"Shimmering uniform" Topic

Hello everyone,

If I understood correctly, at the beginning of the ACW, there were shimmering uniforms like those of the Zouaves, then they disappeared, but around what time?

For my part, I am still in the ACW and my dear 25 mm MiniFigs, but I fell back on the 'S' ranges which being very rare, interest me much more.

Thee were many units that had varied, unique and "shimmering" uniforms but most of them didn't last past the first few months of the war. However, some Zouave units retained their uniforms and the Union army created a whole Zouave brigade late in the war.

@Glengarry5

So by the summer of 1862 the shimmering uniforms were over?

The Union army created a whole Zouave brigade late in the war ?

Its not really true that they disappeared. Many units continued to wear bright Zouave uniforms (for the sake of this discussion, I'm including chasseur uniforms as well) for the entire war. Most units that began with full zouave uniforms (5th New York, 165th New York, 14th Brooklyn, 114th Pennsylvania, 76th Pennsylvania) kept them for the duration of their enlistment. Some regiments that only had partial or not really complete zouave uniforms, like the 23rd Pennsylvania, did transition to standard Union fatigue uniform as the war went on and the fancy uniform gave out.
It would be more accurate to say that fewer and fewer Zouave regiments were enlisted as the war went on so fewer took the field after the initial enlistment rush, rather than them disappearing because they didn't like the uniform.
Any there are a few regiments that enlisted or were given Zouave uniforms even in late 1863-1864. 146th New York, 33rd and 35th New Jersey.

hiEEEya, the "shimmering" may not quite describe what you're after. In English, it would mostly be used for fabrics which reflect light oddly, like silk, rayon or nylon. Zouave uniform would be more often described as "colorful" or "exotic."

But I agree with Glegarry5 and Cleburne1863. Non-standard uniforms were much more common in the first year of the war, with largely volunteer regiments, some with wealthy patrons. They never quite go away, but as the war goes on, increasingly the combatants are conscripts with standard government-issue uniforms. Even my beloved United States Sharp Shooters didn't always wear green.

Most did disappear. Some didn't. It happened at different times for different regiments.

@Cleburne1863
Bravo for the precision, the list of regiments concerned, it's really great, but I thought for example that from the time of Gettysburg there were no more shimmering uniforms?

TMP link

@robert piepenbrink
When I say "shimmering" I understand myself and you understood me well, let's say European or non-standard uniforms.

@Old Contemptible
As you wrote, most did disappear.

Some didn't.

It happened at different times for different regiments.

So to build a truly historical wargame army you need to know the uniformology of an army regiment by regiment at a given time.

The United States, not the regular army obviously, kept Zouaves-style uniforms and 'Zouaves' units decades after the American Civil War, even until 20th century

"So to build a truly historical wargame army you need to know the uniformology of an army regiment by regiment at a given time."

I think that sets the bar for "truly historical" a bit high. Yes, if you were only ever going to use a wargame army for, say, the second day of Gettysburg, you'd do it just that way. But since most of us plan on fighting various battles over the length of the war, it's sufficient that regiments wear uniforms which they did wear during the war, and for those of us whose units are sometimes brigades, that the uniforms are correct for the period, since they might represent a different brigade in the next game.

Nothing wrong with your approach. Just don't despair if it turns out you can never be sure just what uniform a particular regiment was wearing on your preferred day.

As for "shimmering" I entered the discussion late precisely because I didn't know what you meant from your initial post. I had to work it out from the previous discussion and your replies.

Weed's Brigade of the 5th Corps in the Army of the Potomac, 91st PA, 140th NY, 146th NY, and 155th PA, were given specially made (in France!) chasseur uniforms as a reward for their excellence in drill. There's some debate whether they got them in time for Gettysburg or if they did not get them until later, but they would have been wearing them into 1864 I would think.

This is what I would call "shimmering".
YouTube link
It goes way beyond the "Nudie Suit". Darn good song too. Freddie does the rhinestone proud.

"It happened at different times for different regiments.

So to build a truly historical wargame army you need to know the uniformology of an army regiment by regiment at a given time."

Really? During the American Revolution, the 23rd Regiment had at least 4 different uniforms. From full Warrant with fusilier cap in Boston, to pretty ragged cut down coats at Guilford Courthouse.
Is there any gamer who can outfit the 23rd throughout the entire war? Not to mention incomplete turnover.
If you're serious about what you said, you must have quite a collection.
The Continental Light Dragoons almost had a completely different uniform every year.

