"French 1809 Fanions" Topic

Well, I have had my third go round of Google "tmp french fanions" into exhaustion over past few months.

Has anyone ever come to a consensus on 1809? Dusty cobweb answers and educated deductions are findable if a guy were doing pre 1808 or 1812+, but what about the 1809 campaign. Has anyone done theirs in a way they feel comfortable beyond yeah looks good enough? Which I don't knock, but at this point it is an itch to scratch on principle.

Obliquely related, I recently purchased Gill on Kindle. I am not a fan of reading books on digital devices. However I realized Kindle has a search function, which has been great for those three volumes {"fanion" produced zero results in all three volumes by the way)

PS. An aside as well, part of it is for upcoming work on Oudinots mass of 4th battalions. I am not sure why they would be any different, but in case that assumption is wrong and this paragraph dings anyone's bells, there it is.

I have always wondered why some armies used them, others don't. We're they even universal in a army like France?
Seems all a forgotten mystery

Well for the french only the first bat of a regiment had an eagle and colors after a certain early point, and the second eagles were (supposed to be) turned in to depot. The rest should have fanions. It goes below level of detail I model so I am no expert on it, but also company fanions and flank fanions (the little musket flags)

Even that is muddy though until 1811 or so for line and even later for the legere situation. But eh.

For most all of the Napoleonic era, all French battalions having eagles and regimental colors is technically "incorrect." I don't really knock anything other people do on their models at all, but doing specific to battalion 1:1 structure for OOB of 1809 (especially when the three main bats were brigaded together) my OCD is kicking in.

Hi

If this is any help

Le Plume Rigo 166 features Oudiots Reserve Grenadiers and has pictures of Fanions and thier holders. Link to the notes and plate

link

link

There may be other Fanions in this collection, not had chance to work through them all yet

cheers

ps not 1809, so not exactly the right response, but you may find more info via the links on Le Plume Rigo et al

cheers

Thank you very much. I appreciate any help. That tricolor is dated at 1809. Interesting.

The confusing thing at first, and I am more than happy to be corrected, the "Oudinot Grenadiers" actually were Grenadier and Caribinier up until 1809. For the Austrian campaign, they were simply brigaded 4ths. There is not much difference between Puthod's division in the 3rd Corps and the bulk of Oudinots corps besides the use of the term Demi Brigade. Which I think as mostly title, along with adding Corses and Po, to give a little espirit to them, and a tradition possibly. I always see it very similar to Charles and the Landwehr. There was a lot of arms race to simply bring the roster up in number.

See discussion of Fanions and illustrations at TMP link

Also see TMP link which links into flagdude who has fanions for 1809. GMB sets out which packs relate to which year etc.

Thanks. I have read that thread a few times, and have the images you posted saved.

The thing that throws me off is in 1809 it is only three battalions, not seven. Maybe this would work fine backwards to 1809. Maybe I am just thinking too hard. It would be nice to have some reference, but maybe best to settle with imagination. I am fine if that is the best solution, really. Just thought I'd give the whole thing one last oomph.

My understanding is that for 1809 every battalion issued an eagle in 1804 should still have it. My copy of Charrie is packed right now but he shows in his list of regiments' Eagles and Standards renvoyet au depot generally in mid 1812 (before the campaign, so only one eagle plus fanions in the field for the 1812 campaign). This doesn't account for the 4th battalions in II Corps 1809. Best I've seen is the plate referred to up thread. For the reserve division in Davout's corps, see if they were in oudinot's grenadiers in 1807?
Best I can do

My French Napoleonic's are Tharreau's division from Oudinot's II corps at Wagram. I did a lot of searching before painting them about 2 years ago and couldn't find anything specific. So I did a mixture of mostly GMBs 'non standard fanions' and a few standard issue colours, plus the eagle and colour for Tr Corse.

Having reviewed "Eagle and Fanion organization" at TMP link and re-reading the 1808 decree on reorganisation of battalions, I would conclude no fanions for 1809, just a standard of some sort.
"Each war battalion will have a standard carried by a non-commissioned officer chosen by the chief in one of the companies of this battalion."

Wait wait wait. Wait…

Okay what the hell is going on here. I am suddenly questioning everything in this decree (I will get back to the fanions)

"Our line infantry and light infantry regiments will in future consist of a headquarters and five battalions; the first four will be called war battalions and the fifth, the depot battalion."

"Each depot battalion will consist of four companies. " (Pointing out no Grenadier)

"The depot battalions will be established in the garrisons indicated in the attached table. They will only be able to leave these garrisons by virtue of a formal order on our part."

This was signed by Napoleon himself way back in Feb 1808.

Have I been living a lie and the 4ths in the 1809 OOB are not depot battalions at all? My mind is a bit blown if so. It is possible I guess, that this simply had not taken effect yet. Now that I think of it, I have read reference that the 4ths in the demi brigades had Grenadier. I just haven't paid it much mind as I do not model that low yet.

I suppose it is possible that my mistake is misunderstanding they were simply rushed to field in terms of the men they contained. It is mostly semantics as well, but it goes completely against my understanding, to the point I will gladly admit such a silly mistake out of shock.

My memory is not the type to hold specific sources well, but I know for sure I have read several of 3 bats 1 depot in 1809. I will have to keep an eye out.

Anyway, back to fanions.

First off, I am possibly too loosely using the terms fanion and standard. Although this is the first time I am actively made aware of it, I think I subconsciously use the term "fanion" more as a work tool, and non-color. A glory-less tool of marking and moving a body of men. Not as much it's shape or size. This is something I have sussed out from reading I suppose but could be wrong.

PoE – I understand – that the "fanion" of 2nd-7th battalion solid fields is probably wrong for 1809 – to take the first 3 of those colors and apply them for 1809 is probably not correct, and likely some sort of simplified lozenge, as Mr Wilson above also agrees in that thread. I have a feeling it may have also been a bit like contemporary drummer uniform fashion – they probably didn't all look the same.

Mark Wilson – I will continue my reading and digesting the material a bit, but will likely land on something like that. My main goal is to merge accuracy with playability, so it may be I combine the ideas of the simplified lozenge and color fanion for 2-3. Maybe third will be a standard of no lozenge or something.

I could as well just do whatever the heck, but I enjoy learning and figuring it out best, plus it is one luxury of not getting much time to model.

For Oudinots, as of this post I think I will likely run with the 1809 dated flag posted above, doing something creative but appropriate.

Some day I am satisfied enough to actually design these, will return and post them.

Thanks as always for everyone's additions and help.

Several uniform books back in the 1970s talked about the use on fanions in the French army. They even gave the breakdown of what it looked like for each battalion.