and even boring concerning the colours :

taken as a whole the ugly post 1870 German Army prior to the feldgrau is certainly more 'chatoyante' than the French Army :
white Cuirassiers
with red Garde du Corps and Guard Cuirassiers
dark blue Infantry and Uhlans
sky blue Bavarian Army and Dragoons
dark or light green foot and mounted Jägers, Schützen, Machine-gun units, Bavarian Chevaulegers, Saxon Artillery and Fusiliers-Regiment nr 108
Hussars still a festival of colours in Germany from black, red, brown, green, blue

in comparison French Dragoons and mounted Chasseurs renounced to their traditionnal green, there were no longer green uniforms in the whole French Army except for the Foresters Chasseurs and Customs Battalions (until 1903) joining the military ranks only in wartime, not to mention the colourfull Hussars leaving their white brown gris argentin red black specific pelisses or dolmans for a poor standardised light blue of the light cavalry with Chasseurs,
no more Imperial Guard with the prestigious Carabiniers or Grenadiers disbanbed as well as the white Lancers and the rest of the Lancers

in the French Army, remained only at best shades of blue, from light, bluish iron-gray to dark blue, the French Army offered only a blue monochromatism or blue and red bichromatism, all that is not really very 'chatoyant'

I do like the term exotic to describe the uniforms. Exotic in order to spur enlistment.
Back in the 1970s I ran across a maybe French magazine since it was written in multiple languages but honestly, it may have been Italian. That said the magazine had one section on uniforms. They did a comparison of 1914 uniforms and in another was FPW.
The purpose was to show visibility of troops wearing different colors. Compared to the Germans, the French stood out and made easier targets.

@Lilian
According to you, the French Army between "1830 and 1914" can hardly be depicted as "chatoyante" and especially after 1871 if not as quite sober and even boring concerning the colours?

And the other armies of the time then?

How would you describe their uniforms?

Overall, the German army after 1870 before the feldgrau is certainly more 'shimmering' than the French army???

That's it, I understood, it's a heatwave at the moment and the Auvergne sun has taken a blow to your head.LOL

@TimePortalI
Yes it's true but the uniform traditions helping "Red pants are France", as well as the madder industry …

well we reach the 37° but even with -10° in winter I would use many words to describe post-1871 French uniformology but certainly not this one, I think that the Republics don't like a lot the variety and profusion of colours in military uniformology…all this monotone dominant blue…50 shades of blue to not say 5shades of blue…the US Army of that time is also much more standardised and boring, the same for the Mexican Army of the Porfiriato contrary to the previous Mexican Army of the earlier period 1825-1855 who was very 'chatoyante'

The purpose was to show visibility of troops wearing different colors. Compared to the Germans, the French stood out and made easier targets.

usual cliché forgetting that the French Infantrymen had blue capotes covering largely their bodies and the red pants…
all the Autro-Hungarian cavalry kept red pants until 1914

Yes completely agree, the blunders of the summer of 1914 were not due to the uniform, but to plan XVII, to the lack of heavy artillery which imposed a disastrous tactic.

But we digress;

Okay, let's get back to the point, which Confederate uniform was beautiful?

Beautiful is not a word , I associate with uniforms. I see the term SMART used and I like it. Volunteers were attracted to the unit with the very smart uniforms. It impressed the girls and family.
Still the highest recruiter factor was what units were located in your county and other family and friends joined.
Fanciest uniforms would have to be General outfits.

@TimePortal
Which Confederate uniform was smart?

Well after I get my leg on, I will look at my photos and give more examples.
The Smartest uniform may be that of the Athenian Military School in North Alabama. The boys mustered to repel Union raiders who had unloaded at the Tennessee River to disrupt the area. Much like the John Wayne movie Horse Soldiers. The main action was in mid-1862. After the battle, the mothers knowing that more raids were coming, burned the uniforms.
The uniform was white shirts, blue pants, red Kempis and red sashes.

@TimePortal@TimePortal
I love this scene in John Wayne's movie Horse Soldiers, unfortunately in reality it must have been more dramatic.

Why did the mothers burn the uniforms?

Their sons could fight without them.

I read recently that the French decided to abandon the red trousers in WWI after it was discovered that the red dye was manufactured in Germany.

well among others famous clichés that is supposed to be the fault of the Midi

persistent myth holds the Midi, and more particularly Vaucluse, responsible for this anachronism. In 1964 it was written: "In France we had the aberration of keeping the red trousers to save the madder crop in the southern departments." In 1978 it was specified: "If our poor guys still had to wear these red trousers which made them perfect targets, it is because of the peasants of the Midi. Because the Provençal madder producers put pressure on the government and the army so as not to lose a very lucrative livelihood. » On the internet it was still recently stated: « It is to save the culture of madder, a plant cultivated in the southern departments (…) that the French soldiers will thus be dressed until 1915 in the dazzling red trousers. »
(…)
Around 1860, Jean-Henri Fabre discovered that it was possible to do without natural madder to produce artificial garancine, an entirely artificial product called alizarin. In 1869, Berlin chemists Graebe and Lieberrmann developed the synthesis process to produce alizarin. This discovery quickly caused a drop in prices that just as quickly threatened the production of madder in Vaucluse. Attempts to diversify its use were then made around 1880, notably by Jules-Félix Pernod in the Avignon region, to produce a gum and then a fertilizer based on madder. More original, Auguste Palun failed to market madder soap, detergent and coffee. This crop was soon abandoned for good, the last madder mills ceased their activity in Vaucluse around 1885, almost 30 years before the war.

In 1898, 500 tons of madder were still cultivated in the Southwestern France, while the textile industry used 15,000 tons of alizarin. Red trousers were dyed with alizarin imported from… Germany!
(…)

Unlike all the other nations that were soon to be at war, the principle of a more discreet shade was voted the 9th July 1914. Our Pioupious went to war in an obsolete and ridiculous uniform, the Kaiser himself publicly mocked it, but with considerable stocks that were impossible to replace at short notice.

François Cochet, however, believed that we should look elsewhere for "the causes of the frightening mortality of the first months of the war", giving questionable arguments, and no doubt the question would merit a more in-depth and convincing study.

Finally, let us remember for our part that the madder red trousers of August 1914, based on economic, sentimental and traditionalist considerations of the time, owed nothing to the peasants of Vaucluse or the Midi.
link

@arthur1815
That's true because the last madder mills ceased their activity in Vaucluse around 1885, almost 30 years before the war.

@Lilian
No need for François Cochet to know that we must look elsewhere for "the causes of the frightening mortality of the first months of the war".

As I wrote above, Yes completely agree, the blunders of the summer of 1914 were not due to the uniform, but to plan XVII, to the lack of heavy artillery which imposed a disastrous tactic.

But we digress it's not a WWI topic.

Okay, let's get back to the point, which Confederate uniform was chatoyant?