No, they kept on going throughout the war, even after Gettysburg. Ayer's Zouave/Regular brigade in the Army of the Potomac continued to wear their Zouave uniforms through the Overland Campaign and the rest of the war.
Many regiments, such as the 8th Missouri, 72nd Pennsylvania, etc. had fancy jackets, but not full Zouave uniforms. They also wore them for the duration of their enlistment.

"So to build a truly historical wargame army you need to know the uniformology of an army regiment by regiment at a given time."

Essentially, yes. But its a game for fun, so don't get too worried about it. Many wargamers just build units to put on the board. Unless you want to base your army as a specific army for a specific battle, like Gettysburg.

@Lilian
Oh really?

US volunteer regiments kept Zouave-style uniforms and "Zouave" units existed for decades afterward into the 20th century?

But in which wars?

During the Spanish-American War and then the Philippine-American War, also known as the Philippine Insurrection, the armed conflict that took place from 1899 to 1902 in the Philippines between the United States and the First Philippine Republic following the Spanish-American War?

@robert piepenbrink
Yes there is nothing wrong with my approach, but it is my passion for history that makes me this way.

Many other things bother me like my Confederate figurines wearing backpacks, I am not an "ACW specialist"?

But I still have the impression that the Confederate soldiers were not fond of them?

Nor maybe the Yankees?

@ScottWashburn
Specially made hunter uniforms in France as a reward for their excellence in the exercise!

You wonder if they received them in time for Gettysburg or if they only received them later and if they wore them ..?

That's not what I understood here:

TMP link

It seems that even the Iron Brigade no longer had its characteristic uniforms in 1863?

@The dumb guy
That's not "shimmering".

Shimmering is for example the uniforms of Napoleon III's army.

It would not be a question of having a sacred collection!

But just to choose for example two belligerent armies at a specific date and to be interested only in their appearances at that time…

@Cleburne1863
"No, they kept on going throughout the war, even after Gettysburg."

That's not what I understood here:

TMP link

Well, that link is almost all about Gettysburg. It even discusses the Zouaves issued uniforms in 1864 for Ayers' brigade. Other Zouaves not in the Army of the Potomac such as the 76th Pennsylvania and 165th New York also kept their uniforms until the end of their enlistment. Then you even have new Zouave regiments like the 33rd and 35th New Jersey that only enlisted in September 1863. So there were plenty of Zouaves after Gettysburg.

When you are striving to reproduce how army units looked at one particular battle you have to research on a unit by unit, and sometimes a man by man basis. Sometimes the information comes out directly and sometimes not. For example reading about how a member of the Iron Brigade was shot through the blanket roll which bruised his chest confirms that at least some in the Iron Brigade had blanket rolls at Gettysburg. Also there is plenty of evidence of Confederates with backpacks. How many had them at Gettysburg????

I am no help when it comes to U.S. Zouave uniforms on July 1, 1863. However this might be relevant to you, if not now in the near future. About ten years ago a book came out entitled Never In Rags. I haven't seen it and don't believe it is still in print, but excerpts made it to the internet. Here's some quotes you might find interesting:

Chews Battery, PENDER'S INFANTRY DIVISON, June 22nd 1863
‘Their clothing is serviceable, so also are their boots, but there is the usual utter absence of uniformity as to color and shape of their garments and hats: gray of all shades and brown clothing, with felt hats, predominate.'

RODES' INFANTRY DIVISION, Carlisle, Pennsylvania, June 27th/28th 1863
‘The passing uniforms undergoing our inspection were if not new, newish; there being no showing of torn coats and badly frayed trousers……knapsacks and haversacks, the whole personal kit, was in order; arms were at every man's command………The officer's uniforms were of a light – gray cloth, the garniture a brilliant gold galloon; the private's a dark gray with a few martial frills.'

Unidentified Confederate Unit, June 1863
‘They were clad in either butternut or grey clothes and were generally well dressed so far as comfort was concerned, but they did not present a very military appearance. Some wore hats of black, some of grey and some wore caps which we recognized as having been intended originally for use in the union army…'

I yield to none in my respect for Troiani, but certainly enough of the Iron Brigade retained Hardee hats for the brigade to be recognized as such by the Confederates. I believe it's traditionally rendered as "Loookit them black hats! Thet ain't no milishy: thet's the Army of the Potomac!"

hi EEE ya, I'm sure that youtube link wasn't what you meant, but it IS what a native speaker of English means by "shimmering." He might possibly describe Napoleon III's army as "glittering," but even at that, he'd be speaking of the polished metal.

@Cleburne1863
So there were plenty of Zouaves after Gettysburg…And as for other shimmering uniforms, what else do we find?

And the Confederates in all this?

@Bill
Yes, this is exactly the type of information that interests me, the first sources as they say…

I have one book like this called: NAPOLEON'S WATERLOO ARMY Uniforms and equipment.

A certain type of players are demoralized when they compare what can be read there with their figurines …

Just with the M.A.A.N°496 and without wanting to go into more detail, it's the same when we are interested in the uniforms of Blücher's army in 1815.

Another example, which concerns the British army in Crimea at Alma and Balaclava is downright "Hollywood", my British hordes of 'S' ranges Crimean war come straight out of the film "The Charge of the Light Brigade" which is a British film directed by Tony Richardson, released in 1968.

As luck would have it, it is also from this time that MiniFig began to produce my little darlings,

@robert Piepenbrink
In no language do "shimmering," "glittering," and "sparkling" have the same meaning, even to a native English speaker.

Flashy…exotic…both OK as descriptions of Zouave and Chasseur uniform
Shimmering…never.

I had a shimmering suit in my two tone days…

Indeed they don't hi EEE ya, though there can be some overlap in descriptions. But when you invent your own meaning for a word, don't be too surprised when you're misunderstood. Private languages have limited utility as a means of communication.

The words chatoyant must not have the same definition in different languages ?

​​Or the translation of chatoyant it would be impossible in English?

Chatoyant is the lustre of a cut gemstone…again it refers to something glistening…not a fancy uniform

Ask any professional translator, hi EEE ya. Many words in one language might be translated into any of two or three in another, depending on context, and sometimes more. Which is why machine translations remain unreliable, and we pay people.

The German "zug" means "train" in English, but it also means about 20 other things depending on context--and it only captures one meaning of the English "train"--the noun, but not the verb.

The French esprit pretty much translates one for one with the German geist, and in English we might describe something haunting a house as either a "spirit" or a "ghost." But if you described the ghost of an age or the ghost animating a regiment, you'd get some pretty odd looks, even though a German would use "geist" in both those contexts.

Languages are tricky. And just when you think you're getting somewhere, the meaning changes on you. I've got English-language books on my shelves using words with meanings you'd be hard-pressed to find in a good dictionary today.

@bobm1959
Chatoyant which is a French word does not mean "the brilliance of a cut gemstone nor does it refer to something sparkling…"

@robert piepenbrink
I completely agree with you, but chatoyant which is a French word precisely describes all the uniforms of the French army from 1830 to 1914 and it also corresponds very well to the uniforms of certain American regiments at the start of the ACW.

I think in English the word you are looking for is flashy. Or flamboyant.

I think Cleburne's right. And the fact that we have to dig a little or go to a slang term probably tells you something about English.

@Cleburne1863
Flashy is more for clothes nowadays not for military uniforms, even brightly colored ones, like in the 19th century.

What about flamboyant, it's also a French word that has nothing to do with chatoyant.

In fact in my opinion there is no equivalent in English to the word chatoyant.

@robert piepenbrink
From now on I will put the French words untranslatable in English, in French.

The uniform of the Chasseurs à pied is certainly not chatoyant or shimering, rather all the opposite, quite sober, as most of the French Army between 1830 and 1914, even the flamboyants Hussars lost their lustre after 1860/1870

@Lilian
Oh really?

US volunteer regiments kept Zouave-style uniforms and "Zouave" units existed for decades afterward into the 20th century?

But in which wars?

During the Spanish-American War and then the Philippine-American War, also known as the Philippine Insurrection, the armed conflict that took place from 1899 to 1902 in the Philippines between the United States and the First Philippine Republic following the Spanish-American War?

none, they remained only in their respective States as part of National Guard or militia for parades, exercices or the 4th july

So, someone from France is correcting me on my English?
Well, if you don't think Freddie Hart is "shimmering", try Webb Pierce, Porter Wagner or Little Jimmy Dickens. Or Gram Parsons. Or Marty Stuart. Google "Nudie Suit" to see real "shimmering".
Sheesh.

Alabama had some militia/ volunteer companies which wore Zouave uniforms. The Tuskegee Zouaves of 4th Rgt. And the Eufalau Zouaves of the 15th Rgt.
They wore them at Muster camp and to their posting location but I am not sure about being in a battle.

@Lilian
The French army never had such beautiful uniforms as between 1830-1914 and in the early period this was the case for many other European armies too.

@TimePortal
Yes, but the Confederate Zouaves had uniforms less chatoyant than those of the Yankees.

"The French army never had such beautiful uniforms as between 1830-1914…"

Nah. I'll grant you things go straight downhill in 1914, but for me the end is 1870. What sort of people would put all their hussar regiments in the same color dolman? OK, yes, the British. But it's just not right.

"Once war was glorious, and men wore uniforms which would shame a peacock. Now it was only necessary, and men wore uniforms the color of mud."
--Michael Flynn, "The Forest of Time."

Si, si the French army never had such beautiful uniforms as between 1830-1914…

In conclusion there would be uniforms until the end of the war yet that's not what I understood here:

TMP link

Who to trust?

Again, most of that thread is about Gettysburg. Anybody that tells you that Zouave uniforms disappeared after 1863 is just wrong. Sorry, they just are.

14th Brooklyn (84th New York) had their chasseur uniform until they mustered out in 1864.

Ayers' Fifth Corp brigade had Zouave uniforms in half the brigade for the Overland Campaign in 1864 until the units mustered out or the war ended. The other half were US Regulars.
155th Pennsylvania
91st Pennsylvania
140th New York
146th New York

The 76th Pennsylvania had their Zouave uniforms until the end of the war. 10th, 18th, 24th Corps.

The 114th Pennsylvania had their Zouave uniforms until the end of the war. They served as Meade's provost guard after their casualties at Gettysburg. There is a whole series of photos of them in their Zouave uniforms in 1864.

The 165th New York (2nd Battalion Duryée's Zouaves) kept their uniforms for the whole war. They were in the 19th Corps.

The 5th New York Veteran Volunteer Regiment was made from members of the original 5th New York Zouaves, as well as new recruits and men from the 12th and 84th New York that re-enlisted. They wore a full Zouave uniform and served in the 5th Corps in Virginia starting in May 1864 through the end of the war.

The 17th New York Veteran Volunteers were made from re-enlisted veterans of the 17th New York, 9th New York Zouaves, 11th and 38th New York. They wore a uniform similar to the original 9th New York. They served in the 16th Corps at the end of the Atlanta Campaign, March to the Sea, and the Carolinas.

The 33rd and 35th New Jersey were mustered into service in September and October 1863 respectively. After Gettysburg. They wore a Zouave uniform for their entire service to the end of the war. The 33rd was in the 20th Corps, and the 35th in the 16th Corps.

@Cleburne1863
Well done to you at least, you seem to know about it, but reassure me, when you talk about US Regulars in the Ayers' Fifth Corp brigade, you're not talking about the 155th Pennsylvania, 91st Pennsylvania, 140th New York and 146th New York?

Now some Zouave regiments had uniforms that were more or less Zouave and the Zouave regiments must have been very different from each other.

Also before doing uniform research – regiment by regiment – for example for Gettysburg (unless there is a website for that) we would need to know all the regiments that wore them!

At Gettysburg for example, we would also need to know what other chatoyant uniforms there were apart from those of the Zouaves?

There may still have been regiments in French Chasseurs à Pied uniforms and other types of uniforms, but the chatoyant uniforms of what other types of troops?

And it's the same for the Confederates:
TMP link

That link you posted lists all the regiments at Gettysburg that wore Zouave, chassuer, or unique uniforms. I'm not going to repost it here.

The US Regulars in Ayers' brigade wore standard federal uniforms.
2nd US
7th US
11th US
14th US
17th US

@Cleburne1863
Bravo !

Only some Yankee infantry units had chatoyant uniforms?

Since no rebel units had shimmering uniforms, what about Yankee cavalry, artillery and engineer units?

Still a language barrier. I have no idea what you mean by chatoyant or shimmering (in this context).

Why not stick to specific types like zouave or chasseur instead of adjectives to describe their physical properties. That would be much better.

@Cleburne1863
Yes but there are French words that cannot be translated into English.

Then use English common words on an English language message board. You will get better results.

@Cleburne1863
I do what I can.

@Cleburne1863
Chatoyant means nice uniforms…

It was easy to understand…

Not if you don't speak French.

Unfortunately, 'nice' is a very subjective term.
I might think a uniform was 'nice' because it was simple, functional and practical – quick and cheap to make, easy to put on/off, easily recognised in the field to avoid 'friendly fire', keep clean and repair, kept the wearer comfortable in hot weather and warm in cold.
IMHO, the Zouave uniform does satisfy many of these criteria!

@Cleburne1863
Yes,alas it's the language barrier as they say.

@arthur1815
Yes, 'nice' is a very subjective term.

It depends on each person's taste.

Just spotted my typo!
I meant: IMHO the Zouave uniform does NOT satisfy many of these criteria!

@arthur1815
I think that the Zouaves and Turcos as well as the tirailleurs Senegalais founded in 1857 had style.